Just re-read the Red Wedding.

[Brony Stark]

Dacey. Dacey Mormont was the death that got to me the most. Robb had it coming, I still hated Cat at the time but all Dacey Mormont wanted was a dance. :bawl: :crying: :frown5:

[Simarilius]

I never noticed until a recent re-read that Walder Frey sneaks a 'mayhaps' into his speech.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Dacey. Dacey Mormont was the death that got to me the most. Robb had it coming, I still hated Cat at the time but all Dacey Mormont wanted was a dance. :bawl: :crying: :frown5:

I agree 100% Dacey and Smalljon were too sad :bawl: :crying: :bawl: :crying:

[mitch176]

As mentioned previously it was the Smalljon flipping the table that hit me the most, even in the face of certain death his first move was to protect his liege lord. 😥

[dem]

It's been said that Robb should have had the wedding on neutral ground, but he was really in no position to make that request. It's also been said that he had it coming; but it's not like he murdered a daughter, he only spurned them. In any case, the old bastard had him by the balls long before he arrived at The Twins and that's what really sinks in when you re-read the book. I still laugh out loud whenever I read the very end of the Arya chapter where the Hound says, "Now let's hurry up and get you to your brother's bloody wedding!" or something like that. Even though I usually feel a slight twinge of guilt for doing so.

I find one chapter in particular that always gets to me when I re-read Storm: A Jon chapter shortly before the climing of the Wall, when Jon and Ygritte's relationship is basically in its prime. Only because I know what's coming. Martin SO nails the way two young lovers are around eachother when everything is near perfect between them. If only they could have stayed in that cave forever. :(

[morgan1028]

I too was very upset by the RW.... no one seems to mention poor Wendel Manderly eating his lamb leg one second and then eating an arrow the next. I feel terrible but what a great shot

[The Answer]

What I find worse are all the chapters afterwards where you realise they are already starting to skew the truth and say Robb started it. Also I hoped that the story of them sewing Grey Wind's head onto Robb's body was a lie but it seems it was true. That upsets me more than anything, his bones won't end up back at Winterfell. Maybe none of the Starks will.

Yes, this is what kills me the most too. When he got killed I was furious, dropped the book and shook it off. But when I heard about Grey Wind (not to mention the crown nailed onto GreyWinds head), and thought about his bones never being returned. I ran like 5 miles and hit my heavy bag for like an hour... furious..

Have you seen David Selig's signature line about Catelyn? I don't understand how anyone can not sympathize with Cat, especially after reading that chapter.

I'm pretty sure I argued with you about Cat last week. I'm proud to say I have re-read some things and SLOWLY but surely I'm respecting her more. Thanks for eye opener

[Gypsy]

I'm on my first reread now. I'm almost finished with CofK and I am seriously considering NOT rereading the RW when I move on to SofS. It was so incredibly hard and awful the first time through. :( I have a friend who is reading the books for the first time. When she got there I got a text message "OMG! Both of them! OMG!" I don't know if I can go there again. :bawl:

[The Answer]

It's been said that Robb should have had the wedding on neutral ground, but he was really in no position to make that request. It's also been said that he had it coming; but it's not like he murdered a daughter, he only spurned them. In any case, the old bastard had him by the balls long before he arrived at The Twins and that's what really sinks in when you re-read the book. I still laugh out loud whenever I read the very end of the Arya chapter where the Hound says, "Now let's hurry up and get you to your brother's bloody wedding!" or something like that. Even though I usually feel a slight twinge of guilt for doing so.

