Heresy 18

[Budj]

Has anyone touched on the comparison of the relationship of the wights / others and warging? Could that suggest a missing link to skin-changing between first men and the others? Two possibilities at the top of my head here are old gods magic related to first men deals with living creatures while the others warg dead things...perhaps the Night's King was a warg that went bad? OR warging is more related in general to the others and some weird intermixing is what explains the ability in first men?

[7V3N]

Has anyone touched on the comparison of the relationship of the wights / others and warging? Could that suggest a missing link to skin-changing between first men and the others? Two possibilities at the top of my head here are old gods magic related to first men deals with living creatures while the others warg dead things...perhaps the Night's King was a warg that went bad? OR warging is more related in general to the others and some weird intermixing is what explains the ability in first men?

Check out the link in my signature.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Here's a thought... with regard to the nomenclature...

White Walkers = White Walkers...

Others = White Walkers and/or Their undead thralls

As Eleana and others have suggested, regardless of when the WW arrived, it seems the wights are a recent development. This does not seem unreasonable. If what I've suggested is accurate, and the WW are treating humans like tools/mindless-slaves, it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that the WW do something to their victims to re-animate them. This idea is supported by Jon's corpses in the ice cells. They froze to death in the weirwood grove beyond the wall but remained dead.

Waymar wasn't alarmed about their situation until it was way too late... but Gared and Will - seasoned rangers both - were very uneasy, and seemingly with a specific threat in mind. **EDIT - (As I see too late that someone else already typed the following quote)** "There's some enemies a fire will keep away...bears and direwolves and ... and other things..." Perhaps they had heard rumors. We'll never know. What we do know, is that Waymar became a wight (fairly quickly, as well... though that's the kind of thing I wouldn't want to base future deductions on, as it came from the Prologue of AGoT, very, very early on in GRRM's creation of ASOIAF.) and it is safe to assume that both WW & Wights had been around for some time before Waymar's ranging. Months? Years? Probably closer to the former for Wights, and the latter for White Walkers.

----------

W/ regard to the WW/Wights/Wargs .... I don't like it... I can probably come up with some decent evidence/arguments to support my dislike, but I don't want to do that tonight. Suffice it to say, I don't like it. Any permutation of human warging bothers me immensely. The story would suffer tremendously from such a plot device. "Ah, but you see, that didn't count because he was being warged by person X at the time."

[Tyryan Lannister]

W/ regard to the WW/Wights/Wargs .... I don't like it... I can probably come up with some decent evidence/arguments to support my dislike, but I don't want to do that tonight. Suffice it to say, I don't like it. Any permutation of human warging bothers me immensely. The story would suffer tremendously from such a plot device. "Ah, but you see, that didn't count because he was being warged by person X at the time."

Yep. Cersei actually isn't a giant stupid bitch; she's just been warged by that tomcat the whole time. It is known.

[nanother]

Interesting, when Jon asks Tormund about the Others, the WW don't even come up:

The wildling rubbed his mouth. “Not here,” he mumbled, “not this side o’ your Wall.” The old

man glanced uneasily toward the trees in their white mantles. “They’re never far, you know. They won’t

come out by day, not when that old sun’s shining, but don’t think that means they went away. Shadows

never go away. Might be you don’t see them, but they’re always clinging to your heels.”

“Did they trouble you on your way south?”

“They never came in force, if that’s your meaning, but they were with us all the same, nibbling

at our edges. We lost more outriders than I care to think about, and it was worth your life to fall behind

or wander off. Every nightfall we’d ring our camps with fire. They don’t like fire much, and no mistake.

When the snows came, though … snow and sleet and freezing rain, it’s bloody hard to find dry wood or

get your kindling lit, and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like

that, you always find some dead come the morning. ’Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd …

my boy, he …” Tormund turned his face away.

“I know,” said Jon Snow.

Tormund turned back. “You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a

hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how

do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your

chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?”

It's not clear who he's talking about in the first paragraph, but it sounds like it's about the 'dead men' all the time until he gets to the 'cold' and 'mists'. So the wights are afraid of their fires, but the 'cold' can apparently shuffle them out - is that natural cold or something to do with the Others? I never experienced real cold, let alone trying to keep a fire alive in it, so it might very well be how it works...

And the mists...are the mists another form of the WW? Or a third cast of Others, with the wights being cannon-fodder, the WW the elite troops and the mists control them all? The 'white cold' and/or mists are often mentioned when Other activity is described, but strangely, not in the AGOT prologue. Cold and wind yes, but no visual effect, apart from the gliding white shadows...

