Jon Snow (Spoilers)

[evita mgfs]

"Oh you think he's dead do you?" GRRM :cool4:

I've been convinced - but come on? If his bones remember? Add Jon's 'spirit' in Ghost returning to HIS bones? He may be dead but he LIVES! [Martin has it all covered - either way his story takes him, his plot - his "bones" - the framework of his story - the song of ice and fire - Remember - and sometimes, rarely, even he "forgets", like the truth long forgotten in Winterfell].

[King Hodor of Westeros]

Martin emphasizes Jon Snow’s “Stark look” so much throughout the series that I doubt Jon’s ‘physical’ body will die; however, if it does, Mel has already established that “the bones remember” – which is substantiated in Bran’s POV with Brynden Rivers and the dead bones of assorted COF, greenseers, singers, enthroned in the vaults, buried in the roots of trees and earth to sing in a language men forgot but the trees remember – yet some of those singers also live on in the ravens, as Bran experiences.

V6S also proves that the bones remember – but after time, as Haggon says, “‘They say you forget,’ Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. ‘When the man’s flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades and the beast becomes a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains” (12).

“V6S knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell’s, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence Orell had been slain by the turncloak Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that V6S found himself hating the beastling boy as well” (12).

Before V6S joins with One-Eye, his “spirit” travels into the weirwood, into earth, and stone, etc.. If V6S did not have the warging gift, he would have met the fate established by the COF.

However, Martin foreshadows, or intimates, Jon warging Ghost when V6S thinks,

“Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king” (12). That is, if Jon is Lyanna’s and Rhaegar’s, or if Jon is the Prince Who Is Promised, or if Robb named Jon King of the North, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North, and dismissed his crow vows.

So –Jon will warg Ghost –

Mance boasts about accessing Jon’s window in the armory – Ghost exits via window [Jon, like Ned, oft opened windows]; and since Martin details the drifting snow – the jump from the armory escape is made easier with less of a distance to scale – Ghost’s leap will be buffered by the snow, as Martin established when Theon and Jeyne Poole jumped from the Walls of Winterfell.

And since Ghost is an agent of Brynden Rivers, i.e., Bran’s POV: “In a sense . . . Those you call the COF have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those chosen to receive the gift. The chosen are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of anient trees. Greenseers’” (452).

This leads me to believe that Ghost’s wolf instincts will trump Jon’s human instincts, and he will head for Bran’s cave [Martin already established that Ghost knows how to get around the Wall – he did so to reunite with Jon to convince him to deny Stannis’s offer – for Ghost’s red eyes and white fur were the ‘old gods’ and Jon refused to give up his old gods] instead of Winterfell. [Although I like the irony of ‘a Ghost in Winterfell’].

I am not suggesting Jon has greensight; as BR says, ‘blood’ makes one a greenseer, so IF Jon is half Targ, I don’t think he qualifies – but that can be argued against as well.

I do think there will most certainly be a Ghost POV in WOW – in which he will travel to Bran. Guided by Mormont’s raven and then perhaps “the murder of ravens” who guided Bran’s journey. Martin hints at a parallel journey for Jon similar to Bran’s – i.e., Ghost will meet V6S, but kill One-Eye.

Jon’s Stark body will be preserved in his absence – that is, his bones will not be burned. As predicted in a Bran dream, he sees Jon in ice cells. Whether Jon truly dies, I am not sure. Does it matter if HIS Bones Remember?

At some point, Ghost will need to return Jon to his body before Jon becomes the beast and forgets his spirit [Haggon and V6S]. Either way, Jon will reanimate his body – whether he is kept alive or whether he is dead. [Martin establishes groundwork for either fate].

I fancy a dead Jon, or sexy vampire, not the wights or Others. Jon will be a ‘new’ species – one born of a warg reanimating his former host, one that is dead. Since the COF live in ravens whose eyes hold secrets yet their bones remember, so Jon, under Bran’s tutelage, will learn – for the power is strong in both.

I think that John will be officially "dead" until about 1/4 of the way through the book, but then Melisandre will be doing her own thing with her fires and will then resurrect Jon Snow, who's been inside Ghost's body all this time, and he will come back and be reborn in her fires as Azor Ahai, and that he'll have red eyes as a mark of this (Ygritte may have played the role of Nissa Nissa), and Longclaw will be Lightbringer, and then he's gonna march south with a wildling army to retake Winterfell, and then return to the Wall to fend off the wights and the Others.

[King Hodor of Westeros]

I wonder what would happen if Jon Snow became king of Westeros?

[bemused]

I don't think Jon is dead , and I don't think he's destined for resurrection , or even healing by Melisandre.

