Unanswered Questions?

[Guest Other-in-law]

But how did Joffrey come to use that particular knife? I seem to recall that LF was very careful to tell Cat that Tyrion had won that knife betting against Jaime in a joust. We know that was false; therefore LF knew it was false. So why lie? It certainly appears to have been intended to cause suspicion to fall on Tyrion for some crime, and LF probably knew the crime as well. I just have to be very suspicious that LF actively encouraged Joffrey in this matter as well as in the beheading of Eddard:

I would rather describe LF's lie as a careless one, rather than a careful one, precisely because it could be (and was) disproven by others who remember the betting at that tourney. Still, he got away with it because of Cat's misplaced trust in him (she continued to be baffled by the mystery after she concluded Tyrion was innocent), and as he himself stated 'I thrive in chaos'. The conclusion to be drawn is that he sees Cat secretly showing up cloak and dagger style with scars on her hands and a tale of attempted murder of her son, after his mysterious fall during a Lannister visit, and he siezes the chance to sow some discord between houses Lannister and Stark. Which he had already started by having Lysa send the secret warning with the myrish lens. He doesn't need to plot out every last little detail, he just needs to grab his opportunities where he sees them. The volatile characters involved and pre-existing dislike between the two families makes it easy enough.

Joff's choice of such a conspicuous dagger was a typical stupidity on his part, and a convenient coincidence...but not really all that convenient; Tyrion truthfully did not win it or ever even own it. A lie was required to tie it to him, and if LF had more time to consider it he might have chosen a less easily exposed lie. Tyrion didn't bet against Jaime as a matter of general policy, LF would have been better off saying it was a different tilt entirely, but in the end it didn't matter.

[AvengingAryaFan]

...

Joff's choice of such a conspicuous dagger was a typical stupidity on his part, and a convenient coincidence...

You have LF seizing an unexpected opportunity, and Joffrey choosing the knife by coincidence. I sort of thought George didn't do coincidence, but we agree on the typical stupidity.

In view of LF's skill at avoiding blame, the knife does rather seem to "cut against" his having incited Joff to murder Bran - given its connection to him, that knife seems the last one LF would suggest Joff use. And if he had known that knife was used, LF should have used a less careless lie.

Still, even the plot to murder Bran required finding a willing assassin, and it was a long-distance operation that included setting a fire for distraction (not the assassin's idea, he kept muttering "nobody was supposed to be here."). The beheading of Eddard contrary to Cersei's wishes and Varys's expectations required careful, quiet preplanning as well. Are those two events evidence that Joff was more capable than he seemed, or are they, by being extreme "outliers" compared to his usual cruel but brainless behavior, evidence of influence by another (e.g., LF)?

Everything I actually "saw" Joff do on-screen reinforced my opinion that he was too dumb to pour piss from a boot, so I have to believe the latter. Here's my crackpot theory: LF nurtured clandestine influence over Joff. Joff mentioned what Robert said about killing Bran; LF encouraged him and made sure "Joff thought of" a practical plan. He may even have suggested that Joff use a knife that couldn't be traced to him (Joff) or Robert (hence not one of Robert's many knives). It would have been classic Joffrey stupidity to decide that LF's lovely knife was just the thing, and typical proprietary arrogance to take it without asking. Consequently, LF would have been surprised by the knife, not by the attempted murder.

LF developed surreptitious influence (Kettleblacks, Slynt, Corbray) the way Varys developed spies; LF told Sansa that you just need to know what people want, like Lyn Corbray wanted boys. Being close enough to develop influence over a vain and stupid boy, and probably knowing Robert's life expectancy, how could LF NOT establish influence over Joffrey? Such a relationship would conveniently explain the source of both of Joff's dastardly plans.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I should add that I think LF influencing Joff to have Ned beheaded is a perfectly reasonable theory, unlike him influencing the Bran murder attempt. Why? The means are so much superior.

In the former case, LF is completely up to speed on all the current events and is on the scene. He has any number of opportunities to whisper in Joff's ear (and he later admits he did exactly that about the dwarves for his wedding). It could very well have happened...or maybe not. It could also have just been Joff's stupid vindictiveness. But it did suit LF's agenda well since it destroyed any chance of a peaceful resolution to the Stark-Lannister conflict.

