Heresy 19

[Free Northman]

-A- uhm... true. Still... a man can hope

-B- I tought that the heretical timeline (or the most accepted one) had 13 Kings of Winter, about 700 years of Kings in the North and 300 years of Lord Starks. Still your points remain :dunce:

This is the first I've heard of this "super abbreviated heretical timeline". And a good thing, too, because it is hilarious and I would have immediately come here and ripped it a new one.

Martin himself has stated in his latest interview that House Karstark branched off over a thousand years ago.

The Maesters state that the Rape of Sisterton occurred 2000 years ago.

The Rape of Sisterton occurred after the Wolf's Den had existed for about 1500 - 2000 years at least, given the list of lords that ruled the Wolf's Den for varoius centuries prior to that point. Meaning that King Jon Stark who built the Wolf's Den lived around 4000 years ago.

His son was the one who conquered the Neck.

Meaning that around 4000 years ago, the Starks already ruled the entire North.

We also know that King Jon Stark is referenced by Bran on the first level of the crypts. We are then told that there are lower levels (note the plural) for the older Kings. The deeper you go, the farther back in time it goes. Hence, if you go back 4000 years just on the top level, then even if the lower levels are smaller, it fits perfectly with a progression right back to Bran the Builder around 8000 years ago.

Between 8000 and 4000 years ago, they went from ruling Winterfell to ruling everything from the Wall to the Neck.

The "abbreviated timeline" is a bit of a joke, actually.

[kissdbyfire]

Honestly, not so fast. When Bran asks if BR is the TEC, he pauses. The case for BR as TEC argues the pause is both the combination of BR being unused to speaking quite yet, and that BR doesn't choose his form when he speaks to Bran in dreams. Yes, BR latches onto the Crow terminology, and making Bran fly. But my first impression was: the pause gives me pause.

ADwD, Appendix:

in the caverns beneath a hollow hill

THE THREE-EYED CROW, also called THE LAST GREENSEER, sorcerer and dreamwalker, once a man of the Night’s Watch named BRYNDEN, now more tree than man,

[mrazny]

Uhm... then why name yourself King of Winter if you are just one of 6/7 kings in the whole North?

Though I personally call it unlikely, perhaps it was only during the Winter's that the North needed an uber-King, in which the Starks of Winterfell fulfilled that role?

ADwD, Appendix:

in the caverns beneath a hollow hill

THE THREE-EYED CROW, also called THE LAST GREENSEER, sorcerer and dreamwalker, once a man of the Night’s Watch named BRYNDEN, now more tree than man,

Bran believes it so. The Appendices are great tools, but also don't they include things like "presumed dead" for characters that aren't quite? Our perspectives throughout the story are tailored through our POV's (and sometimes more limited than the POV's themselves). I'm not sure if the Appendices are actually Omniscient, or what's commonly believed. I'm on the side curious about what the scope of the appendix is, and the perception its supposed to represent.

The "abbreviated timeline" is a bit of a joke, actually.

If people jumped too far then they jumped too far. Part of your support was "Maesters say", which we know maesters disagree and may have a grand conspiracy going on according to Marwyn.

There are varying degrees to what the timelines could represent, but the part I'm personally most skeptical of is the Andal's landing 5,000 years ago. Also, let's see the complete list of "lords of the den". Lifespans were short, and in wartime, lords can easily pass along. To say anything definitively is the joke itself. Men make mistakes, especially when the documentation is *runes*.

I personally don't see an issue with the Andals didn't land until something like 1,500 years before, with the First Men established for a long time beforehand. But men scaling up the timelines, that's *definitively without question* on the table.

I would personally call the 700 years of Kings of Winter and 300 years of Lord Starks complete exaggeration and misunderstanding of what was being argued.

And why would it take 4,000 years for the Starks to spread and rule? That's an enormous amount of time.

[mrazny]

To get out of this sidetrack for a moment...

Asshai has a book 5,000 years old with the legend of AAR. Firstly, we have no indication of Asshai's history, we're just told that the book is presumed 5,000 years old. AKA, who knows. To assume that great written records exist throughout the world is problematic. They don't have carbon dating technology or anything, so their tools are limited, and if Mel is deciding through the fires how old things are, assume a +/- of about 5000%.

But to get to an actual point, we talk of cycles a LOT. With Cycles in mind, why should we assume this happened only once, and that this is happening again for only the second time? What's the say that AAR wasn't the Last Hero, with AA something much older, and this new incarnation a completely separate deal? TPTWP is AAR-reborn, or some such.

