Heresy 18

[alienarea]

If we're following the Sidhe model then the Queen of Faerie taking a mortal consort is an absolutely classic outcome - and one which makes me wonder if Val is more than just a priestess

She's dressed in white. Blends in with Ghost. The gelding talk posted above. And Val is short for Valhalla mayhaps. Could be she's the Queen of Faerie descending to the wall to battle Melisandre for the seed and soul of Jon Snow (who might be better of dead).

[Stark@heart]

The Ice Queen, Queen Fairie, Great Mother...

Back to the Night's King. He supposedly fell in love with a female white walker, which at least to this point there has been no indication of another female white walker. A simplification of the story itself? That LC fell to some temptation from the great other, and it was characterized as "some woman" causing the problem?

Now we know who Ned's mom is :cool4:

But seriously - Her identity has got to be a part of this, else why keep it secret. Which just gave me a horrible thought. What if Ned's mom was - no one. A wildling girl captured young and raised in Winterfell with the young Rickard and when he became Lord, there was no one to stop him from marrying the girl he'd grown to love. Way , Way Crackpot but imagine if she was a daughter of Crasters who fled instead of becoming a wife and ended up in Winterfell.

That's still yuck. I really don't want Craster to be related to the Starks in anyway but... since we have no idea who Ned's mom is suppose to be anyway - Why not blame her?

[Black Crow]

On balance I think not. Marrying a wildling girl, whether one of Craster's brood or not, is the sort of thing that would be remembered. Her being unmemorable suggests something relatively mundane like one of the mountain clans.

[mediterraneo]

I think that Benjen ( along with Mance) has been working with/for Bloodraven and that his part of the story was to get Jon to the Wall; with that accomplished, he knew that remaining there would not let Jon "kill the boy" so he left (kind of like Obi-won letting Vader kil him for Luke's development). So Ben went into hiding until he learned that there was/soon would be no Stark in Winterfell, leading him to run south and hide out in the crypts (AFTER Bran et al. have left) and becoming the Hooded man.

....

I'm quite some page late but...

Has it ever been suggested that - given the presence and frequence of glamors around Mance Raider, his freedom of movement and knowledge both north and south of the Wall, his cloack in the Targaryen colors and Benjen Stark's ability to rule Winterfell up until the Targaryen's defeat but not later, and even the unending respect Benjen Stark has from his enemies in the Free People, even after his disappearence...

Has it ever been suggested the Mance Raider IS Benjen Stark?

Benjen was north of the Wall for most of his time, wandering it, as Mance did for years, gaining renown between the free people withut and befor becoming their King.

The way in which the "wildlings" react to Jon's identity as a "Stark" with such respect and with a restrain on harming him is interesting, whatever it mean.

Maybe the previous generation of the Watch leaders knew things about the North and the seasons that we the readers do not.

What exactly did Mormont know about Craster's practices? And why did the Free People respect Craster, with all the girls there to be stolen, and with him being just one man? It is not like his aid to the Watch was a secret.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people out there in the great North knowing what they are doing, and not telling us.

Is it told anywhere with whom Mance Raider did serve? And where? Or is it like my (poor) memory suggest: we are left without knowing.

And if it turns out that it had been talked about to the consumption, sorry about it.

I'd be even happy to be told "You know nothing, Mediterraneo" from the right redhead girl...

[Eyron]

I don't mean they warg living humans...dead ones. It has already been shown that warging a living human (postulation of being the old gods / nature-ish version of warging) is nigh impossible unless the human is a simpleton.

Absolutely correct.

I can't even begin to stress how many times I have said that WARGING A REANIMATED CORPSE WOULD NOT BE AT ALL THE SAME AS WARGING A LIVING HUMAN. Sigh. Sorry for the tantrum, I just don't like to have to repeat this every thread or so. It is so obvious to me that I can't see any serious way how this can be folded into the "then every one could be warged!" - scenario. Just as having faceless men do not make everyone a secret FM.

The White Queen versus the Red King? And the Wall as a hinge always made me think of a folding chess-board...

I like the idea of the Grand Poobah of the White Side being a female entity. It makes sense in GRRM's yin-yang world.

ETA as an aside: Thinking of the male/female dichotomy, I wonder if the "rod" and "ring" that the maesters earn signify mastery over the "male" and "female" aspects of whichever discipline they are studying? And the "mask", which signifies "grand mastery" of the discipline, is perhaps the "neutral" aspect? That aspect which is neither male nor female, but is perhaps the union of the two, and hence neither of the two? I keep thinking of GRRM's love of that strange oxymoronic state - "white shadows", "burning cold", sex where the distinction where male and female is lost, and of course all the strange hybrid creatures which seem to exist as the result of impossible matings...

Love it...

Mel also talks of the union between man and woman (which she wants Jon to join in... Urgh) as a holy matter that will give them magic powers.

We touched upon the Moon cult before, and that the Moon cycle is attributed to femininity in contrast to the Sun and daytime that is attributed to masculinity, in old superstitious tradition. The Moon - Untamed Nature - the Irrational = Female. The Sun - Agriculture - the Rational = Male.

Not that I think so, it was just part of Christian medieval thinking, and it's still going strong in some traditions of thought.

And of course, GRRM has noted this in the Dothraki culture: Moon = Dany, Sun = Drogo. And in the Quartheen story of the birth of dragons, the Moon kissed the Sun.

I have read through pretty much all of the threads and not sure if any connection has been made with the Wild Hunt.

Having been reading up on the Sidhe more, I noticed that the Unseelie participated in Wild Hunt's, along with Odin , King Arthur, Sir Francis Drake.

Still working out in my head but I feel I see a few good parallels happening there.

I posted something about Odin's hunt as we call it, bit it is basically the same myth as the Wild Hunt. Might give you some more food for thought.