In the latter case, LF is halfway across Westeros from Winterfell, and he probably has only a sketchy idea of what's going on up there. Someone may have sent the Small Council a raven saying 'Lord Stark has agreed to become Hand, but alas, his heart is filled with sadness. His second son was seriously injured in a fall, and all share his grief, blah, blah, blah.' But probably not much more than that, scurrilous rumours and slanders seem unlikely in an official communique. Even more difficult is LF getting word back to Joff while he's either at WF or on the road. If a raven makes it to WF in time, how can he guarantee that someone else won't read it? There are plenty of pushy family members who might demand to see such a strange letter from the Master of Coin to the young prince, such as the King, the Queen, the Imp...and if they're already on the road it's that much harder to get in touch, never mind the secrecy difficulties for such a dangerous suggestion. Heck, I doubt LF would even want to risk putting something that dangerous in writing at all, let alone in a letter that would leave his control entirely. It's important to keep your hands clean, he later said. Could he even trust Joff to destroy the letter if it did get to him?

[Blackstone]

LF clearly wanted to kindle the Stark v. Lannister conflict. That was the reason LF sent the looking glass which tried to pin Arryn's murder on Cersei.

However, Bran's fall was far too random an event to take advantage of. LF was simply too far away to influence Joffery, even assuming that a message could have been sent. It's not like LF could use a raven for that.

[Jak o the Shadows]

LF clearly wanted to kindle the Stark v. Lannister conflict. That was the reason LF sent the looking glass which tried to pin Arryn's murder on Cersei.

However, Bran's fall was far too random an event to take advantage of. LF was simply too far away to influence Joffery, even assuming that a message could have been sent. It's not like LF could use a raven for that.

I agree. There was no way for him to influence Joffery in the attempted murder of Bran. With the killing of Ned I think its 50/50 weather he sugested the beheading, or if Joff was just being his usual charming self.

Joff choosing the knife he did was the worst possible thing for the Starks and a great opportunity for LF to cause even more problems.

On a side not I admire his drive, and skills. But I still hope he gets a death that is long lasting and painful.

[Tyro Lannister]

What is Tom o' Sevens going to accomplish at Riverrun?

We know he was planning on wintering there from the conversation he had with Jaime in the last chapters of AFfC. Will he and his companions take the castle and hold it in secret for the BwB?

[AvengingAryaFan]

What is Tom o' Sevens going to accomplish at Riverrun?

We know he was planning on wintering there from the conversation he had with Jaime in the last chapters of AFfC. Will he and his companions take the castle and hold it in secret for the BwB?

Tom 'o Sevens is spying for the BwB, who want to hang every person that abetted the Red Wedding. Now that it is transitioning to Lannister hands, Riverrun is a great post - it will have Freys and Lannisters coming and going, people unfamiliar with each other, and staff that is surreptitiously opposed to Lannisters and Freys. That should make information easy to get, and also make it easy for Tom to communicate with the BwB without raising suspicion.

But the BwB has only the strength to tackle small parties of men by surprise; they need to remain invisible so a large force can't corner them. They wouldn't move any place as obvious as a castle, and in any case haven't the strength to hold a castle against frontal assault.

LF is halfway across Westeros from Winterfell, and he probably has only a sketchy idea of what's going on up there. ... Even more difficult is LF getting word back to Joff while he's either at WF or on the road. ... It's important to keep your hands clean, he later said. ...

I concede. Unless I can establish plausible means for LF to find out about Bran's coma and Robert's comment, and to influence Joff in that regard, LF appears uninvolved.

But I strongly doubt that Joff conceived, planned and executed a long-distance murder complete with a tactical diversion. Hence another unanswered question: who influenced Joff to kill Bran, or at least helped him plan and execute it?

While I think it's weak to assume that the lack of evidence for a guiding hand constitutes evidence that there was none, I must admit that actual evidence that Joff did it all on his own would certainly change my perception of him, and would undercut the theory that LF guided the beheading of Ned. Maybe Joff's just been sandbagging us, and actually belongs in the Westerosi pantheon of evil geniuses.

