Ser Kevan Lannister-- a "funny uncle"?

[brashcandy]

And that has to be because she was a woman, no other reason. It's not as if his disapproval for Queen Regent could be in any way linked to the way she governed the realm.

Citation needed.

His niece had been subdued and submissive since her walk of atonement, thank the gods... She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs....

Outside the wind was rising, clawing at the shutters of his chamber. Ser Kevan pulled himself to his feet. Time to face the lioness in her den. We have pulled her claws.

I could provide more examples but I hope these suffice.

[mcb]

What you say is not accurate because no one would think to punish a man with WoS.

And that's not what we talked about. Kittykatknits stated that Kevan disapproved of Cersei solely because she was a woman, and he hated women. I vote that it might have something to do with her political genius.

Again, the issue wasn't "why they made Cersei walk the WoS", but "why Kevan disapproved of Cersei". True, the Walk of Shame in this universe is a punishment designed specifically for women (just as gelding is specifically a punishment for men). Were she a man, this particular method of crushing her political power wouldn't be used. It would be something else. Like headsman's sword, or a black cloak.

[brashcandy]

You find someone kissing a woman's hand, while worrying they're never going to be kissed again patronizing and demeaning to the women?

I really don't see it.

When the person that is worrying they won't be kissed again is the same one who just ensured they went through a horrible, humiliating experience? Yes, I do.

Bullshit.

We get Kevan's POV, we know his thoughts. The chapter is not a happy one where he feels some petty victory over how she's been sexually humiliated, and how he managed to mysognistically bring about her fall.

No, the chapter is one where he is taking a kind of sick pleasure in ruminating over Cersei's signs of trauma, and thinking that now she's had her claws pulled. Personally, I find it very disturbing and appalling. But hey that's just me.

This is a chapter where he's intensely depressed Cersei, despite her flaws, has been reduced to a shadow of herself. He doesn't think kissing her hand is some kind of mock gesture, and we know he takes no pleasure in it. It's right there in the text, he's filled with regret about her life, her personality and the happy life she could have lived if circumstance had not ruined it.

I really think you need to have a look at the chapter again because your reading is incredibly flawed. Kevan is in no way depressed over what has happened to Cersei. You think because he engages in some nostalgic memories over what could have been that he's depressed? Right.

[FanTasy]

No, the chapter is one where he is taking a kind of sick pleasure in ruminating over Cersei's signs of trauma, and thinking that now she's had her claws pulled. Personally, I find it very disturbing and appalling.

I can understand you interpretate it that way and have the feelings you describe, as I can understand that somebody else has another interpretation and has a different set of feelinjs.

This is exactly why GRRM's writing is so exciting, in my opinion.

Based on the same text there are multiple layers, multiple interpretations.

Both interpretations do not necessarily have to stand as opposites to each other, they can both be valid.

[danm_999]

When the person that is worrying they won't be kissed again is the same one who just ensured they went through a horrible, humiliating experience? Yes, I do.

Seeing as Kevan Lannister isn't the High Sparrow...

But this debate is pretty adequately covered earlier.

No, the chapter is one where he is taking a kind of sick pleasure in ruminating over Cersei's signs of trauma, and thinking that now she's had her claws pulled. Personally, I find it very disturbing and appalling. But hey that's just me.

Please elucidate where Kevan finds pleasure in Cersei's suffering and trauma in this chapter.

In fact, the only time he shows any sort of joy in the chapter is when Cersei makes a joke about Mace Tyrell, and he's happy she remembers how to laugh.

Yeah, what a dick.

I really think you need to have a look at the chapter again because you're reading is incredibly flawed. Kevan is in no way depressed over what has happened to Cersei. You think because he engages in some nostalgic memories over what could have been that he's depressed? Right.

I think the theme of that entire chapter is depression, cold, weariness and malaise; from Kevan's discomfort from sitting on the Iron Throne, the petty politics of the Small Council, the ominous snow blanketing the Red Keep, the murders in Pycelle's chambers, culminating in the revelation from a raven winter has come; the series primary metaphor for ruin.

Kevan is not living out some exciting schadenfreude fantasy where he's finally beaten his niece and is living the high life, while getting off on remembering how hot she was as a 13 year old.

[Sandor's Hound]

I don't blame him. The Queen is hot.

