Heresy 19

[romantic]

I think the GRRM interview about Brandon having a Bastard (or more) is indicative of Ramsey being Brandon's Bastard, not Bolton's. You have to remember your name, lil Ramsey. I think that makes sense more than Brandon & Lyanna.

I was going to suggest that Domeric was Brandon's bastard, which would explain why:-

1. Domeric was considered a decent person

2. Roose didn't seem that concerned by Domeric's death (or that it might have been at Ramsay's hands), and

3. Roose hates the Starks (though that probably has a longer history than 25 years).

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

A couple of thoughts to keep the pot boiling before I launch Heresy 19 later tonight:

Once again the ongoing forensic re-read of AGoT has turned up something significant. We've been talking about how things are "different" beyond the Wall and how there are hints that the Others/White Walkers are perhaps more of a piece of the furniture up there than most people believe. Here's Osha speaking to Bran about why she came south. Its a passage which has been quoted before in relation to the link between White Walkers and rangers, but not in full...

"The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back... or if they do, they're not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember."

Its not quite the story we've been told about Mance, but that's neither here nor there. The interesting bit is the pretty clear statement that the White Walkers (and perhaps the wights too) regularly come in the long winters.

Perhaps the Free Folk have kept tighter reigns on their oral history?

I don't believe they have a written language... aside from some old runes, which few if any can use....that's really all they have.

South of the Wall, even those with the blood of the First Men, now have written language, libraries, textual collections of history/lore. That naturally causes oral history to deteriorate rapidly. There's no need to retain history through the telling of stories... so the stories are told by fewer and fewer people, like Old Nan. Many are lost to the ages.

Without libraries/written word... it is quite likely that some of the Free Folk know far more about the old races than we've ever imagined. I bet that Mother Mole character would be able to fill in quite a few blanks for us. I had hoped that Tormund would pass more of that along to Jon.

[7V3N]

***

[A] Regarding Mance, The Osha paragraph quoted on the previous thread explicitly states that the White Walkers are not like Rangers. That White Walkers are like Rangers is one of BC's favorite theories.

{B} Regarding Mance, Osha says he has not tasted winter. Sansa has tasted winter.

[C] Regarding Mance, the story Halfhand relates sounds like the story Mance relates, was told, or retells. Osha suggests he was always a crow. This suggests to me that Mance was a northern bastard--probably Rickard's or Bloodraven's--and was sent to the wall or kept on the wall as an infant onward. When Mance was old enough to ask questions, he was spun the story that the Halfhand relates because no one was allowed to tell him the truth. He took that story for his own, but methinks he probably found out the truth through other means.

[D] Regarding the Last Hero and the Faerie tradition of pledging service to the Faerie queen until something unlikely happens, this makes me think of Bloodraven--perhaps this is why he is 'in service' to the tree. It also makes me think that the prophecy Rhaegar came across was not so much a prophecy, but perhaps the terms of the agreement between the Last Hero and the Faerie Queen, and the only way to free the Last Hero from her service is for the unlikely thing to occur. This suggests the last hero is still alive, in service to the Great Other Queen, and his suffering is the horrible thing that Bran saw in the court of the Faerie Queen when he looked through the veil of winter.

***

[E] New heresy: has anyone suggested that the Three Eyed Crow is the Last Hero?

[A] BC has said they are like the rangers OF THE SIDHE. Describing their role, not their ability. There is a very clear difference. Osha clearly meant NW rangers. Osha means that they are nothing like the rangers they've faced, since wildlings have constant had to fight with rangers of the NW.

"The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back... or if they do, they're not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember."

So there is no mistake by BC there (or so I believe, he can speak for himself).

{B} Not sure what you are getting at here. I think, given context, Osha is implying a metaphorical meaning as in, "He has not survived a real harsh Winter." I do not think Osha was thinking Mance needs to go catch a snowflake on his tongue.

[C] I don't know about Rickard's or Bloodraven's because we have no reason to believe they would have had bastards, and that they would somehow be Mance's father. Brandon would be too young to be the father too. I am also unsure why Mance would develop a story about where he came from, and one so easy to foil considering most men at the Wall stay at the Wall (oaths are for life). I'm sure there were plenty of bastards at the Wall.

[D] Cue Black Crow.

[E] The three-eyed crow is Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven. He is way too young to be the Last Hero. He is one of Aegon the Unworthy's Great Bastards.

