Ser Kevan Lannister-- a "funny uncle"?

[The Fallen]

You mean, because she has sex, she shouldn't be pitied for having sexual violence committed against her?

What I'm saying is she can't have it both ways. She can't use sex to advance her cause, I mean she even came-on to dear old Ned, but feel outraged when the tables are turned on her and she suffers a sexual punishment. And what's with the use of the term 'sexual violence'? There was no sexual violence committed against her, she was punished. You can't use modern terms in a fictional world.

As far as her use of sex as a weapon, no one's criticizing her for it. She told Sansa frequently about the weapon between her legs, so now that same weapon is being used to punish her. I felt bad for her, but she agreed to the WoS. And for all of her crimes, which include instructing people to sleep with Margaery and/or lie about sleeping with her, in which she's using sex as a weapon, she got off lightly.

[Elder Sister]

Very, very interesting topic. I was totally weirded out by Kevan's part in Cersei's walk of shame. His description of her body, and his obvious enjoyment in getting her 'declawed' sort of made me ill.

There's no question that Cersei did some truly terrible things, but what did she really do that Tywin hadn't done? Her biggest mistake in the world of Westeros was overreaching and attempting to do what the men around her did constantly. And that's why she had to be made an example.

Kevan served Tywin, who had Gregor Clegane, The Hound, and a menagerie of villains going around raping and killing. And very little is said about this.

I didn't care the Kevan was murdered. I thought he was the worst kind of hypocrite.

[Winter's Knight]

What I'm saying is she can't have it both ways. She can't use sex to advance her cause, I mean she even came-on to dear old Ned, but feel outraged when the tables are turned on her and she suffers a sexual punishment. And what's with the use of the term 'sexual violence'? There was no sexual violence committed against her, she was punished. You can't use modern terms in a fictional world.

As far as her use of sex as a weapon, no one's criticizing her for it. She told Sansa frequently about the weapon between her legs, so now that same weapon is being used to punish her. I felt bad for her, but she agreed to the WoS. And for all of her crimes, which include instructing people to sleep with Margaery and/or lie about sleeping with her, in which she's using sex as a weapon, she got off lightly.

I am using "sexual violence" because the Walk of Shame is sexual violence. She was punished for having consensual sex with the Kettleblacks and Lancel.

[Castel]

There's no question that Cersei did some truly terrible things, but what did she really do that Tywin hadn't done? Her biggest mistake in the world of Westeros was overreaching and attempting to do what the men around her did constantly. And that's why she had to be made an example.

Her biggest mistake was being an idiot. Tywin got away with what he did because he was good, and he had a huge army at his back. Cersei has neither. If Tywin had fucked up in a similar way he would not have gotten the walk of shame maybe, but he certainly would be awaiting trial.

I didn't care the Kevan was murdered. I thought he was the worst kind of hypocrite.

Hypocrisy assumes that being a good man in Westeros and pillaging and murdering are mutually exclusive.

[AsoiafFTW!]

Very, very interesting topic. I was totally weirded out by Kevan's part in Cersei's walk of shame. His description of her body, and his obvious enjoyment in getting her 'declawed' sort of made me ill.

There's no question that Cersei did some truly terrible things, but what did she really do that Tywin hadn't done? Her biggest mistake in the world of Westeros was overreaching and attempting to do what the men around her did constantly. And that's why she had to be made an example.

Kevan served Tywin, who had Gregor Clegane, The Hound, and a menagerie of villains going around raping and killing. And very little is said about this.

I didn't care the Kevan was murdered. I thought he was the worst kind of hypocrite.

she had to be made an example because she fail not because she try.

[The Fallen]

I am using "sexual violence" because the Walk of Shame is sexual violence. She was punished for having consensual sex with the Kettleblacks and Lancel.

So it's OK for Cersei to commit sexual violence, but not the men in Westeros?

[Elder Sister]

Her biggest mistake was being an idiot. Tywin got away with what he did because he was good, and he had a huge army at his back. Cersei has neither. If Tywin had fucked up in a similar way he would not have gotten the walk of shame maybe, but he certainly would be awaiting trial.

Hypocrisy assumes that being a good man in Westeros and pillaging and murdering are mutually exclusive.