[Dothwacky]

I dont think its overly hard.

Joff overhears his Father, raids the stash for a knife, no doubt doing Dr Evil style motions when he sees the Valyrian blade (because he's such an idiot he wouldn't consider value and recognition of rarity). Find a suitable scumbag in the retinue and have it done. Joff is/was a cruel boy.

Littlefinger and Varys have connections all over the place and knew everything by the time the Starks encounter them, and the opportunity presented itself to muddy up the waters more. Lannisters have already been implicated with Lysa's lens to Cat. Ned is already going to KL to look into it.

Suddenly an attempt on the child's life, and LF manages to persuade the honorable idiots that it was done to silence Bran... If they'd have stopped for 30 seconds and considered, thats the shoddiest and most unsubtle way to go about it, ever. I think it just adds to taking advantage of addled minds and stirring the pot. LF didn't plan or manipulate it, but people report all the time to others.

[Zoliv]

There is a question for which i never found an answer (definitely the right topic, isn't it ?) :

Why does Edric Dayne, heir to Starfall, never seem to think about going home ? And even stranger : nobody tries to find him (for all we know). He is nearly the most important guy of his House / city, so we should see more anxious movements to find him, no ?

[Guest Other-in-law]

Why does Edric Dayne, heir to Starfall, never seem to think about going home ?

Well, we're not privy to his thoughts since he's not a POV, and we only spent a fairly brief time with him anyway, so it doesn't mean anything that we don't hear about that. Even if he did want to go home (which is very possible) he seems to take his duties as a squire seriously. And since squiring on campaign is sort of supposed to help make a man out of noble boys (Jaime fought the Kingswood Brotherhood as a squire and won his knighthood then) he wouldn't want to come across as a crybaby (though he does bellyache about the rain beating on his helm). You're supposed to show that you can endure the hardships of war and have what it takes to eventually be a knight.

And even stranger : nobody tries to find him (for all we know). He is nearly the most important guy of his House / city, so we should see more anxious movements to find him, no ?

That is a good question. Maybe there is a Dornish equivalent of Brienne out searching for 'a boy of twelve with pale blond hair, more ash than honey, and eyes a blue so dark they look almost purple'?

[hnv]

Who is Coldhands?

What happened at Summerhall?

I speculate that coldhands is benjen stark is a half wight form

and I think I read that the summerhall thing was an attempt to put life into dragon eggs

[Errant Bard]

That is a good question. Maybe there is a Dornish equivalent of Brienne out searching for 'a boy of twelve with pale blond hair, more ash than honey, and eyes a blue so dark they look almost purple'?

Or you can look at another explanation: Beric and his little band became outlaws as soon as Robert died. Edric Dayne stuck with Beric out of duty and admiration for the guy's ideals, but in the process became as much a wanted man than Beric Dondarrion, Simon Toyne or Sansa Stark are, despite their noble birth.

Anyway, we see VERY anxious movements to find him. Most of the countryside was questioned by whole parties of soldier to try and find him. (The questions were usually: where is lord Beric? who was with him? is there gold in the village?...)

As the balance of power stands and until the Brotherhood is rehabilitated (which might never happen), I think Ned Dayne is either thought dead or stripped of all his rights by the crown and the remaining family he has that serves it, or both. It would be romantic ironic enough to have him become Robin Hood the next Toyne and end on a Kings(Queens?)guard sword.

From this point of view, he doesn't have many options. He either stays an outlaw or makes for the Wall. Tarly (the iron crown) would hang him. Stannis would not forgive him being a bandit, and would certainly knight him before lopping his head off, like Davos except for a worse offense, and all the other potential claimants to the iron throne can't look for him and need him where he is.

This leads me to my question, as I have not reread AFFC yet: What did Brienne expect to do with Sansa once she found her, with the Lannisters in power, Winterfell burned, Catelyn dead and Sansa convicted of regicide?

[Gaston de Foix]

This leads me to my question, as I have not reread AFFC yet: What did Brienne expect to do with Sansa once she found her, with the Lannisters in power, Winterfell burned, Catelyn dead and Sansa convicted of regicide?

my guess is hide her, maybe in Tarth?