[WintersKing]

This isn't really related to this specific Heresy, but we've discussed a lot of Scandinavian and British mythology, why don't we take a look at some Arthurian legend? I realized today the similarity between the names Lancel and Lancelot. In Arthurian legend, while Arthur is away at war (I think) Lancelot sleeps with Gwenovere (Arthurs Queen). Anyway, I was struck by the similarities between that and what happens between Lancel, Cersei, and Jaime. Has anyone else noticed the influence of Arthurian legend on Martin's work?

Nice catch. I find this interesting not because of Arthurian legend, but because during the War of the Roses they were waiting for his rebirth. I'm somewhat unsure about that, but I recall reading that somewhere. It makes me question whether TPTWP or AAR will actually make the series or will die before he/she can make an impact. It makes me wonder if Rhaegar was actually TPTWP.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but thought this was the place to bring that up.

[Striker83]

-Does anyone know where else in the books, apart from Jon's dream,are the Starks are referred as the kings of winter?

- Something that has been bothering me is how could only the Starks and the wildlings defeated the NK if he had allied himself with the Others, who previously couldn't been defeated even when all the kingdoms of the first men united against them. What were the Others really trying to do when they breach the pact, granted we don't know what were the terms of the pact but I think considering what happened they must had breach the pact, they know controlled the Wall, why they didn't attack in force like they did the first time?

-This is no heresy and I don't know if it has already been mention, but When reading Theon's chapter with Lady Dustin they talk about her husband and how Ned told her that he die bravely and is buried in the red mountains of Dorne, meaning that he was one of the six companions that went with Ned to the Tower of Joy.

[7V3N]

-Does anyone know where else in the books, apart from Jon's dream,are the Starks are referred as the kings of winter?

Maege Mormont calls Robb the King of Winter, IIRC.

[mrazny]

This isn't really related to this specific Heresy, but we've discussed a lot of Scandinavian and British mythology, why don't we take a look at some Arthurian legend? I realized today the similarity between the names Lancel and Lancelot. In Arthurian legend, while Arthur is away at war (I think) Lancelot sleeps with Gwenovere (Arthurs Queen). Anyway, I was struck by the similarities between that and what happens between Lancel, Cersei, and Jaime. Has anyone else noticed the influence of Arthurian legend on Martin's work?

Long into short, yes. It was pondered and discussed at points within these 19. Long version? Sorry, I don't have the energy quite tonight.

[E] The three-eyed crow is Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven. He is way too young to be the Last Hero. He is one of Aegon the Unworthy's Great Bastards.

Honestly, not so fast. When Bran asks if BR is the TEC, he pauses. The case for BR as TEC argues the pause is both the combination of BR being unused to speaking quite yet, and that BR doesn't choose his form when he speaks to Bran in dreams. Yes, BR latches onto the Crow terminology, and making Bran fly. But my first impression was: the pause gives me pause.

-Does anyone know where else in the books, apart from Jon's dream,are the Starks are referred as the kings of winter?

- Something that has been bothering me is how could only the Starks and the wildlings defeated the NK if he had allied himself with the Others, who previously couldn't been defeated even when all the kingdoms of the first men united against them. What were the Others really trying to do when they breach the pact, granted we don't know what were the terms of the pact but I think considering what happened they must had breach the pact, they know controlled the Wall, why they didn't attack in force like they did the first time?

-This is no heresy and I don't know if it has already been mention, but When reading Theon's chapter with Lady Dustin they talk about her husband and how Ned told her that he die bravely and is buried in the red mountains of Dorne, meaning that he was one of the six companions that went with Ned to the Tower of Joy.

part 1: yes, in places I don't recall. It's in a few spots. part 2: not just any wildling, Joruman. Who just so happens to have a horn named after him that can bring the wall down. We did spend quite a bit of time on the Night's King, the potential breaking of the pact, etc. I still feel there's a strong case that the Last Hero and the Night's King and the Long Night are all different perspectives on the same overall event and struggle. part 3- just have to ask, "and?" He was someone Ned trusted enough of his northern liege lords. Nothing stands out as particularly off putting about the ordeal, or indicative of something greater in my mind.

[Tyryan Lannister]

This isn't really related to this specific Heresy, but we've discussed a lot of Scandinavian and British mythology, why don't we take a look at some Arthurian legend? I realized today the similarity between the names Lancel and Lancelot. In Arthurian legend, while Arthur is away at war (I think) Lancelot sleeps with Gwenovere (Arthurs Queen). Anyway, I was struck by the similarities between that and what happens between Lancel, Cersei, and Jaime. Has anyone else noticed the influence of Arthurian legend on Martin's work?