I think Val will prove to be a priestess /prophetess / seer of the old gods ( though not a healer, since she wanted to get the midwife for Dalla). She refers Jon to a woods witch for the truth about greyscale... A woods witch healed Mance... Witches seem to be known as healers, and some have some skill as seers.... I think Morna the Warrior Witch ( who swore personally to Jon by kissing his hand - which could imply she thinks he is ,or will be an important , or elevated figure ) may well have some expertise with knife wounds ... As one of the wildling leaders, she could have been at the sheildhall. Or if not , they could keep Jon cold so as to inhibit bleeding , while she's sent for .

[Ilyn Payne]

IMO, Jon is going to drift in dreams like Bran when Jaime dropped him, then wake up somehow after two pages of drug-high-like visions. In this process, he should finally learn more about the warg thing control. This is not even a theory, but I'd just like to see Jon controling Wun Wun like Bran does with Hodor. :)

Of course being stabbed sometimes is awful, but I doubt the brothers stabbed him that much with a giant bearing a knight as a bloody club besides then. And Jon could survive naturally, with the help of the wildlings healing lore.

And lastly, the theory of Jon "Phoenix" Azor Ahai cleaving the Walkers with a flaming greatsword, whilst verycool, would be completely out of GRRM style, I think.

[Big Daddy Dave]

Jon's not going to die. And he's NOT going to lose his body. At most he'll warg into ghost for a chapter, then come back when his body is healed. This would be enough to let him know more about his abilities he hasn't been developing, and probably act as a way for him to finally discover what's going on with his brother Bran. This whole thing has to accomplish something, and it sure isn't Jon losing his body and becoming an animal. That is not only redundant because it's already Bran's story, but he obviously has his own path among men.

What this near death experience COULD accomplish, and be much more useful for, is moving the story ahead by getting pertinent information from Bran to Jon. If everything happens in two books, the ball needs to start rolling pretty quickly here, and the Stark Family is litterally all over the map.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

< snip >

A bit late for this thread and I'm sure many have already said what I'm about to say but ehh...

"King's blood can raise the dragons from stone" or whatever, right? Melisandre always says this. If Jon is a "dragon" (which I find very likely), then I think the blood sacrifice was already hinted in the sample chapter of TWoW, when Asha urged Stannis to give Theon to the heart tree. We find out in ADWD (thanks to Bran and Davos POVs) that blood sacrifice to the Old Gods were indeed practised back in the old days, and seeing as the "old powers have awakened" now, I believe Theon's (son of Balon the King of the Iron Islands) will help Jon get resurrected.

By Mel or Bloodraven, I cannot say.

[evita mgfs]

In rereading ACoK, when Renley is stabbed with the glamor sword that is the shadow of Stannis, Martin writes, "'Cold,' said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there" (502).

Martin writes in Dance, "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold . . ." (913).

I think when Jon feels the Cold, it means death.

But he will be in Ghost, so take heart:

"And suddenly Ghost was back, stalking softly between two weirwoods. White fur and red eyes. Jon realized, disquieted. Like the trees . . ." (GoT 522).

The heart trees contain the old gods, including Bran and BR and CoF. So Jon will be in very good hands as Ghost until he returns to his dead body with the power to rise anew.

[wolfmaid7]

I like this thread....Here is my crackpot theory ehem

This is Jon first death, i think he will go on a Six skins type trip where he is in every thing at once. On this crazy trip he will find out that Bran is alive,he might even get a sense of(Arya) Nymeria. Rickon and Shaggy are too far from the wall, he won't get a sense of them. The connection will be brief only for Bran to tell him that he must go to the crypts.He will eventually warg into Ghost last!

When he does warg into Ghost it will be in time to see that his body is going to be burnt-NW fear he will come back as a walker- While his body is on the Pyre every body excepts Mel and the Wildlings remain to watch out of respect,Ghost/Jon will bound up next to Mel and watch his body burn. The wildlings pray to the old gods(cold) and mel to her R'hollor( fire) a standard funerary prayer. Their all sad and the fire is going out it gets real smokey and Jon senses his body is more or less unharmed he emerges completely naked for Mel and the wildlings to see.

Some small thing in his features and Ghost's swap,I'd like to see something very subtle for instance he and Ghost swap eye color.

[Black Crow]

I still have a lot of trouble with the Jon in Ghost theory. First it was made pretty clear in the Varamyr prologue that when a warg dies his spirit transfers to a familiar and lives out his (or her) second life there, gradually fading into the host and unable to warg anywhere else, ie; if his original body is dead he can't warg back into it.