[Tyryan Lannister]

Interesting, when Jon asks Tormund about the Others, the WW don't even come up:

It's not clear who he's talking about in the first paragraph, but it sounds like it's about the 'dead men' all the time until he gets to the 'cold' and 'mists'. So the wights are afraid of their fires, but the 'cold' can apparently shuffle them out - is that natural cold or something to do with the Others? I never experienced real cold, let alone trying to keep a fire alive in it, so it might very well be how it works...

And the mists...are the mists another form of the WW? Or a third cast of Others, with the wights being cannon-fodder, the WW the elite troops and the mists control them all? The 'white cold' and/or mists are often mentioned when Other activity is described, but strangely, not in the AGOT prologue. Cold and wind yes, but no visual effect, apart from the gliding white shadows...

I (and I would think most if not all of the Heretical Community) would agree with the mists being very important. Just wanna add that the reason the mists aren't described in the Game prologue is that GRRM probably hadn't developed that part of it yet.

[nanother]

Also, and interesting view on fire from the first Bran chpter in ADWD:

Coldhands had warned them against [lighting a fire]. These woods are not as empty as you think, he had said. You cannot know what the light might summon from the darkness.

Now, he might very well refer to humans, seeing that he just went back to dispatch some rogue crows and there there were groups of wildlings migrating in various directions after the battle at CB, but could it mean other things as well?

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

"can your sword cut cold?"

Not yet!

[Black Crow]

Interesting, when Jon asks Tormund about the Others, the WW don't even come up:

It's not clear who he's talking about in the first paragraph, but it sounds like it's about the 'dead men' all the time until he gets to the 'cold' and 'mists'. So the wights are afraid of their fires, but the 'cold' can apparently shuffle them out - is that natural cold or something to do with the Others? I never experienced real cold, let alone trying to keep a fire alive in it, so it might very well be how it works...

And the mists...are the mists another form of the WW? Or a third cast of Others, with the wights being cannon-fodder, the WW the elite troops and the mists control them all? The 'white cold' and/or mists are often mentioned when Other activity is described, but strangely, not in the AGOT prologue. Cold and wind yes, but no visual effect, apart from the gliding white shadows...

This is something we discussed many heresies ago and there are two options. Tormund certainly appears to be describing the Others/Sidhe/White Walkers rather than the Wights. If you go back to Sam's findings, they appear to be able to travel on the wind (like the Sidhe) in the form of a cold mist - presumably of fine ice crystals, and assume a corporeal form at will - but not in direct sunlight or in proximity to fire when they are liable to melt - not necessarily as dramatically as the one sam pinked with his dragonglass dagger. Its magic.

The other alternative, that the Others are the cold mist and Craster's sons their rangers would appear to be ruled out by the way Sam's one disappeared rather than make an elegant corpse.

[FanTasy]

One interesting thing that has bothered me about the prologue is that Will mentioned that dead men sing no songs, and I interpreted that as in they could not get any information from the dead. I suppose the dead not singing songs can have another implication considering this story :D

Gared says later that since the wildlings are dead, they shan't trouble us no more. However I think this could have been a deliberate choice of words since he wanted to leave, he had a bad bad feeling, and that perhaps he thought this could help convince Royce (who Gared surely thought would not listen to talk about wights and other things that come with the cold).

Gared: "We need a fire. I'll see to it."

Royce: How big a fool are you, old man? If there are enemies in this wood, a fire is the last things we want."

"There's some enemies a fire will keep away," Gared said, "Bears and direwolves and... and other things..."

Considering they were not setting up camp, why would Gared want a fire?

So, I'm not sure Gared do not actually know about the wights. I don't think it is a clear case anyhow.

I'm sure Gared and Will would have heard stories, but if they were sure about dead people instantly being wightified, why wouldn't they have said so more explicitly? Was it just Royce's arrogance and fear of contradicting the boss that kept them from being more articulate about it?

I think the Night's Watch didn't knew at that time what was going on. They knew less than the wildlings knew, which in a way seems logical.

There were more wildlings around, there was a better chance that some of them survived a wight attack or saw something than that a ranger survived or saw something.

Or could it be that the wights were at that point not 'programmed' to attack the men of the Night's Watch?

If so, then the killing of Royce and/or something else the Others did in the prologue was the start of programming them against the Night's Watch?

Maybe wights are programmed to attack their own kind at first.

From Othors' attack we know they can be programmed to attack a certain person (he passed Jon's room in trying to get at Mormont), they 'remember'.

I always found it strange that the wildlings Gared/Will (I always forget who survived because of that switch in the TV show) saw were not there.