I have definitely noticed the Arthurian influences, though I would say that Jaime is far more Lancelot than Lancel is; basically, Jaime is Martin's take on the classic Arthurian knight and the Arthurian redemption story

[Black Crow]

I have definitely noticed the Arthurian influences, though I would say that Jaime is far more Lancelot than Lancel is; basically, Jaime is Martin's take on the classic Arthurian knight and the Arthurian redemption story

While the Lancel/Lancelot name (and as you say its only a name) is reasonably obvious, I had to smile at Tyrion introducing his father to Shagga and the boys as "The once and future hand of the King"

[Black Crow]

When Bran asks if BR is the TEC, he pauses. The case for BR as TEC argues the pause is both the combination of BR being unused to speaking quite yet, and that BR doesn't choose his form when he speaks to Bran in dreams. Yes, BR latches onto the Crow terminology, and making Bran fly. But my first impression was: the pause gives me pause.

Gives me pause too. A few heresies back we did speculate that Bryn Blackwood had himself been recruited by the Three Eyed Crow while languishing in the darkness of the black cells.

[Black Crow]

-Does anyone know where else in the books, apart from Jon's dream,are the Starks are referred as the kings of winter?

- Something that has been bothering me is how could only the Starks and the wildlings defeated the NK if he had allied himself with the Others, who previously couldn't been defeated even when all the kingdoms of the first men united against them. What were the Others really trying to do when they breach the pact, granted we don't know what were the terms of the pact but I think considering what happened they must had breach the pact, they know controlled the Wall, why they didn't attack in force like they did the first time?

As Mrazny has noted the story is littered with references to the Stark kings of Winter, but significantly they are the older ones.

As to how Bran Stark the Nights King was defeated there are essentially two factors. In the first place as we've recently been discussing in regard to Osha's testimony, the Others/Sidhe only appear to come in Winter. If Stark of Winterfell attacked his brother in the Summer, Bran would have been on his own. This may be where the Horn comes in. On an earlier version of the thread we discussed how it might have been intended to be used to summon the Others/Sidhe, but was captured or stolen by Joruman.

A further wrinkle on this one which occurs to me is that in the Ice Dragon story Adara is able in the end to to summon the dragon to rescue her, even at the cost of it melting in the summer sun. Perhaps that's what the horn was intended to do and summon the Sidhe to Bran's aid even in sunlight.

[Black Crow]

Regarding Mance, The Osha paragraph quoted on the previous thread explicitly states that the White Walkers are not like Rangers. That White Walkers are like Rangers is one of BC's favorite theories.

Yes and no. What I've proposed in the past is that the White Walkers are behaving like rangers in that that they "range about" as individuals or small groups, as distinct from the huge invading army which most readers seem to be expecting. What Osha says, and quite explicitly, is that they're altogether in a different league to the Black rangers and that fighting them is not the same as fighting the Nights Watch. We're talking quality rather than role.

[Ciazio]

As Mrazny has noted the story is littered with references to the Stark kings of Winter, but significantly they are the older ones.

A reasoning I posted in another thread about Kings of Winter is related to the location of their tombs in the crypts.

We know from many a character that the KoW are entombed near the entrance of the crypts. This means that they are the older kings entombed there. If you found/dug a series of caves to use as crypts is safe to say that you will bury the first dead kings near the entrance.

Moreover, the Kings of Winter are quickly passed by the characters that enter the crypts (Ned, Bran, Theon). This means that they are very few.

Summarizing what we know:

1. The KoW are the oldests
   
2. The KoW are very few
   

Speculation / Heresy time:

I bet that there are only 12 Kings of Winter buried in the crypts in Winterfell, the 13th being the Night's King.

[nanother]

I noticed that as well. But they also mention older kings being buried in the lower levels, although since no-one actually seems to go there we can't really be sure.

Also, the distinction between KoW and KiN is far from clear. I think it's possible that once they meant different things, but these days no-one knows what it was anymore. IIRC Bran mentions KoW, but Maester Luwin is talking about Kings in the North. At some point I think Catelyn also refers to the old kings as Kings in the North, although I might be wrong...just glimpsed that when searching for something else and now not sure if I can find it again...

