Heresy 22

[Ciazio]

Came across this post by Lord Pendragon on another thread, which I think may have some relevance to Jon and in particular to the R+L=J theory, and expectations that Jon will discover he's Jon Targaryen, rightful king of Westeros:

<snip>

He may (possibly) therefore be Ice and Fire combined, but as I've pointed out before the women may be more important and this suggests he's going to win through not as a secret Targaryen, not as a head of the dragon, but as a Stark.

On a side note one may also add that - being Jon slightly influenced by wildling culture - won't care if he has "king's blood" nor succeed because of it but because of his own personality and deeds.

That's - I think - one of the biggest differences between Jon and Dany, he is all like "blood doesn't matter" and Dany all like "I'm da blood of da dragonz".

[Efilnikufesin]

Sorry to digress from the point at hand, but in my thinking upon the Fir Bolg and Fomorians (been spelling it wrong as Famorians, please forgive, I just keep wanting to put that a in there,) I think I have a bit of info that deems the white walkers as Fomorians. Nothing completely solid, but it maybe some insight in what we don't see in the maps furthu north in Land of Always Winter.

Just wiki, but it has a nice map:

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Tory_Island

Edit: guess it might be helpful to include this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

[Efilnikufesin]

Just to through out some crackpottery, nothing serious, but has anyone thought upon the female aspects of the Seven, the Crone, Maiden, and Mother as possibly aspects of the triple goddess "The Morrigan?"

[Lummel]

Do you have some more thought on that to share Efilnikufesin :)

[Efilnikufesin]

Do you have some more thought on that to share Efilnikufesin :)

Hope to with some time, can't find the quote at the moment that brought me to say it, still looking into my Fomorians. Trying to go back, just completely overtired and can't sleep nor put together a good thought right now.

[Black Crow]

Try this link: http://en.wikipedia....i/The_Morrígan

What's particularly interesting is her tendency to turn up as a crow.

While Bran/Bryn is the Welsh word used for the crow in the Mabinogion and most people are comfortable with the identification of Bryn Blackwood with the Three-eyed-Crow, you'll recall we've occasionally had our doubts, firstly as to whether he really is the mad genius orchestrating everything and whether he is actually the Three-eyed-Crow given his vagueness when asked by Bran Stark. There's also that odd thought we had about whether he himself was recruited as a greenseer by a Three-eyed-Crow while he was languishing in the Dark Cells.

In other words the Three-eyed Crow may not be Bloodraven/Bryn Blackwood at all, but the Morrigan, who after all has three aspects.

[Ciazio]

Try this link: http://en.wikipedia....i/The_Morrígan

In other words the Three-eyed Crow may not be Bloodraven/Bryn Blackwood at all, but the Morrigan, who after all has three aspects.

The Morrígan ("phantom queen") or Mórrígan ("great queen") is a figure from Irish mythology who appears to have been considered a goddess

And this makes me think about my old suggestion of the existence of an "Other Queen" or "Ant Queen" or "Faerie Queen". The one who "married" the Night's King.

Can't remember from what Heresy was it, maybe 19 18.

Is BR working for her?

ETA, got it: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70972-heresy-18/page__st__300#entry3451605

[jon rr stark]

Came across this post by Lord Pendragon on another thread, which I think may have some relevance to Jon and in particular to the R+L=J theory, and expectations that Jon will discover he's Jon Targaryen, rightful king of Westeros:

He may (possibly) therefore be Ice and Fire combined, but as I've pointed out before the women may be more important and this suggests he's going to win through not as a secret Targaryen, not as a head of the dragon, but as a Stark.

Unfortunately hes more ice than fire at the moment :crying:

[Efilnikufesin]

Here's the quote I had seen that led me to start thinking it

Morrigan as Crone aspect?

The Morrigan's major form is of an old woman, wrapped in a cape of black raven feathers. Sometimes she takes the form of the death raven announcing death, or the banshee predicting it with shrieks. She is the thunderhead that descends at death, and the soul which is torn from the body rises through it like lightning. Her body becomes the conduit of death, the stormy pathway of the soul

Edit: Even better quote here:

In true Celtic tradition, The Morrigan has appeared in a variety of Triple Goddess trinities. She has appeared in a Triple Goddess, which was comprised of the same person who had three different ages. She has also appeared in the more traditional Triple Goddess in which there is a Maiden, a Mother and a Crone, and she has always taken on the role of the Crone.

[Black Crow]

Yes pretty much as described in the Wikipedia article linked above, and if we also combine this emphasis on triple aspects with her tendency to appear as a crow, it doesn't really take any great leap of the imagination to see a Three-eyed-Crow.

And moreover while the Morrigan is closely associated with battle and death, the three aspects also relate to the continuance of the natural cycle through renewal exactly as we've discussed before in relation to the nature of the linkage between the Children and the Others - and as a side issue of course, just as in the story of Tam Lin there seems to be an awful lot of warging/skinchanging involved as well.