They seemed dead, they didn't move. If so, what happened to them? Why weren't they wightified and wouldn't they have sought out Royce's party if they were?

edited, language

[FanTasy]

It's not clear who he's talking about in the first paragraph, but it sounds like it's about the 'dead men' all the time until he gets to the 'cold' and 'mists'. So the wights are afraid of their fires, but the 'cold' can apparently shuffle them out - is that natural cold or something to do with the Others? I never experienced real cold, let alone trying to keep a fire alive in it, so it might very well be how it works...

And the mists...are the mists another form of the WW? Or a third cast of Others, with the wights being cannon-fodder, the WW the elite troops and the mists control them all? The 'white cold' and/or mists are often mentioned when Other activity is described, but strangely, not in the AGOT prologue. Cold and wind yes, but no visual effect, apart from the gliding white shadows...

About the mist. I think it could be the stuff that makes the Others appear - or maybe it makes them materialise.

Also I am bugged by that they are called shadows, Because there is someone present at the Wall who is a shadow-binder.

We have seen her do something with two shadows, she has 'bound' them.

For a while I thought the icy kind of shadows (the white walkers) were produced in a similar way, by the union of human seed and by a 'Melisandre' with pale eyes, another shadow-binder. But I started to doubt that when GRRM said that the Others were 'inhuman'. Surely he would not have said this if they are half-human.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Here's a thought... with regard to the nomenclature...

White Walkers = White Walkers...

Others = White Walkers and/or Their undead thralls

This seems to fit best with Old Nan's story in the beginning. Originally she speaks of the 'white walkers' and then Bran interrupts with "The others?", and Nan agrees and continues on talking about 'cold things', 'dead things'. Previously when we discussed this quotation I believe we had rested on the fact that people weren't quite sure what to make them of them, and the truth was lost to time. However, she does specificailly say 'cold things, dead things', which in respect to the current topic seems as if shes referring to both white walkers, and the wights.

Although it would be really funny if we got a Nan pov and found out she was really saying 'wight walkers' and Bran not knowing what a wight was interpreted it as 'white walkers' :D

[nanother]

This is something we discussed many heresies ago and there are two options. Tormund certainly appears to be describing the Others/Sidhe/White Walkers rather than the Wights. If you go back to Sam's findings, they appear to be able to travel on the wind (like the Sidhe) in the form of a cold mist - presumably of fine ice crystals, and assume a corporeal form at will - but not in direct sunlight or in proximity to fire when they are liable to melt - not necessarily as dramatically as the one sam pinked with his dragonglass dagger. Its magic.

The other alternative, that the Others are the cold mist and Craster's sons their rangers would appear to be ruled out by the way Sam's one disappeared rather than make an elegant corpse.

Sam's findings? I can't find them. The ones I can link them with cold and dark and snow storms, but mist/wind?

Anyway, since Jon asked about the Others, which usually mean the WW, it'd make sense to assume that Tormund was talking about them. But it's far from clear, and I wonder what's up with that cold that causes fires to shrivel and die? My feeling is that it's mostly the wights that fire keeps away and the WW, while they might not like it, are not necessarily that vulnerable to (regular) fire.

As for Craster's Sons, it seems like there's at least two ways for the force of Cold to utilize humans (and if the theories about interbreeding are true that's a third way): the dead ones as wights, and babies eventually becoming WW, as it's widely thought. If we accept that, then it's either an group of ice-transformed humans producing more of themselves, or there's a master race that produces and uses these ice-magicked humans. The magic involved is the same in either case and will turn a human into something that dissolves into puddle/mist. Of course, we never actually see Craster's Sons, they might not be WW, who knows.

BTW, the NW people Coldhands kills are likely to be the bunch that rebelled at Craster's - which would imply that they survived whatever happened there...

About the mist. I think it could be the stuff that makes the Others appear - or maybe it makes them materialise.

Also I am bugged by that they are called shadows, Because there is someone present at the Wall who is a shadow-binder.

We have seen her do something with two shadows, she has 'bound' them.

For a while I thought the icy kind of shadows (the white walkers) were produced in a similar way, by the union of human seed and by a 'Melisandre' with pale eyes, another shadow-binder. But I started to doubt that when GRRM said that the Others were 'inhuman'. Surely he would not have said this if they are half-human.

Oh yes, you very well might be onto something with tht. If Stannis' shadw is anything to go by, I think 'inhuman' is absolutely fitting.

[jon rr stark]

I think there are examples in both celtic and norse mythology of fairys (elves/sidhe) coming with or of being a mist. They are part of the same enchantment also the wrights or dwarves living underground or for the most part being invisible only interferring with people when they distrupt them.