I find one chapter in particular that always gets to me when I re-read Storm: A Jon chapter shortly before the climing of the Wall, when Jon and Ygritte's relationship is basically in its prime. Only because I know what's coming. Martin SO nails the way two young lovers are around eachother when everything is near perfect between them. If only they could have stayed in that cave forever. :(

Listen it's kind of embarrassing to admit it but I'm a romantic. And their break-up. and her eventual death hit me almost as hard as the RW. So I definitely feel you're pain there

[Kittykatknits]

I'm pretty sure I argued with you about Cat last week. I'm proud to say I have re-read some things and SLOWLY but surely I'm respecting her more. Thanks for eye opener

:blushing:

You probably did argue with me about Cat, lots of people on here have. :) I don't expect her to become your favorite character but I really appreciate that you're re-thinking her! I've had others on this board suggest alternate readings on many different aspects of the series that has caused me to change my mind more than once too.

[Booknerd2]

But really, House Frey is on the verge of destruction, which helps a bit.

They are so dead. Dacey, LJ, Robb, and so many others of many Houses; they killed at least one member of a few Northern houses, under their roof. When the Lannisters can't help them anymore or cut them loose, they are done.

Even Wyman has started with three of them. Stoneheart has started too.

[The GreatRon]

I also recently re read ASoS and didn't realize until I was finished with the chapter that my foot was slamming into the floor dun dun doom doom like the drums prevalent in the whole scene.

[Booknerd2]

This thread is making me re-live it. LOL! I am not up to that part yet again in my second series re-read.

Grey Wind made me feel eerie, so apparent he was warning him...

I was pissed at Robb for a hot minute, because that wolf was like his bodyguard and ripped out so many throats for him, that he should have just listened to the wolf. He was special. Even Bran and Rickon's wolves struck once they saw a threat in front of them, this guy flips and starts howling and acting antsy and they hadn't even entered the damned hall yet.

I kept repeating in my head. "Keep the wolf close...don't go in..." And then all hell broke loose. Gah!

I think with Walder and the Freys, I can't get over the nerve. Robb took Olyvar, two boys went to WF, Arya was still betrothed to a Frey, Edmure took a Frey for a wife. Walder should have let it go. Robb and his peeps were enemies, probably Jeyne marrying Robb got Walder out of picking sides. He could just tell the Lannisters that Robb Stark stood him up, and he would have Robb and co. leaving him alone currently, and still be in the good graces of the Lannisters.

Walder apparently didn't see he could have had his cake and ate it too, and letting the Robb slight go, he could have played both sides still.

Idiot. Heh.

Ah, Martin is such a great writer.

[Net-Viper X]

This thread is making me re-live it. LOL! I am not up to that part yet again in my second series re-read.

Grey Wind made me feel eerie, so apparent he was warning him...

I was pissed at Robb for a hot minute, because that wolf was like his bodyguard and ripped out so many throats for him, that he should have just listened to the wolf. He was special. Even Bran and Rickon's wolves struck once they saw a threat in front of them, this guy flips and starts howling and acting antsy and they hadn't even entered the damned hall yet.

I kept repeating in my head. "Keep the wolf close...don't go in..." And then all hell broke loose. Gah!

I think with Walder and the Freys, I can't get over the nerve. Robb took Olyvar, two boys went to WF, Arya was still betrothed to a Frey, Edmure took a Frey for a wife. Walder should have let it go. Robb and his peeps were enemies, probably Jeyne marrying Robb got Walder out of picking sides. He could just tell the Lannisters that Robb Stark stood him up, and he would have Robb and co. leaving him alone currently, and still be in the good graces of the Lannisters.

Walder apparently didn't see he could have had his cake and ate it too, and letting the Robb slight go, he could have played both sides still.

Idiot. Heh.

Ah, Martin is such a great writer.

Thats the thing about Walder Frey, he isn't the type of person that can just let a slight go. Every slight has to be paid for in spades, no matter the eventual consequences or how dishonorable it is. Hopefully Ramsey will live long enough to flay the old bastards dick before Stoneheart hangs him and his backstabbing family over the arches of the Twins.

In fact if Ramsey could manage to achieve the flaying of old Walders dick, I might have to find it in my heart to forgive Ramsey for all the bad shit he has done. Thats how bad I want to see Walder get whats coming to him.