"I've said if she wasn't my daughter, perhaps I'd be dating her." - Donald Trump

[lilenadheas]

guys... Stop ruining Kevan Lannister for me! He's the only one i like. *sigh* I guess I'll have to reread the AFFC Cersei chapters.

Personally, I think he's being judged quite harshly here (though there is definitely merit to the arguments). I don't think that "if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem" mindset applies to ASOIAF in terms of politics. I say this because I've seen a few posts regarding Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, the Red Wedding etc... He does not morally transcend the ambitions of his House, and is not obligated to become the soapbox for the reader in order to be a normal/good person.

As regards his "pleasure" at seeing Cersei fall, I simply didn't see it at all. But I will definitely read into that interpretation on my next reread.

Finally, while I can get mad at the depictions of the patriarchy at play, I think that characters must be judged within context.

[brashcandy]

Seeing as Kevan Lannister isn't the High Sparrow...

But this debate is pretty adequately covered earlier.

Whether or not it was personally ordained by the HS or Kevan didn't think he could stop it is besides the point. He's clearly happy with the results.

Please elucidate where Kevan finds pleasure in Cersei's suffering and trauma in this chapter.

In fact, the only time he shows any sort of joy in the chapter is when Cersei makes a joke about Mace Tyrell, and he's happy she remembers how to laugh.

Yeah, what a dick.

I already provided examples for mcb. Another one just for you:

The queen was dressed as modestly as a matron, in a dark brown gown that buttoned up to her throat and a hooded green mantle that covered her shaved head. Before her walk she would have flaunted her baldness beneath a golden crown.

Now, I don't know about you, but in this chapter all of Kevan's kindnesses to Cersei come off as very condescending, and there is to my mind, a clear sense of pleasure he's experiencing in detailing these before and after traits of Cersei's. She's no longer a threat to him, so he can afford to be magnanimous and gentle. Oh had he had shown some of that before her WOS! Indeed, Kevan's behaviour in this chapter regarding Cersei fits that of an abuser's quite well.

I think the theme of that entire chapter is depression, cold, weariness and malaise; from Kevan's discomfort from sitting on the Iron Throne, the petty politics of the Small Council, the ominous snow blanketing the Red Keep, the murders in Pycelle's chambers, culminating in the revelation from a raven winter has come; the series primary metaphor for ruin.

I'm not disputing the mood of the chapter, just that I don't think we're meant to see Kevan's behaviour as very fatherly. He feels comfortable now being around Cersei because he imagines her humbled, and taking advantage of another person's degradation is what I find disturbing.

Kevan is not living out some exciting schadenfreude fantasy where he's finally beaten his niece and is living the high life, while getting off on remembering how hot she was as a 13 year old.

I do think he feels deep satisfaction over what has happened, but sure, there's some sense of his conscience bothering him when he thinks about Tywin. With regard to him being happy to see her smile, well why not? She can smile all she wants now so long as she doesn't pose a threat to him.

[SeanF]

I don't think Kevan is leering at Cersei naked. But, I do think he thoroughly approves of her humiliation, perhaps even enjoys it, and sees it as a good way to remove her as a political player for good.

He dislikes Cersei and Jaime intensely (due to their incest), and throws Cersei's offer to be Hand back in her face. And, it's clear he's disgusted at her relationship with his son (who knows if his son has confessed his part in the murder of King Robert to him?)

Kevan is not really a nice man. He has no qualms about setting the Riverlands ablaze, and is quite willing to participate in his brother's crimes. He is, however, less shrewd than his brother. It wasn't just Cersei's reputation that got dragged through the mud, due to her walk of shame. It was the reputation of the whole of the Royal Family, and House Lannister. Tywin would never have permitted such an insult to his House, however angry towards a close relative he may have been.

Tommen could easily have been instructed to give both Queens a royal pardon, and then Cersei could have been packed off into retirement. The Tyrells would be happy with that, and they have 70,000 soldiers in and around Kings Landing.

[danm_999]

Whether or not it was personally ordained by the HS or Kevan didn't think he could stop it is besides the point. He's clearly happy with the results.

Where the rubber meets the road here is that I don't feel Kevan is happy in the ADWD epilogue.

I already provided examples for mcb. Another one just for you:

Now, I don't know about you, but in this chapter all of Kevan's kindnesses to Cersei come off as very condescending, and there is to my mind, a clear sense of pleasure he's experiencing in detailing these before and after traits of Cersei's.