Part of why Tywin was seen as good at playing the game is that he had all kinds of support that his gold purchased. Cersei didn't have the resources, and you're right. I wouldn't call her stupid, but she was extremely deluded with regards to her treatment of people. I think, had she controlled her temper and been more patient, she might have been an amazing player. But her ego and her impatience got in her way.

[Castel]

Part of why Tywin was seen as good at playing the game is that he had all kinds of support that his gold purchased. Cersei didn't have the resources, and you're right. I wouldn't call her stupid, but she was extremely deluded with regards to her treatment of people. I think, had she controlled her temper and been more patient, she might have been an amazing player. But her ego and her impatience got in her way.

What do you mean she doesn't have the resources? She was capable of buying men exactly like Tyrion did wasn't she? She had a legitimate position didn't she? Her narcissism led her to create a situation where she used sex to win. The only case I can think of offhead where she was disadvantaged vs. Tyrion or Tywin was when Tyrion won the loyalty of the tribesmen. She probably would have been raped or something.

I wouldn't say she was equal with Tywin but she could have had power if she wanted. And if she didn't it certainly wasn't because of gold, I would attribute it to her inability to go fight for herself. Ironically Tyrion was in a similar position (cursed with physical frailty, though his was not imposed) and yet he found monsters to do his bidding and gain fear and respect. Cersei tried the same and failed miserably.

[Elder Sister]

I don't agree with you on that. Cersei is handicapped over and over again because of her sex. Being a woman in Westeros, she's limited in what she can do. And her father has sewn up most of the political allies she could have made. She's left trying to do something with the Kettleb. and other assorted trash.

[Winter's Knight]

So it's OK for Cersei to commit sexual violence, but not the men in Westeros?

Since when is consensual sex, violence? Has she raped someone?

[LordBloodraven]

Since when is consensual sex, violence? Has she raped someone?

Lancel wasn't legally mature at the time. And the way it plays out, she used her authority as Queen and elder cousin unduly

[Castel]

I don't agree with you on that. Cersei is handicapped over and over again because of her sex. Being a woman in Westeros, she's limited in what she can do. And her father has sewn up most of the political allies she could have made. She's left trying to do something with the Kettleb. and other assorted trash.

I think Cersei is handicapped in the sense that she can't go out and fight wars and win men or beat fear into the hearts of her enemies that way, but I still think that Cersei could have had power. She is pretty much in the same position as a weaker Tyrion in that sense. And yet Tyrion is able to find monsters to do his bidding.

Later she's at a disadvantage because of her father, that's definitely true. But Cersei could have had power, she was just incompetent. Your point was that she was poorer than Tywin and so had less power, I don't believe that gold played much of a part.

[Sevumar]

Since when is consensual sex, violence? Has she raped someone?

The sex scene with Taena seemed like rape to me. It was certainly violent enough.

At the time Cersei was sleeping with Lancel, he was 14 or 15. Considering the age difference and the power difference a case can be made that there was coercion.

[Castel]

The sex scene with Taena seemed like rape to me. It was certainly violent enough.

At the time Cersei was sleeping with Lancel, he was 14 or 15. Considering the age difference and the power difference a case can be made that there was coercion.

Taena gave clear verbal consent. We can argue about power imbalances and so on but I don't think violence is relevant unless it leads to a revocation -or a desire to revoke- of consent, especially not the nipple-twisting violence we saw.

[Elder Sister]

I think Cersei is handicapped in the sense that she can't go out and fight wars and win men or beat fear into the hearts of her enemies that way, but I still think that Cersei could have had power. She is pretty much in the same position as a weaker Tyrion in that sense. And yet Tyrion is able to find monsters to do his bidding.

Later she's at a disadvantage because of her father, that's definitely true. But Cersei could have had power, she was just incompetent. Your point was that she was poorer than Tywin and so had less power, I don't believe that gold played much of a part.

Well, I will gladly agree to disagree. :). I love discussing these characters.

I do think Cersei was impeded by her husband and father to an extent, but of course, she also had her sex, as well as her own poor judgement that played a part.

You know, the best of the three Lannister kids would make a fantastic character, just about perfection.

[pat]

Cersei at the dinner with Kevan and Tommen seems to think the whole thing was Kevans idea.