Resurrection by Mel a la Thoros says you, well no. In the first place the body is still dead, but more importantly the resurrection magic whether by ice or fire appears to involve both arresting the decay at the point when the magic is done and awakening the spirit sleeping within the body. If Jon's in Ghost, there's nobody home and the body can't be awakened - just as Varamyr's body wasn't with Thistle and the other wights at the end of the prologue.

As to Jon remaining in Ghost, as I've said before that would be a touch limiting - one bark for yes, two barks for no...

I have therefore to go with GRRM's "you think he's dead do you?" and answer probably not. He's certainly badly wounded and he may well be about to spend some time in Ghost, but his body is probably still alive, prevented from bleeding out by the cold - preserved - and he's about to get a visit from the Three Eyed Crow.

[bemused]

Black crow ..I agree your scenario is far more likely...with the wounded body being tended by Val and Morna.;)

[mushroomshirt]

I still have a lot of trouble with the Jon in Ghost theory. First it was made pretty clear in the Varamyr prologue that when a warg dies his spirit transfers to a familiar and lives out his (or her) second life there, gradually fading into the host and unable to warg anywhere else, ie; if his original body is dead he can't warg back into it.

Resurrection by Mel a la Thoros says you, well no. In the first place the body is still dead, but more importantly the resurrection magic whether by ice or fire appears to involve both arresting the decay at the point when the magic is done and awakening the spirit sleeping within the body. If Jon's in Ghost, there's nobody home and the body can't be awakened - just as Varamyr's body wasn't with Thistle and the other wights at the end of the prologue.

As to Jon remaining in Ghost, as I've said before that would be a touch limiting - one bark for yes, two barks for no...

I have therefore to go with GRRM's "you think he's dead do you?" and answer probably not. He's certainly badly wounded and he may well be about to spend some time in Ghost, but his body is probably still alive, prevented from bleeding out by the cold - preserved - and he's about to get a visit from the Three Eyed Crow.

At the risk of repeating myself, Mel's POV chapter talks about Jon surrounded by skulls going from man to wolf to man again. Exact quote is:

"The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen."

This paragraph seems to be talking exactly about Jon's being stabbed. I suppose it is possible that going from man to wolf to man again could be describing the fact that he is a warg generally and not talking specifically about warging into ghost after he is stabbed. But I think it is more likely given the proximity of these sentences that going from man to wolf to man again has to do with the daggers in the dark.

[Titus Andronicus]

You say "spoilers", but that thread name is still pretty damn spoilery...

[evita mgfs]

At the risk of repeating myself, Mel's POV chapter talks about Jon surrounded by skulls going from man to wolf to man again. Exact quote is:

"The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen."

This paragraph seems to be talking exactly about Jon's being stabbed. I suppose it is possible that going from man to wolf to man again could be describing the fact that he is a warg generally and not talking specifically about warging into ghost after he is stabbed. But I think it is more likely given the proximity of these sentences that going from man to wolf to man again has to do with the daggers in the dark.

"The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen."

I think you may have something here if we look at these sentences, which I parsed because of the significance of the wording. These words are smartly written, and I think they give evidence to what you say.

First, note that Martin employs a theatre motif with Mel, her glamors that disguise people in costume and Martin’s language denotes a staged show:

she heard the whispered name Jon Snow

1. Whispering is associated with the theatre for an audience must be silent, and if they speak, their words should be whispers.
   
   
2. Actors whisper back stage giving directions and preparing for their entrance, etc.
   

a fluttering curtain.

1. Her flames are the stage lighting
   
   
2. as well as the curtains that open to reveal the performance area, or Mel’s prophetic visions.
   

Appearing and disappearing

A magician makes things disappear and reappear:

a shadow half-seen behind

I immediately thought SHADE from Homer. Look at what the Wiki says:

1. In literature and poetry, a shade (translating Greek σκι&#940; Latin umbra) can be taken to mean the spirit or ghost of a dead person, residing in the underworld.
   
   
2. The image of an underworld where the dead live in shadow is common to the Ancient Near East, in Biblical Hebrew expressed by the term tsalmaveth, literally "death-shadow" The Witch of Endor in the First Book of Samuel notably conjures the ghost (owb) of Samuel.
   
   
3. Perhaps Mel’s vision, in this context, tells us that Jon Snow is DEAD when she sees him – he is already a shade. [she cannot see the death-shadow accurately]
   
   
4. Her vision is speaking to the fact that Jon is wolf = wolf is Jon.
   

Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again

1. Mel misinterprets her vision. Jon in death will move from JON to WOLF; then WOLF will move back to JON.
   
   
2. Martin intimates this will be done magically – for the theatre terms indicate it is like a magic show – so abracadabra! Jon is dead. Jon is Ghost.
   