I'm sorry, I cannot for the life of me see how that quote demonstrates that Kevan is pleased with Cersei's suffering, nor the one you provided for mcb. At best, I can say he's contrasting her differing attitudes before and after the WoS, not that he's happy she's been shamed.

I do think he feels deep satisfaction over what has happened, but sure, there's some sense of his conscience bothering him when he thinks about Tywin. With regard to him being happy to see her smile, well why not? She can smile all she wants now so long as she doesn't pose a threat to him.

My point is I don't see any pleasure coming from Kevan observing Cersei's wretched state, and that from my perspective, any pleasure he's feeling from her fall appears to be something you're projecting onto him. In my view, Kevan is mostly sad Cersei has been neutered and broken, despite his misgivings about her previous behaviour.

[brashcandy]

I'm sorry, I cannot for the life of me see how that quote demonstrates that Kevan is pleased with Cersei's suffering, nor the one you provided for mcb. At best, I can say he's contrasting her differing attitudes before and after the WoS.

So the part where he thinks "thank the gods" she's now submissive and docile doesn't sound like pleasure? And let me be clear: I'm not suggesting, and I don't believe others are suggesting, that Kevan is doing cartwheels in his bedroom over what has happened to Cersei. Pleasure in this sense is much more deep seated and insidious, rooted in a need to see his niece brought low and taught a lesson.

My point is I don't see any pleasure coming from Kevan observing Cersei's wretched state, and that from my perspective, any pleasure he's feeling from her fall appears to be something you're projecting onto him.

Well I'm not the only one who thinks he takes joy from it, so I guess we're all projecting onto him :dunno: I think you're simply not reading beneath the lines. Kevan's "kindness" in this chapter is only facilitated by Cersei's dejection, or so he imagines. Look at how sharp his response is when he thinks that she may be insinuating something when she mentions his wife and women knowing their place. I think that clarifies the true stance Kevan holds towards Cersei.

[danm_999]

So the part where he thinks "thank the gods" she's now submissive and docile doesn't sound like pleasure?

No, it sounds like he's relieved she's not running around King's Landing messing things up anymore. Pleasure doesn't really seem to come into it.

And let me be clear: I'm not suggesting, and I don't believe others are suggesting, that Kevan is doing cartwheels in his bedroom over what has happened to Cersei. Pleasure in this sense is much more deep seated and insidious, rooted in a need to see his niece brought low and taught a lesson.

Well I'm not the only one who thinks he takes joy from it, so I guess we're all projecting onto him :dunno: I think you're simply not reading beneath the lines. Kevan's "kindness" in this chapter is only facilitated by Cersei's dejection, or so he imagines. Look at how sharp his response is when he thinks that she may be insinuating something when she mentions his wife and women knowing their place. I think that clarifies the true stance Kevan holds towards Cersei.

Well, we seem to be at an impasse, since we view this fundamentally different, and admit our views are personal and subjective.

[Tagganaro]

I don't think Kevan is leering at Cersei naked. But, I do think he thoroughly approves of her humiliation, perhaps even enjoys it, and sees it as a good way to remove her as a political player for good.

He dislikes Cersei and Jaime intensely (due to their incest), and throws Cersei's offer to be Hand back in her face. And, it's clear he's disgusted at her relationship with his son (who knows if his son has confessed his part in the murder of King Robert to him?)

Kevan is not really a nice man. He has no qualms about setting the Riverlands ablaze, and is quite willing to participate in his brother's crimes. He is, however, less shrewd than his brother. It wasn't just Cersei's reputation that got dragged through the mud, due to her walk of shame. It was the reputation of the whole of the Royal Family, and House Lannister. Tywin would never have permitted such an insult to his House, however angry towards a close relative he may have been.

Tommen could easily have been instructed to give both Queens a royal pardon, and then Cersei could have been packed off into retirement. The Tyrells would be happy with that, and they have 70,000 soldiers in and around Kings Landing.

While ideally that would be the case, we have no idea what Kevan was able to do here. He was kind of hamstrung by the High Septon and the Sparrows and the religious nut jobs. I highly doubt that he could instruct Tommen to pardon Cersei, and then they'd let her off scot-free. Actually, I don't just highly doubt it, it wouldn't happen. The HS insisted on Cersei being tried by the Faith. Kevan (probably smartly imo) was aware that he couldn't quite take on the Church- That would be an easy way to turn all of KL, and all of the realm against him, and now that Cersei has armed them that would essentially mean civil war.