[pat]

Thats the thing about Walder Frey, he isn't the type of person that can just let a slight go.

If you look at the Red Wedding you will notice Roose threaten the 2 walders Ramsey has at the Dreadfort. Walder Frey is a F.................. But i think Roose bullied the poor Dummy into going along. If walder was fully on board. why threaten the kids. Just my thoughts.

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

I've read it about 5 to 7 times and it is shocking but Robb should have smelled a trap.

1. Didn't listen to Grey Wind

2. Agreed to be married at the Twins and not a nuetral location.

3. Should have kept some high lords and forces behind just in case it was an ambush.

4. Mother should have not been there.

When you treat with someone as untrustworthy as Walder Frey make sure you have some horses left outside the barn . .

Cat/Robb knew it was a trap. The reader knew it was a trap. What we didn't know was just what the trap was. Was the trap related to Edmure's bride? Was it about drawing the armies from Riverrun? They didn't know exactly what it was, but they were all wary the whole time.

But they had exhausted all their options and realized that the war was lost if they didn't try and placate the Freys. Better risk a trap than straight up surrender the war and all be butchered.

[NachosOfIceAndFire]

Thats the thing about Walder Frey, he isn't the type of person that can just let a slight go. Every slight has to be paid for in spades, no matter the eventual consequences or how dishonorable it is. Hopefully Ramsey will live long enough to flay the old bastards dick before Stoneheart hangs him and his backstabbing family over the arches of the Twins.

In fact if Ramsey could manage to achieve the flaying of old Walders dick, I might have to find it in my heart to forgive Ramsey for all the bad shit he has done. Thats how bad I want to see Walder get whats coming to him.

The thing about the Red Wedding, it wasn't a just a 'slight' that Robb was doing. People seem to forget that Frey men were fighting and dying for Robb. They weren't fighting because they supported him as king in the North, but because the Frey and Stark houses were to be allied, when Robb broke his oath, all those men died for nothing. Just because Robb was a protaganist and Walder Frey is an evil old bastard, people tend to forgive Robb rather quickly. If any other character had broken an alliance and oath, people wouldn't be so quick to forgive.

[Tattered Prince Pumpkinn]

Oh yes, the bloody wedding. the idiot Edmure so busy having sex while his family drunk and dead. I am never gonna like that man. Hate his guts for kneeling.

[Winter Targaryen]

I just read it today myself. Both the Catelyn and Arya chapters. I've set the book down and will not be reading anymore today. No matter how many times I read it I cry. Every time Arya says her face must be wet from the rain I breakdown in tears. She can't bring herself to admit she's crying because wolf do not cry. Heartbreaking.

[bloody_mummer]

Cat/Robb knew it was a trap. The reader knew it was a trap. What we didn't know was just what the trap was. Was the trap related to Edmure's bride? Was it about drawing the armies from Riverrun? They didn't know exactly what it was, but they were all wary the whole time.

Agree. I totally knew something was not right, but it never dawned on my that he was going to kill the entire party.

I have mixed feelings about the scene. I did not like it as well as the book. I did not like the happiness and the fact that the musicians were good. However, I agree that as a reader, I was spoiled coming in, so no matter how good it was, it would not have elicted the same response for me.

I think the key is what another poster said. In the book, we see the RW through the eyes of Catelyn. In the show, we see it through the eyes of the guests. I understand why they did this. So much of the RW chapter was playing up that everyone was drunk out of their gourds. For 99% of the Starks there, it was a total shock. So, while I liked the book better, I cannot say that I did not like the scene on TV. Its showing the same event from 3 different persepctives.

I have not taken kindly to a lot of the changes they have made, but, nonetheless it is still a greta show, 100x better than most of the crap that is on...and, to be honest, I probably would have enjoyed the scene a lot better if I had not read the books.

I don't think the directors "dropped the ball"; they just made an artistic choice that is open to debate.