   
3. In theatre, these would be interchangeable masks: Ghost returns Jon to Ghost.
   

Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark.

Mel sees how Jon died,[but she doesn't ealize it] as well as the men who killed him. [she earlier offered to give him their names].

Since the entire context of this passage is a magic show in miniature, whose magic will “assist” Ghost in return Jon back to his dead body?

The most logical choice is Ghost – with the help of his own brother Bran. Bran knows – the birds always mentioned in the rafters of the halls are keeping an eye on what’s going on.

Ghost = BR = Bran =CoF=Weirwood trees and their faces=the old gods.

After breaking down the wording here, it seems clearer now that she misinterpreted what she sees, as she has before.

Do not flame me, please! I never saw anyone break this down before in theatrical terms. It is deliberate, for Martin also connects Braavos with masks and whispers, and we all know who is performing on stage there? Wearing masks of her own?

[Cliche Guevara]

You say "spoilers", but that thread name is still pretty damn spoilery...

I don't think anyone that goes out of their way to enter the Winds of Winter subforum has any right to complain about spoilers.

Anyways, I'm torn about what will happen to Jon. I definitely think he'll spend some time in Ghost, but I don't know if his body will completely die or not. I can see him having a coma/three eyed crow experience like Bran after his fall, and I can also see the Theon sacrifice at a weirdwood scenario playing out. It could also be something unique and original that we can't necessarily predict.

Also, while it's hard for me to believe that Jon didn't see a drastic reaction coming from some of his brothers for his decision to leave the Wall for Winterfell, I highly doubt he had some elaborate ruse plan that predicted exactly what would happen after the shieldhall. We don't know what he and Tormund talked about for those two hours, but I don't think it involved Mel or any glamors, and I don't think it came off flawlessly. That's not GRRM's style.

[Black Crow]

...Do not flame me, please! I never saw anyone break this down before in theatrical terms. It is deliberate, for Martin also connects Braavos with masks and whispers, and we all know who is performing on stage there? Wearing masks of her own?

I like your analysis - a lot - but would differ, if at all in requiring Jon to be physically dead. I don't have any problem with Jon warging into Ghost and back again "Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again" really can't be interpreted in any other way, but as Varmayr's prologue would appear to preclude him skipping back into his own body if he has died, the conclusion has to be that although badly wounded he's not dead.

[Black Crow]

Also, while it's hard for me to believe that Jon didn't see a drastic reaction coming from some of his brothers for his decision to leave the Wall for Winterfell, I highly doubt he had some elaborate ruse plan that predicted exactly what would happen after the shieldhall. We don't know what he and Tormund talked about for those two hours, but I don't think it involved Mel or any glamors, and I don't think it came off flawlessly. That's not GRRM's style.

According to GRRM there was nothing exciting discussed. He just needed to move the story forward by a couple of hours.

[evita mgfs]

I like your analysis - a lot - but would differ, if at all in requiring Jon to be physically dead. I don't have any problem with Jon warging into Ghost and back again "Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again" really can't be interpreted in any other way, but as Varmayr's prologue would appear to preclude him skipping back into his own body if he has died, the conclusion has to be that although badly wounded he's not dead.

What about Bran and the old gods? If he is dead, cannot their magic restore him to his dead body? I understand perfectly where you are coming from as well.

According to what GRRM said, which you quoted, as a teacher I oft made remarks like this to my students when they began papers, I made this type of comment:

So you think you have good evidence? And it was usually to get them to think more deeply - without me spelling it out for them, IMO. But I can see it meaning they are on track as well. I think GRRM's quote is another red herring. He really gave nothing away, IMO. :dunno:

[Ilyn Payne]

Whatever happens, Jon still is in the game. When he is back, probably the NW will be a mess as the wildlings are in the southern part of the Wall and Jon's will was the only thing that prevented big fights.

Anyway, Bowen and Yarwick heads will be spiked and the NW will be commanded by a cold, even more badass, true warg, half-wildling Jon who I think will restore the NW to the glory of the old days. And this remembers me of that Night's King...

[Little Wing]

<snip>

I have therefore to go with GRRM's "you think he's dead do you?" and answer probably not. He's certainly badly wounded and he may well be about to spend some time in Ghost, but his body is probably still alive, prevented from bleeding out by the cold - preserved - and he's about to get a visit from the Three Eyed Crow.

I agree with this. The wounds he suffered do not have to be mortal. The cold that he feels may be Others coming. The time he spends in Ghost he won't spend as dead but mayhaps comatose, like Bran was, when he was visited by the 3EC, so yeah, this.