We don't have that many controls here, and the perspectives are so far apart the connections are assumed.

To say the happened once 8,000 years ago, and is happening only for the second time ever now is itself a complete assumption.

[Ciazio]

This is the first I've heard of this "super abbreviated heretical timeline". And a good thing, too, because it is hilarious and I would have immediately come here and ripped it a new one.

The "abbreviated timeline" is a bit of a joke, actually.

I'm but one of the newest heretics in the forum (since Heresy 9), so I can't pretend to speak with the voice of others who first figured out all of this stuffs (like Black Crow, unCat, Lummel, mrazny and many others I can't recall now).

That being said, I'll use Black Crow's own words:

We also have a tradition of open-mindedness, conducting debates with good humour and respect for differing and dissenting opinions. This is a thread to be enjoyed.

So, please, before saying that everything we argue here is nonsense, give a read to older Heresies (in the second post you can find the whole list of previous threads). You'll find there why we believe the "official" timeline is corrupted and the basis of many of our statements.

Moreover, you will hardly find two of us who believe the same about everything (included the timeline), so you can actually contest my own timeline (which I myself believe too short) and you won't be the first nor the only one to do so. :P

I was very very skeptical the first time I read about the heretical theories, especially because I considered them too far-fetched and very "unlikely". But, after reading the first Heresies and re-reading the books under their light... well, I found more evidences in their favor than in favor of any of the theories I contest in my signature.

So, take a deep breath, read the older threads and have fun (even skeptical fun) :cheers:

[kissdbyfire]

Bran believes it so. The Appendices are great tools, but also don't they include things like "presumed dead" for characters that aren't quite? Our perspectives throughout the story are tailored through our POV's (and sometimes more limited than the POV's themselves). I'm not sure if the Appendices are actually Omniscient, or what's commonly believed. I'm on the side curious about what the scope of the appendix is, and the perception its supposed to represent.

mrazny, I'm not sure what you mean... I don't think there's any wrong info in the appendixes. For instance, are you talking about something like this: 'Sandor Clegane - presumed dead'?

Because that's what I understood from your post, and I have to say its two completely different things. Sandor Clegane is presumed dead. We have testimony from characters saying he died. We have clues that indicate he might be alive. The fact that the appendix lists him as 'presumed dead' is not misinformation. Just the opposite, it's a big clue.

So, yeah, I don't think the appendix is misleading us regarding the 3EC. Of course, I'm not sure if that's what you meant. :)

[mrazny]

mrazny, I'm not sure what you mean... I don't think there's any wrong info in the appendixes. For instance, are you talking about something like this: 'Sandor Clegane - presumed dead'?

Because that's what I understood from your post, and I have to say its two completely different things. Sandor Clegane is presumed dead. We have testimony from characters saying he died. We have clues that indicate he might be alive. The fact that the appendix lists him as 'presumed dead' is not misinformation. Just the opposite, it's a big clue.

So, yeah, I don't think the appendix is misleading us regarding the 3EC. Of course, I'm not sure if that's what you meant. :)

My point was moreso that we don't know what the Appendix is compiling. The general presumption is Sandor Clegane is dead, in which case we have multiple perspectives that believe this. We only have Bran that would believe that BR is the TEC.

The Appendix could be compiling the collective information at the fingertips of our POVs only, the collective perceptions of the people within the story beyond the POVs, or more. My point is we're presuming that the Appendix is omniscient GOD - GRRM worldview that cannot be wrong. We don't know for sure if that's GRRM's intention.

I'd lean towards it being more a compilation of what our POV's know about the world, not an omniscient retelling of current status. AKA, it's a reflection of what Bran believes, not a confirmation by our Author.

That's not to say that BR *can't* be the TEC, just that this isn't an iron-clad confirmation.

[Black Crow]

OK, thought for the day from the forensic re-read of AGoT. We're now up to the morning after the night before when Mormont gives Jon the sword in thanks for saving him from Othor:

"Yes, damn it. We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered. The Long Night has come before. Oh, eight thousand years is a good while, to be sure... yet if the Nights Watch does not remember, who will?"

Specifically he's talking about Jon setting fire to Othor, and of itself the passage is straightforward and in accordance with orthodox thinking, but stay, turn back two pages, same conversation:

"We have white shadows in the woods and unquiet dead stalking our halls."