So the cold/mist and the WW maybe both an aspect of the same thing as opposed to the mist coming before the WW or visa versa.

There maybe more than one type of wright just as there are several varieties of dwarf in norse mythology. The wrights tormund refers too harrying the march left the dead behind not the ones that reanimate bodies. These are the ones that have always been there like shadows pretty much minding their own business unless paths crossed.

[FanTasy]

Oh yes, you very well might be onto something with tht. If Stannis' shadw is anything to go by, I think 'inhuman' is absolutely fitting.

Gotto check up on that famous quote again, Maybe he said they 'looked' inhuman. Mel's shadowbabys looked inhuman but were in a way partly human, in the sense that they were made of a shadow cast by a human. (ETA As she showed Jon in ADWD)

[nanother]

Wasn't it from an email to a graphic artist? So it'd be primarily about looks.

Anyway, what I mean about Stan's shadow (and Mel's practices in general) that although human...errrm...components were used, the result looks and feels pretty much inhuman. Which could easily be the case with the WW. So maybe Craster's sons don't grow up to be WW, but serve as seed donors?

[FanTasy]

So maybe Craster's sons don't grow up to be WW, but serve as seed donors?

Har!

In one of the earliest Heresy threads I remember supposing that Craster's sons were not offered to the white walkers, but to the Children of the Forest. :devil:

To serve as seed donors for the Children. I had the impression all Children we, Bran and Arya have met were female.

And because it struck me as not a coincidence that basically that was what the offerings made by Craster were: the male children.

Of course there have been male Children of the Forest in ye olden days, they were the warriors.

But maybe the male Children have died out.

I thought for a while the creatures Bran meets that were entangled in (ETA the other) caves were those captured and held children of Craster. :ack:

[hotweaselsoup]

Gotto check up on that famous quote again, Maybe he said they 'looked' inhuman. Mel's shadowbabys looked inhuman but were in a way partly human, in the sense that they were made of a shadow cast by a human. (ETA As she showed Jon in ADWD)

This is probably quibbling, but there is a difference between "inhuman" and "non-human". A cold and cruel person can be described as inhuman - Roose Bolton, for instance - so I'm not sure GRRM's description of the WW as inhuman should lead us to conclude that they are non-human.

[Ciazio]

Wasn't it from an email to a graphic artist? So it'd be primarily about looks.

Anyway, what I mean about Stan's shadow (and Mel's practices in general) that although human...errrm...components were used, the result looks and feels pretty much inhuman. Which could easily be the case with the WW. So maybe Craster's sons don't grow up to be WW, but serve as seed donors?

I'd define Mel's shadowbabies as inhuman, so if the WW were truly the results of interbreeding between men and something else (the Others?) they would be the Night's King's sons. Perhaps the "real Others" are a matriarcal female-only race, and the only one we know is the Night's Queen.

And, without going to say that Craster's sons were taken by the CoTF, I'd say that they were taken by the WW and brought in the Lands of Always Winter to actually act as seed donors to produce more WW from the queens.

So we could have 3 layers:

1. Queens - the true Others, female only
   
2. White Walkers - the ones we saw in AGoT Prologue, sons of the Night's King and Craster's nephews
   
3. Wights - cannon fodder, raised deads
   

That would make them very similar to ants and/or bees, with few Queens and many male/slaves.

And now the questions... If we admit that no-one gave male offerings to the WW since the Night's King's times... Can we say that Craster's offerings have been the fuse of this late WW's "invasion"? Moreover... was he aware of it? And if yes... why was he doing this? Who told him what/how to do?

ETA: the fact that we saw only female CoTF strengthen my beliefs in the theory that the Sidhe are indeed the fighting arm of the CoTF. Two faces of the same race, formed only by females, who intermingle with humans to produce their slaves.

[FanTasy]

So we could have 3 layers:

1. Queens - the true Others, female only
   
2. White Walkers - the ones we saw in AGoT Prologue, sons of the Night's King and Craster's nephews
   
3. Wights - cannon fodder, raised deads
   

That would make them very similar to ants and/or bees, with few Queens and many male/slaves.

And now the questions... If we admit that no-one gave male offerings to the WW since the Night's King's times... Can we say that Craster's offerings have been the fuse of this late WW's "invasion"? Moreover... was he aware of it? And if yes... why was he doing it? Who told him?

Interesting, never thought of the Great Other as a female power, as an opposing (balancing?) power against R'hlor, who has always struck me as male. Mel talks about a male R'hlor?

ETA Great Other ... Great Mother ... LOL