Light a wight tonight Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 It's pretty obvious that Joff's demise was a joint effort by the Tyrrells and Lord Petyr, but I'm curious as to which side was dominant in the arrangement. The Tyrrells obviously didn't want Margaery subject to Joff's brutality, and Lady Olenna was a plotter, but Littlefinger is the absolute master of intrigue (with the possible exception of Varys), and would seem to have done the planning.We know the benefits the Tyrrells got, but what did LF get out of it, short term and long term? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Sansa Stark, single and available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Spoon Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Well Tommen is a much more pliant King than Joffrey, and more predictable. IIRC in AGoT when Eddard goes to LF for help in the aftermath of Roberts death one of his suggestions was to forget Stannis, back the Lannisters and rule through Joffrey and if that proved hard to replace him with Tommen.I think also LF wanted the inept Cersei to have as much power as possible. He knows she will screw up to make things easier for his end-game. He knows Joffrey was a psycopath he want's things to deteriorate over time not all at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septon Meribald Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 I'm sure they both thought it was their idea, but I think that's because Littlefinger is an expert at making people think his plans are their ideas. It's a part of his MO. He isn't perceived as a threat because he doesn't directly suggest things, which makes him appear to not have higher ambitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady B Pudding Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 The Tyrrells can easily control Tommen while Little Finger gets Sansa who looks like her mother when she was young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Sansa Stark, single and available.IMHO her attraction seems to be as the Second Coming of Catelyn. And she's not single. Maybe a soon-to-be widow if Tyrion is convicted of the killing and her escape works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septon Meribald Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 IMHO her attraction seems to be as the Second Coming of Catelyn. And she's not single. Maybe a soon-to-be widow if Tyrion is convicted of the killing and her escape works.Well that was the plan and it was going rather well til Varys interrupted. Even still Tyrion is now an attainted kinslayer and the marriage was never consummated. Getting it annulled or overlooked or whatever they might call it should be easy, once LF proves Sana's innocence in the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstar of Dayne Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 ...And she's not single. Maybe a soon-to-be widow if Tyrion is convicted of the killing and her escape works.It has been said that since her marriage was never consummated/her maidenhead is intact and her "husband" is a wanted fugitive, she will without question be allowed to annul and marry. To whom? I believe she will marry a horrifically disfigured but otherwise healthy Loras Tyrell. Beaten to the punch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Snow Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 It has been said that since her marriage was never consummated/her maidenhead is intact and her "husband" is a wanted fugitive, she will without question be allowed to annul and marry. To whom? I believe she will marry a horrifically disfigured but otherwise healthy Loras Tyrell.Beaten to the punch...I don't think Sansa will wind up with Loras and I don't really believe he's actually been wounded and disfigured, but even still: your idea would be so painful and ironic, it'd be a perfect fit for ASOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real Heir of Bear Island Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 I think like Varys at the end of ADWD, he wanted Kings Landing in further turmoil as well as the the little monster dead. I think he could have gotten Sansa without killing Joff. How could he have guessed Tyrion would have been blamed? I think that was just a bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nepaliman_7 Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 It has been said that since her marriage was never consummated/her maidenhead is intact and her "husband" is a wanted fugitive, she will without question be allowed to annul and marry. To whom? I believe she will marry a horrifically disfigured but otherwise healthy Loras Tyrell.Beaten to the punch...Loras is a member of the Kingsguard, he's not allowed to marry. She was going to marry Willas, the crippled Tyrell brother before she married Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themick Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Well if the Tyrells had their way wouldnt Sansa have been moved to Highgarden before the wedding and probably not even attended. So how would they have poisoned joffery?Since it seems the poisoning and escape were a joint effort of Olyena and LF their had to have been communication between them and a changing of plans. But who knows what the original plan was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septon Meribald Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 I think like Varys at the end of ADWD, he wanted Kings Landing in further turmoil as well as the the little monster dead. I think he could have gotten Sansa without killing Joff. How could he have guessed Tyrion would have been blamed? I think that was just a bonus.I think Tyrion being blamed was never a requirement of the plan, but it was definitely a contingency. He knew they hated each other and so did the whole court. He convinced Joff to get the dwarf jousting in the wedding which would only provide yet another reason for him to get mad and do or say something violent. Then when Joff dies, there's a lot of eyes looking at him. If not Littlefinger would have been fine. But he definitely thought of it as a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 We know the benefits the Tyrrells got, but what did LF get out of it, short term and long term?The immediate benefit for LF was Harrenhal. Through this he had the needed position to be able to marry Lysa and take control of the Vale through