This is the first reference anywhere in the books to white shadows, unless you count Will up the tree in the prologue and he never said anything to anybody. Once again, as he did when talking with Tyrion, Mormont is talking quite calmly about the white walkers. They may be something nasty in the woods, but they're there and have been all the time.

What's different now are the wights, not the white walkers.

[nanother]

It's weird, though, if the WW were around all the time, I'd think they'd try to investigate what they are even if they didn't raise wights...

[7V3N]

There is something to all of these "shadows" references. Even with Tyrion, Mel's shadowbaby, the shadow dragon, etc. GRRM throws in mysterious shadows too much for it to be nothing.

[Free Northman]

I'm not saying that 8000 years is absolutely accurate, but I AM saying that 1500 years is way too short.

Valyria has written records going back 5000 years, and the Ghiscari were an old Empire by the time Valyria rose 5000 years ago.

All of these empires had to exist AFTER the Long Night, which covered the entire earth and pretty much wiped out everything.

Also, if it DID occur during the existence of either of these empires, there would be detailed written records of it, which there aren't.

Basically, 8,000 years fits the evidence far better than anything more recent.

What can be moved around, is the exact arrial date of the Andals, which could well have been only 4000 years ago instead of 6000. The 2000 year ago date for the Andal arrival is unlikely, as we have records showing that the North was already at war with the Arryns 2000 years ago, and the Arryns are an Andal house.

So this war had to occur long enough after the arrival of the Andals for the Arryns to be well established in the Vale and powerful enough to engage in war with the ancient King in the North.

I'd guess 3000 years ago is the latest viable date for the Andal arrival.

[FanTasy]

There is something to all of these "shadows" references. Even with Tyrion, Mel's shadowbaby, the shadow dragon, etc. GRRM throws in mysterious shadows too much for it to be nothing.

Har! And let's not forget the shadowbinder :cool4:

[Black Crow]

I'd guess 3000 years ago is the latest viable date for the Andal arrival.

Not according to Hoster Blackwood and the various other characters who have told us that the histories are mince

[Black Crow]

There is something to all of these "shadows" references. Even with Tyrion, Mel's shadowbaby, the shadow dragon, etc. GRRM throws in mysterious shadows too much for it to be nothing.

I think its relatively straightforward if we read the shadows in context with his "different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous." description of the Others.

They are supernatural and belong to the Faerie realm unlike the more corporeal human inhabitants of Westeros

[greygnarl]

For those who don't know the interview mentioned earlier is by asshai.com and is in the latest SSM update.

With the Long Night going in cycles theory, what if the LONG Night was 8000 years ago blanketing the whole Earth. While the kind of Long Night was more recent and was stopped at the Wall.

@Black Crow Also, I know of the theory that Bran the Builder was the Night's King. Are you working under the assumption that this is true? Also, would I find it worthwhile to read through all of the older Heresy threads? I've read tidbits from 12 onward.

[Free Northman]

Not according to Hoster Blackwood and the various other characters who have told us that the histories are mince

Sigh.

I don't get this need you heretics have to shorten the history of Westeros. All of your crazy theories would work just as well if Westeros had a 16000 year history, rather than an 8000 year old one.

Rather than try and chip away at the grandeur and immensity of it all, you should be embracing it.

If a wolf weighs 100 pounds in real life, a direwolf weighs 500 pounds.

If a giant squid has arms 30 feet long, a kraken has arms 300 feet long.

If a big medieval knight was 6 foot 2 inches tall, Gregor Clegane is 7 and a half feet tall.

If your normal medieval country was the size of England, Westeros is the size of 60 Englands put together.

If the Colossus of Rhodes was 100 feet tall, the Titan of Braavos is 400 feet tall.

The Great Pyramid of Giza is 440 feet high, but the Great Pyramid of Meereen is 800 feet high.

The Lighthouse of Alexandria stood 400 feet high, but the Hightower of Oldtown is 800 feet tall.

If Hadrians wall was 6 feet tall, the Wall, which is based on Hadrians wall is 700 feet tall and 300 miles long, for Pete's sake!

The Canadian Rockies may be 15000 feet high, but Martin states that the Frostfangs are the equivalent to the Himalayas, because this is fantasy and he can therefore do what he wants.

And lastly, if the real history of civilization since the start of the Bronze Age is 6000 years old, in Westeros it is 12000 years old.

That's the beauty of the story. Everything is bigger and grander than in real life. You guys are trying to buck the trend here, and you are wrong.

The Manderlys arrived at White Harbor 1000 years ago. That is corroborated by a number of cross referenced sources.