[SeanF]

I used the wrong term "Royal Pardon", which implies guilt. King Tommen could simply issue a declaration that both Queens are innocent. That keeps the Tyrells on side.

The High Septon is on weak ground legally, as the acts that Cersei confesses to aren't actually crimes. Adultery by a Queen is treason; fornication by an unmarried widowed Queen isn't, however damaging it may be for her reputation.

Suppose the High Septon tries to defy the King in that situation. He has a few hundred men at best; the King has tens of thousands. By defying the King, he also exposes himself to a charge of treason.

Yes, there are risks for the Tyrell/Lannister government if there's a bloodbath at Baelor's Sept. But the risks are less than the total humilation that gets inflicted on the Royal Family and the Lannisters.

[Tagganaro]

I used the wrong term "Royal Pardon", which implies guilt. King Tommen could simply issue a declaration that both Queens are innocent. That keeps the Tyrells on side.

The High Septon is on weak ground legally, as the acts that Cersei confesses to aren't actually crimes. Adultery by a Queen is treason; fornication by an unmarried widowed Queen isn't, however damaging it may be for her reputation.

Suppose the High Septon tries to defy the King in that situation. He has a few hundred men at best; the King has tens of thousands. By defying the King, he also exposes himself to a charge of treason.

Yes, there are risks for the Tyrell/Lannister government if there's a bloodbath at Baelor's Sept. But the risks are less than the total humilation that gets inflicted on the Royal Family and the Lannisters.

The risks really aren't less than the humiliation of the WoS though- They are very tangible risks of a bloodbath. The HS doesn't just have a few hundred Poor Fellows (forgot the name of the armed knights of the Faith), he basically has the entirety of the population supporting him. If the Lannisters were to attack and murder them, or arrest the HS for treason, there would be uproar and probably revolution by the faithful.

I have no doubt the Lannisters/Tyrells could succeed with using their military might to defeat the HS and the Poor Fellows, but they'd fully and completely turn the entire population of KL, and probably the Realm against them. That would really be the end of any kind of power on their part imo.

[SeanF]

Could you seriously imagine Tywin allowing a niece of his to be treated in this way, in such a situation?

[David Selig]

You want to set-up a t chart and compare evil acts? It won't be close.

True. Kevan would be easily in the lead thanks to his role in managing and organising all the atrocities Gregor, Vargo, Lorch and their followers committed in the Riverlands.

[Tagganaro]

Could you seriously imagine Tywin allowing a niece of his to be treated in this way, in such a situation?

I have no idea. Probably not, but if he was alive, Cersei would have never been in power and have been allowed to arm the Faith in the first place, which is the direct cause of the current problem. If it was up to Tywin, Cersei was going to be forced to leave KL and go back to Casterly Rock, and probably going to be married again.

I really don't know what Tywin would allow or disallow- He's an awful human being and sexual humiliation for women seems to be his preferred method of ruling. But Tywin would be in a bind all the same, it would be tough/impossible to go against the HS and the faithful after Cersei empowered them, that's all I'm saying.

[FanTasy]

I would take a WoS over just about any other punishment in this society of brutal and unforgiving law. It's a traumatic act for her, but it's hardly a violent one.

In a psychological sense it is extremely violent :frown5:

For men there is a way out in Westeros: take the appropiate punishment, for instance gelding in case of rape, or take the Black.

There is no female equivalent for the Night's Watch for women. Maybe the Silent Sisters, they don't seem to have a happy life.

So, do you think a woman would chose life as Silent Sister before a walk of shame?

[LordBloodraven]

True. Kevan would be easily in the lead thanks to his role in managing and organising all the atrocities Gregor, Vargo, Lorch and their followers committed in the Riverlands.

No, that was Tywin's doing, not Kevan. Don't blame Jaime for the sack of KL, just because he's his father's son.

OT, I think Kevan's decision to go with the WoS was very stupid for the Lannisters. It puts Cersei aside in matters of governance, but she's still the Queen Regent and the king's mother. The king's mother has just been paraded naked among the smallfolk, how does that look for Tommen's PR. Confining her in her quarters should have been enough but I guess he couldn't negociate further with the High Sparrow.

I don't find him creepy. Well, Cersei was described as beautiful by all during her youth. Why would Kevan feel any different?