her and sweetrobin.I think like Varys at the end of ADWD, he wanted Kings Landing in further turmoil as well as the the little monster dead. I think he could have gotten Sansa without killing Joff. How could he have guessed Tyrion would have been blamed? I think that was just a bonus.I don't think he wanted further turmoil that soon. In Feast, LF tells Sansa that he knew Cersei would always self-destruct but that he didn't think it would happen as quickly as it did. He also implied that it was causing problems for him. The chaos in KL was caused not just by the death of Joff but of Tywin, something that LF could not have foreseen.His plan all along had been to get Sansa out during the PW. The hairnet was given to Sansa during her last chapter in Clash, right after the BBW. It gave the needed distraction to get her out of there. Remember, Sansa was under guard constantly. The godswood was her meeting place as it was the only time she could be alone.I'm sure they both thought it was their idea, but I think that's because Littlefinger is an expert at making people think his plans are their ideas. It's a part of his MO. He isn't perceived as a threat because he doesn't directly suggest things, which makes him appear to not have higher ambitions.LF tells us how the Tyrells found out the truth of Joffrey. In public, he praised Joffrey but used the servants at Highgarden to the truth about him. He did somethig similar with Loras and the KG, using singers to to praise the KG which gave Mace the idea to make Loras a member.Well if the Tyrells had their way wouldnt Sansa have been moved to Highgarden before the wedding and probably not even attended. So how would they have poisoned joffery?Since it seems the poisoning and escape were a joint effort of Olyena and LF their had to have been communication between them and a changing of plans. But who knows what the original plan was.I'm not sure why you think their plans changed. They were only working together when it came to the poisoning. He always planned Sansa's escape, which the Tyrells were never a part of. Just as the Tyrells did not include LF in their plan to marry Sansa off to Willas.They have an incentive to work together because the Tyrells want to pick the husband and LF needs Harrenhal.The plan all along was for Sansa to leave after the PW for Highgarden, after Marg was made the queen, when her position was more secured. Remember, the day of the wedding, the QoT takes the poison from Sansa's hairnet and offers to let her visit Highgarden again. It's clear at that point that she hoped her plans for Sansa to marry Willas would still move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat of the Canal Girl Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 I think like Varys at the end of ADWD, he wanted Kings Landing in further turmoil as well as the the little monster dead. I think he could have gotten Sansa without killing Joff. How could he have guessed Tyrion would have been blamed? I think that was just a bonus.I understand why Varys wanted KL in further turmoil, but not why this would benefit Baelish. I find it hard to believe that all Baelish gets out of this is Sansa, especially since he already arranged her to marry that dude who will inherit the Eyrie.One small thing I've considered is that by seating Sansa at Lady of the Vale, it helps establish Baelish's power as Lord Paramount of the Trident. Most of the Riverlords were going to be unhappy when/if Petyr takes his seat at Harrenhal and tries to rule over them. Setting a couple in the Vale that are his creatures would help him there.But that isn't enough I don't think. Baelish has got to be getting something more out of this whole murder Joff/kidnap Sansa plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet Isle Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 IMHO her attraction seems to be as the Second Coming of Catelyn. And she's not single. Maybe a soon-to-be widow if Tyrion is convicted of the killing and her escape works. Well she's really not married to Tyrion if The Sailors' Wife is Tysha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Littlefinger got Harrenhal and the prestige he needed to marry Lysa by arranging the marriage between Margaery and Joffrey. It could very well be that it was the Tyrells who said, "Joff needs to be killed or the deal's off," in which case Baelish would had to have gone ahead and obliged — if the Tyrells didn't play ball, there's no marriage contract and no social elevation.I think that getting Sansa was a major side motivation, but I tend to think that Baelish smuggled her away on his own, and the Tyrells weren't involved in and likely didn't know about that aspect of the plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal GoGo Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Loras is a member of the Kingsguard, he's not allowed to marry. She was going to marry Willas, the crippled Tyrell brother before she married Tyrion.They're not allowed to kill the king or abandon the city either, and they serve for life. Solemn vows and oaths are words and words are wind. Not that I can see the golden boy Loras openly dishonouring himself anyway, but it can't be ruled out. And don't forget that he is apparently just like Jaime was at that age, and we all know how his vows turned out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Scorpion Knight Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Well that was the plan and it was going rather well til Varys interrupted. Even still Tyrion is now an attainted kinslayer and the marriage was never consummated. Getting it annulled or overlooked or whatever they might call it should be easy, once LF proves Sana's innocence in the matter.Is it just me or Isn't this step inherant dangerous for LF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Dylen of the Green Oak Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 I think it's most likely to be having both Tommen as king and Sansa/Alayne for a daughter. Both would make Baelish as happy as a Cat in his bed.Tommen is much easier to influence (if he decides to go back) and is much less likely to be a competent commander against his forces in the Vale.As for Sansa, I think the idea of having her as a "daughter" so that he can 'steal some sugar' on the occasion is a massive bonus for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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