The Rape of Sisterton occurred well before White Harbor existed, so it HAD to be well before 1000 years ago. In fact, the centuries long war with the Vale occurred between the Rape of Sisterton and the establishment of White Harbor, because Osgood Arryns son - the Talon - burned the Wolf's Den to the ground during this war.

So a date of 2000 years ago - provided by the Maesters, fits the Rape of Sisterton perfectly.

Then we have a full list of lords, and the number of generations that each one occuppied the Wolf's Den BEFORE the Rape of Sisterton occurred. This goes back more than another 1000 years. Possibly 2000 years.

Bringing us to at least 4000 years ago for the time of King Jon Stark.

The Valyrians were a civilization of unparralled technology, magic and sophistication. Their records would be far more precise than even that of the Egyptians, who can date their pharoanic Dynasties very accurately based on ancient scrolls. And the Valyrians show that their Empire goes back 5000 years.

The Empire of Old Ghis stretches back for at least a couple of millenia before that, which equates to the era of the Egyptian pharoas in our word (with the Valyrians being the Greeks/Romans who came after).

Hence, it is clear that we are looking at an unbroken record of civilization going back around 8000 years, without the interruption of an extinction level event such as the Long Night.

It is pretty obvious that the historic timeline for these major events is pretty consistent with the canon we have been fed from the start.

The exact date of the Andal arrival can vary, and might well tie in better with a time when Valyrian pressure forced them from Essos around 3000 - 4000 years ago, rather than the 6000 that was originally stated.

But the longer term history going back 8000 years to the Long Night is almost certainly in the right ballpark. You can't halve it, for example, because then the Valyrian and Ghiscari Empires couldn't have existed when they did.

Just accept it: The History of Westeros is far grander than the history of our boring real world. We are talking 8000 year long dynasties of a single House here, my friends. And ain't it glorious!

[mrazny]

I'm not saying that 8000 years is absolutely accurate, but I AM saying that 1500 years is way too short.

Valyria has written records going back 5000 years, and the Ghiscari were an old Empire by the time Valyria rose 5000 years ago.

All of these empires had to exist AFTER the Long Night, which covered the entire earth and pretty much wiped out everything.

Also, if it DID occur during the existence of either of these empires, there would be detailed written records of it, which there aren't.

Basically, 8,000 years fits the evidence far better than anything more recent.

What can be moved around, is the exact arrial date of the Andals, which could well have been only 4000 years ago instead of 6000. The 2000 year ago date for the Andal arrival is unlikely, as we have records showing that the North was already at war with the Arryns 2000 years ago, and the Arryns are an Andal house.

So this war had to occur long enough after the arrival of the Andals for the Arryns to be well established in the Vale and powerful enough to engage in war with the ancient King in the North.

I'd guess 3000 years ago is the latest viable date for the Andal arrival.

I don't recall what you're basing your "Valyria had written records for over 5,000 years." Same for Old Ghis. We were told Valyria conquered Old Ghis 5,000 years ago, but not the source of that if I'm recalling correctly. Most likely its from a book that Tyrion read somewhere. Again, they don't have carbon dating. Do you really think an expanding Empire would wait 4,000 years between destroying Ghis before looking towards the Rhoynar? That doesn't add up. Ghis is dead, and so is Valyria. Where is the constant sustained reliable empire that has clear astrological documentation of the passing of time?

The Andals *would* try to change history to avoid admitting that they fled the Valyrians. If the Andals were characterized correctly, they came in violently, which would put the earliest conflicts as probably just after their arrival. So if the Arryns and Starks accurately have been fighting 2,000 years ago, that's more evidence towards the Andals couldn't have arrived much earlier than then. And that's *if* that 2,000 figure is accurate.

If its to be believed, the Rhoynar taught the Andals how to shape Iron. Which would make the Rhoynar as old as Valyria in the traditional timeline, and more likely of a kind with Old Ghis, but this isn't what we're told at any point that I remember.

Next, what evidence is there again that the Long Night extended to Essos? Azor Ahai? The incredibly detailed struggles of Azor Ahai? The Long Night is a legend based on an event. Legends tend to expand the scope of their event. The Long Night only affecting Westeros is completely on the table.

The who is as important as the what when we are told things.

[mrazny]

you know, those clear Valyrian records that still exist in the fully intact Valyria...

[greygnarl]

Ignore

[Budj]

Wait - history dates the start of the Stark lineage to the end of the long night?