[Errant Bard]

my guess is hide her, maybe in Tarth?

That would be a bit daft of her, since Sansa is already hidden, and obviously has supporters who helped her kill Joff, escape and stay undetected. She knows that, since she is looking for her in the Riverlands, and not around King's Landing. After all her asking around, if she actually found a girl matching Sansa's description, she would draw attention on her even by staying in her general vicinity, like the Mad Mouse does not. Hiding her in Tarth... would require her to blow Sansa's current cover, likely make a mess, maybe get chased through the realm, openly, with a girl she was known to look for. All in all, Lannister soldiers could be in Tarth before she even set foot on it. (Unless government had grown totally incompetent, which, with Tywin dead, Tyrion gone, Varys gone and Jaime supporting her, might seem true, but on lower echelons I doubt efficiency has diminished. Tarly is still here, Tyrells have reasons to make her a scapegoat, and spy networks ought to still work.)

No, she ought to have had another plan than that, especially considering she's looking for Sansa because her oath demanded her to return to Catelyn with her daughters. Following that Oath in spirit should mean to find the girl and deliver her to her closest, still standing kin, or something like that. Problem is, as far as Brienne knows, all the Starks died, even Arya (in the rape of Saltpans), so she cannot fulfill her oath anymore, she can only make it more likely that the girl ends in Lannister hands.

[Tyro Lannister]

Tom 'o Sevens is spying for the BwB, who want to hang every person that abetted the Red Wedding. Now that it is transitioning to Lannister hands, Riverrun is a great post - it will have Freys and Lannisters coming and going, people unfamiliar with each other, and staff that is surreptitiously opposed to Lannisters and Freys. That should make information easy to get, and also make it easy for Tom to communicate with the BwB without raising suspicion.

But the BwB has only the strength to tackle small parties of men by surprise; they need to remain invisible so a large force can't corner them. They wouldn't move any place as obvious as a castle, and in any case haven't the strength to hold a castle against frontal assault.

You're forgetting the Tully soldiers that were expelled from Riverrun into the countryside, I should have mentioned them, they would likely meet up with the BwB in some form in a very short time and would be the strength that would hold the castle.

But I do like the idea of Tom playing the spy for a while..

[AvengingAryaFan]

You're forgetting the Tully soldiers that were expelled from Riverrun into the countryside, I should have mentioned them, they would likely meet up with the BwB in some form in a very short time and would be the strength that would hold the castle.

But I do like the idea of Tom playing the spy for a while..

Even with a larger garrison, it would be unwise to put themselves in a position from which they can't escape.

It would be fun if the Tully men, including Ser Desmond Grell, Ser Robyn Rygar and the Blackfish all ended up with the BwB ... maybe it'd get back to doing justice. I'd like to see the RW conspirators killed by the ones, twos and tens, with the rest cowering terrified inside their walls. Well, this is the season of hope ...

[Gaston de Foix]

That would be a bit daft of her, since Sansa is already hidden, and obviously has supporters who helped her kill Joff, escape and stay undetected. She knows that, since she is looking for her in the Riverlands, and not around King's Landing. After all her asking around, if she actually found a girl matching Sansa's description, she would draw attention on her even by staying in her general vicinity, like the Mad Mouse does not. Hiding her in Tarth... would require her to blow Sansa's current cover, likely make a mess, maybe get chased through the realm, openly, with a girl she was known to look for. All in all, Lannister soldiers could be in Tarth before she even set foot on it. (Unless government had grown totally incompetent, which, with Tywin dead, Tyrion gone, Varys gone and Jaime supporting her, might seem true, but on lower echelons I doubt efficiency has diminished. Tarly is still here, Tyrells have reasons to make her a scapegoat, and spy networks ought to still work.)

No, she ought to have had another plan than that, especially considering she's looking for Sansa because her oath demanded her to return to Catelyn with her daughters. Following that Oath in spirit should mean to find the girl and deliver her to her closest, still standing kin, or something like that. Problem is, as far as Brienne knows, all the Starks died, even Arya (in the rape of Saltpans), so she cannot fulfill her oath anymore, she can only make it more likely that the girl ends in Lannister hands.