[Black Crow]

Just an idle thought spinning off from talk of the Morrigan, if, as seems to be the case GRRM is drawing his inspiration for the things going bump in the night north of the Wall from Celtic mythology, who might be modelled on Cu Chulainn? :cool4:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Chulainn

[Efilnikufesin]

Just an idle thought spinning off from talk of the Morrigan, if, as seems to be the case GRRM is drawing his inspiration for the things going bump in the night north of the Wall from Celtic mythology, who might be modelled on Cu Chulainn? :cool4:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Cú_Chulainn

Have been pondering that myself after reading this story recently.

Have also been thinking upon the crone and wolf forms and if they might relate to the GoHH and Ghost.

Edit: Kind of want to say Jon, but feels to easy. I think of the story of Lugh resembling the Last Hero a bit, and Cu Cullian is the son of Lugh. If the LH was a Stark, Jon is not the son of but descendant of the LH.

[7V3N]

Would Azor Ahai not fit a Smith, Warrior, and possibly a Father as well?

[Efilnikufesin]

Would Azor Ahai not fit a Smith, Warrior, and possibly a Father as well?

I could see that, especially if Lugh is related to the Last Hero at all. Lugh is also known as a triple god in ways, plus is master of many skills.

[Black Crow]

I'm less convinced by this one, than the Morrigan, but would make the general observation that while a distinction is drawn in text between the Old Gods and the New, our own experience suggests that the two may be one and the same under different names.

[Efilnikufesin]

I'm less convinced by this one, than the Morrigan, but would make the general observation that while a distinction is drawn in text between the Old Gods and the New, our own experience suggests that the two may be one and the same under different names.

I'm not totally conviced on it. Had reread the story of Lugh and the Hall of Tara, he definitely shows aspects of the Warrior and Smith, but nothing specific about the Father really at all.

Any thoughts upon an equivalence to Bres in the books?

Edit: Link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bres

[Black Crow]

Sorry to digress from the point at hand, but in my thinking upon the Fir Bolg and Fomorians (been spelling it wrong as Famorians, please forgive, I just keep wanting to put that a in there,) I think I have a bit of info that deems the white walkers as Fomorians. Nothing completely solid, but it maybe some insight in what we don't see in the maps furthu north in Land of Always Winter.

Just wiki, but it has a nice map:

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Tory_Island

Edit: guess it might be helpful to include this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

The Fomorians sound more like something to do with the Drowned God (and the Ironborn) than the Others/Sidhe

[Efilnikufesin]

The Fomorians sound more like something to do with the Drowned God (and the Ironborn) than the Others/Sidhe

That's a thought too. Some of where I get it from in the post is the location of Tory Island where supposedly the Fomorians ruled. At the extreme north which was have not ventured into on the books so far, and the Others appear to be coming from.

The twist being that the Others have the persona of the Fomorians, but the look of ice "Sidhe."

[jon rr stark]

That's a thought too. Some of where I get it from in the post is the location of Tory Island where supposedly the Fomorians ruled. At the extreme north which was have not ventured into on the books so far, and the Others appear to be coming from.

The twist being that the Others have the persona of the Fomorians, but the look of ice "Sidhe."

The fomorians would have been the first inhabitans of Ireland. If there is a parallel with the others then they are an original species or inhabitants of westeros perhaps sharing with the CotF. One parallel could be they had relatively few numbers so were thought to be wiped out by successive invasions or simply left if they were seafairers.

I cant see any link with Tory island which is tiny (incidently it does have a king even today) and the north.

The fomorians are more like the the drowned god. Their semi-god like and nasty status would come from the tales told by the fir-blog to make their invasions seem more heroic and fearsome.

Perhaps if there is any inspiration to be drawn for the others it would be 'we were here first so you lot can all bog off, thats why we hate you all, cos your a bunch of theives'. See realy not so bad afterall.

[Efilnikufesin]

Had the link up a bit for Tory Island: here it is again, and an except from it:

In the apocryphal history of Ireland, Lebor Gabála Érenn, Tory Island was the site of Conand's Tower, the stronghold of the Fomorians, before they were defeated by the Nemedians in a great battle on the island. The later Fomorian king Balor of the evil eye also lived here.^[10] Balor would imprison Ethlinn in a tower built atop Tor Mór (or Túr Mór in Old Irish, meaning The High Tower). Tor Mór is the island's highest point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory_Island

Plus, from another post I had ealier in the thread wher I explained it more.

Fir Bolg/Fomorians?=CotF/Others?

First Men?=Sidhe?

Andals?=Sons of Mil?

Based upon the arrival and battles and the order in which each was displaced. There were other races such as the Nemedians involved in the process with lesser importance, but they may well apply.