ETA: actually, I remembered where it was: the very first Cat chapter when she's talking about Ice: "The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North. "

So I think KiN was originally a southron term and the North eventually adopting it might or might not mean an actual structural change. (E again TA: of course, there are other reasons to think there was a structural change, and it's quite plausible that the NK was indeed the last KoW)

[Free Northman]

The Kings of Winter were probably the titles they claimed in the distant past, before the Starks ruled the entire North.

Back then there was probably the Marsh King, the Bolton King and maybe some Umber and Flint Kings in addition to the Kings of Winter, all ruling different parts of the North. I'm talking 7500 years ago or so.

These would have ruled at the same time as the Storm Kings, the Kings of the Vale and the hundred other First Men kingdoms across Westeros.

But after a few thousand years, the Starks conquered all of the North and thus came to simply be known as the King in the North to everyone south of the Neck, as there were no other Kings north of the Neck anymore.

Hence, no mystical, conspiracy theory as to why the Starks were actually Others in disguise or some some such damning revelation.

Just the normal historical progression that is to be expected.

[Ciazio]

The Kings of Winter were probably the titles they claimed in the distant past, before the Starks ruled the entire North.

Uhm... then why name yourself King of Winter if you are just one of 6/7 kings in the whole North?

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

A reasoning I posted in another thread about Kings of Winter is related to the location of their tombs in the crypts.

We know from many a character that the KoW are entombed near the entrance of the crypts. This means that they are the older kings entombed there. If you found/dug a series of caves to use as crypts is safe to say that you will bury the first dead kings near the entrance.

Moreover, the Kings of Winter are quickly passed by the characters that enter the crypts (Ned, Bran, Theon). This means that they are very few.

Summarizing what we know:

1. The KoW are the oldests
   
2. The KoW are very few
   

Speculation / Heresy time:

I bet that there are only 12 Kings of Winter buried in the crypts in Winterfell, the 13th being the Night's King.

While that seems logical from the standpoint of digging a hole, who's to say that the older lower level was not dug out first. I don't think that's just idle speculation. When I visited a smaller monastery catacomb in Sicily some years back, the oldest corpse cubby holes were quite a ways back into the complex. Are we not told that there are an unknown # of lower levels, entombing an unknown # of older Stark patriarchs?

What else may be down there continues to be hotly debated, but I am highly confident that the handful of tombs we're shown on the level with Rickard/Brandon/Lyanna and later Ned is not the extent of the Stark catacombs.

Even if we take the super-abbreviated heretical timeline, we still need 700 years of Kings of Winter, and 300 years of Lord Starks beginning with Tohhren.

[FanTasy]

I have definitely noticed the Arthurian influences, though I would say that Jaime is far more Lancelot than Lancel is; basically, Jaime is Martin's take on the classic Arthurian knight and the Arthurian redemption story

Yep, and there could be more influencing going on ... there is an Arthur in this story with a very special sword :cool4: ETA and Excalibur is a sword with a reputation that sounds familiar: the one who can use it will be king and re-unite the realm

ETA Off topic, but a thing I did not read before when researching Dawn / Lightbringer, according to some sources Excalibur gave light: (Source: www.ask.com) --> In addition, when Excalibur was first drawn, in the first battle testing Arthur's sovereignty, its blade blinded his enemies. Thomas Malory writes: "thenne he drewe his swerd Excalibur, but it was so breyght in his enemyes eyen that it gaf light lyke thirty torchys."

[Ciazio]

-A- Are we not told that there are an unknown # of lower levels, entombing an unknown # of older Stark patriarchs?

-B- Even if we take the super-abbreviated heretical timeline, we still need 700 years of Kings of Winter, and 300 years of Lord Starks beginning with Tohhren.

-A- uhm... true. Still... a man can hope

-B- I tought that the heretical timeline (or the most accepted one) had 13 Kings of Winter, about 700 years of Kings in the North and 300 years of Lord Starks. Still your points remain :dunce:

[Free Northman]

Uhm... then why name yourself King of Winter if you are just one of 6/7 kings in the whole North?

Why name yourself the Storm King, when you are just one of many kings in the Stormlands? Because Storm's End resisted the Storms coming from the Narrow Sea.

Well, maybe Winterfell's hot springs allowed the Starks to resist the grip of Winter a bit better than other houses could. And maybe because it was a cool name.

The Boltons were maybe the Kings of Blood, or something of similar effect.