Brienne does not accept that Sansa killed Joffrey. She says so in AFFC. She thinks Sansa escaped with Dontos, not the most inconspicuous of people. As for blowing her cover, it depends. You seem to assume that Brienne knows Sansa is with powerful, discrete, intelligent 'protectors' like Littlefinger. There's no reason for Brienne to assume that. Sansa could be in a much worse position, (see women, of Winterfell) for all she knows. As for Lannister soldiers realising, again it depends. The realm as a whole certainly has people looking for Sansa Stark, such as the Mad Mouse. Tarly is certainly keeping an eye out for the girl. That doesn't mean that everyone is. It's conceivable that Brienne can quietly and discretely travel to Tarth with Sansa without being prominent. Tarth sounds pretty isolated. I certainly don't think she has any better plan. Perhaps take the girl to Jaime, but what on earth will Jaime do?

[Errant Bard]

Brienne does not accept that Sansa killed Joffrey. She says so in AFFC.

But her opinion is irrelevant. It's the Lannisters and all the ones who rule and support them who matter.

You seem to assume that Brienne knows Sansa is with powerful, discrete, intelligent 'protectors' like Littlefinger. There's no reason for Brienne to assume that.

She is looking far from King's Landing, Sansa would not have gone that far without protectors, and neither she nor the Lannister soldiers, nor the bounty hunters are finding her. Brienne finds actually more on Arya than on Sansa. If from that she cannot assume that Sansa is better hidden than she could do, whoever her "protectors" may turn to be, I don't know how she ever could.

Tarly is certainly keeping an eye out for the girl. That doesn't mean that everyone is. It's conceivable that Brienne can quietly and discretely travel to Tarth with Sansa without being prominent.

Oh, but it does. Hyle Hunt is here. What will Brienne do, butcher him and leave him in a ditch? Pretend Sansa is her natural daughter when she reaches Tarth?

I certainly don't think she has any better plan. Perhaps take the girl to Jaime, but what on earth will Jaime do?

If that was her plan, Giving Sansa to Jaime gives even more reason for Catelyn to hang her. That was one of the accusation of Lem, when Brienne said she was looking for her. It sounds anathema to the vow she took, it was to exchange Jaime for Cat's daughter, and bring them safe to Cat, and here she would actually bring Sansa back to the lannister den?

Going in exile like Willen Darry and the Targaryen sounds a better option, if she ever managed to not get caught or murdered on the way, either by outlaws, Lannister soldiers or bounty hunters like the Mad Mouse.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Anyway, we see VERY anxious movements to find him. Most of the countryside was questioned by whole parties of soldier to try and find him. (The questions were usually: where is lord Beric? who was with him? is there gold in the village?...)

As the balance of power stands and until the Brotherhood is rehabilitated (which might never happen), I think Ned Dayne is either thought dead or stripped of all his rights by the crown and the remaining family he has that serves it, or both.

I think this is overstating things a bit. First Edric isn't the one they're all looking for...at least not directly or for himself. They want Thoros and Beric primarily, and now Lady Stoneheart. They do want to put an end to the other outlaws, but I suspect many of the lowborn ones could successfully reintegrate into society. After all, Hot Pie and his new family have basically done just that. As long as the general public of the Riverlands doesn't turn against them (as devious Arthur Dayne got the Kingswood smallfolk to do against the outlaws of old), what's to keep the others from doing the same? Being a nobody can be an advantage.

As for his fate if captured, I think Podrick Payne is a useful precedent. He was basically caught red-handed of stealing from the Lannister supply chain, but even icy Lord Tywin pardoned him because of his youth and high birth, rather than string him up like his partner in crime. Ned's crimes are more serious, but he's only two years older and much, much higher of birth. He could easily get a pardon, depending on how crazy his judge is.

[AvengingAryaFan]

I think this is overstating things a bit. First Edric isn't the one they're all looking for...

...

Uh ... I don't think E.Bard was trying to be subtle about his irony.