The woman has her place thing. I trust her intuition that he had a hand in this. He could have stopped the WOS. But why would he stop something he most likely planned and executed. Remember it mirrors Tywins treatment of his fathers mistress.

And why not? That relationship with Lancel is wrong. The kid is underage. She is in a position of authority.

Clearly some sort of sexual crime. All sexual crimes are violent by definition. If it was a male with a younger woman he would get much worse. Basically she is that kids camp employee who ruins a kids life. Yes men can be harmed by a sexual relationship. If you think otherwise read about teen male abuse victims. That body reactions cant be fully controlled easily convinces boys they want it.

[The Fallen]

Since when is consensual sex, violence? Has she raped someone?

Cersei wasn't raped. And according to your definition of sexual violence, she committed it against Margaery and Alayaya.

[Castel]

Well, I will gladly agree to disagree. :). I love discussing these characters.

I do think Cersei was impeded by her husband and father to an extent, but of course, she also had her sex, as well as her own poor judgement that played a part.

You know, the best of the three Lannister kids would make a fantastic character, just about perfection.

No doubt. I was trying to focus on the times she had the most freedom, both before and after her father died. That's where I drew my examples from.

[danm_999]

Since when is consensual sex, violence? Has she raped someone?

Cersei's sexual shenanigans go beyond seducing people. She's frequented obsessed with other people's sex lives and how she can use them to exploit and humiliate. It kicks off with her telling Tywin about Alayaya out of spite.

Whilst Tyrion lay drugged and dreaming, his own blood had pulled his claws out, one by one. “I want you to go to my sister. Her precious son made it through the battle unscathed, so Cersei has no more need of a hostage. She swore to free Alayaya once—”

“She did. Eight, nine days ago, after the whipping.”

Tyrion shoved himself up higher, ignoring the sudden stab of pain through his shoulder. “Whipping?”

“They tied her to a post in the yard and scourged her, then shoved her out the gate naked and bloody.”

She was learning to read, Tyrion thought, absurdly. Across his face the scar stretched tight, and for a moment it felt as though his head would burst with rage. Alayaya was a whore, true enough, but a sweeter, braver, more innocent girl he had seldom met.

The Redwyne twins,” said Taena. “Both of them have fallen in love with Lady Margaery. They used to fight over which would be the next Lord of the Arbor. Now both of them want to join the Kingsguard, just to be near the little queen.”

“The Redwynes have always had more freckles than wits.” It was a useful thing to know, though. If Horror or Slobber were to be found abed with Margaery . . . Cersei wondered if the little queen liked freckles.

Taena laughed. “My lord is more bountiful than dangerous, this is so. Yet . . . I hope Your Grace will not think the less of me, but I did not come a maid entire to Orton’s bed.”

You are all whores in the Free Cities, aren’t you? That was good to know; one day, she might be able to make use of it.

After he was gone, Cersei summoned Jocelyn to brush her hair out whilst she slipped off her shoes and stretched like a cat. I was made for this, she told herself. It was the sheer elegance of it that pleased her most. Even Mace Tyrell would not dare defend his darling daughter if she was caught in the act with the likes of Osney Kettleblack, and neither Stannis Baratheon nor Jon Snow would have cause to wonder why mOsney was being sent to the Wall.

I will pretend you did not mention lions. “The realm is at war. His Grace has need of every man.” Cersei did not intend to squander Tommen’s strength playing wet nurse to sparrows, or guarding the wrinkled cunts of a thousand sour septas. Half of them are probably praying for a good raping.

Lord Qyburn ran a hand up the Blue Bard’s chest. “Does she take your nipples in her mouth during your love play?” He took one between his thumb and forefinger, and twisted. “Some men enjoy that. Their nipples are as sensitive as a woman’s.” The razor flashed, the singer shrieked. On his chest a wet red eye wept blood. Cersei felt ill. Part of her wanted to close her eyes, to turn away, to make it stop. But she was the queen and this was treason. Lord Tywin would not have turned away.

The picture of this sour old crone poking her wrinkled fingers up Margaery’s little pink cunt was so droll that Cersei almost laughed.

So yeah, when she had to do the Walk of Shame, I really couldn't see it as anything but reaping what she sowed; a reign fueled by sexual manipulation, humiliation and misconduct ending in the same way.

[The Fallen]

` Good work. I definitely wasn't going to go hunting for the evidence.