[nanother]

Warging et. al: The evidence for and against wights, their purpose, their potential programming...

The 5 most prevalent wights are; Waymar Royce, Othor, Jafer Flowers, Small Paul and Thistle. Then we have the other wights, Chett, Lark, and Softfoot who were all part of the conspiracy, and Hake and Ryles who were not.

Chett wanted to kill Sam before he died, Lark and Softfoot were part of that plan, so them "tracking" Sam makes a certain sense. Hake and Ryles though make it seem that either wights blindly follow other wights, the baby is what they're racking, or they're just going after anything human.

Waymar strangles Will, who was possibly mad and pissed at Will towards his death, but more that Will was right nearby for Waymar to kill. Small Paul helped Sam before he died, but he was also simple. In anycase, he seems to be of the any human will do lot.

Thistle seems to know that Varamyr is in one-eye, implying the wights take something with them in death, maybe making it as simple as kill anything you remember?

Othor and Jafer are the most confusing, and therefore perhaps contain the most answer. They didn't rise immediately, and to be fair, neither did Small Paul, but Thistle seems to rise somewhat quickly, as does Waymar.

Jafer could have shambled in any direction for all we know, but he did kill Jeremy Rykker, the acting 1st Ranger. Jafer would probably know the Rangers best, so memory of him might be strongest, or Rykker just knew it was his duty to protect and was part of the force by chance and was cut down since he'd take a lead.

Othor going after Mormont screams of outside influence. Both of them not rising until nightfall was convenient, (or a specific part of the wight's rising), and sure, Othor probably had memory of Mormont, but the specific task of going directly to Mormont?

(we spent a lot of time on this in the early heresies)

More notable wights:

the dead wildings Will saw - as I think FanTasy pointed out, it's strange that they just got up and went away. It's possible that the Others wanted them out of the picture for some reason, but in hindsight it seems unusual that it'd be a whle group of Others dealing with Royce and no wights.

the ones that went after Bran - I think "go after anything human" would be a good guess for default wight activity. Also, it works for the animated hand Ghost deals with, and IIRC Othor's hand was also still active after cut/ripped off, which are unliekly to have any memories or to be warged, so I'd think they need something simple and straightforward to keep them going...I suppose they might have an on/off funciton, so that they don't rise if it's not convenient and a go_to(place) function which sometimes needs to override the default...or maybe they are just warged or otherwise controlled when that's needed. But yes, one has to wonder whether/how their past memories change their behaviour

also, sounds like some of Tormund's dead didn't rise (on their way to the Wall)

BTW, does anyone else find it strange that Varamyr didn't see himself as wight? I have memories of him thinking that his wolves would eat him, but I don't think there was time for that to happen...

[Sand Snake No. 9]

. . .

Waymar strangles Will, who was possibly mad and pissed at Will towards his death, but more that Will was right nearby for Waymar to kill. Small Paul helped Sam before he died, but he was also simple. In anycase, he seems to be of the any human will do lot.

Thistle seems to know that Varamyr is in one-eye, implying the wights take something with them in death, maybe making it as simple as kill anything you remember?

. . .

Some theorize that the Red Undead – Beric and UnCat – are motivated by the thoughts or goals they had at the time of their death. Certainly Beric continued to act like he was enforcing the King's justice, and UnCat is consumed by thoughts of revenge for the RW. If we believe in a unified theory of magic, i.e., that ice, fire, blood and whatever basically have the same source and produce basically the same result, then similarly motivated wights make sense. Perhaps the wights that went after Mormont were angry that they were ordered to go ranging to their deaths? It does, however, seem that they were sent on a mission.

She's dressed in white. Blends in with Ghost. The gelding talk posted above. And Val is short for Valhalla mayhaps. Could be she's the Queen of Faerie descending to the wall to battle Melisandre for the seed and soul of Jon Snow (who might be better of dead).

I definitely agree that Val is more than she seems. It also seems clear that the conflict between Melisandre and the culture/gods/weather of the North is on the way. I would cheer if Val and Melisandre have it out, but I think it's more likely that she and Bloodraven fight over Jon.

On balance I think not. Marrying a wildling girl, whether one of Craster's brood or not, is the sort of thing that would be remembered. Her being unmemorable suggests something relatively mundane like one of the mountain clans.

My crackpot is that Ned's mom was from Skagos, and that when Osha took Rickon there she was taking him home. Skagos is also a throw-back to older Northern traditions and magic, and the idea that there's some of the old blood in the Stark kids to balance out that Tully nonsense appeals to me. (Yes I know the Tullys are descended from the First Men; they are just so assimilated.)

[Eyron]

ETA Great Other ... Great Mother ... LOL

Misa Misa... Or Nissa Nissa?

[The Lost Lord]

New GRRM interview up:

Q: Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?

A: Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

[Eyron]

Sweet, Lost Lord!

More Heresy fodder :D

[Tyryan Lannister]

Just as an aside, because I think there's mileage in the Queen of Faerie train of thought...

Another reference to 1,000 years ago came up in my re-read. Sam Tarly when asking to take his vows before the Old Gods, admits that his familiy have worshipped the Seven for 1,000 years. Of itself it might not be significant, but their conversion from the Old Gods to the New/Seven therefore coincides with (according to Catelyn Tully) the burning of the weirwoods 1,000 years ago.

It makes you wonder what the Striding Huntsman is hunting...

The White Queen versus the Red King? And the Wall as a hinge always made me think of a folding chess-board...

I like the idea of the Grand Poobah of the White Side being a female entity. It makes sense in GRRM's yin-yang world.

Maybe they've come out into the world because they currently don't have a Queen?

I would say that we have three potential candidates to fulfill this rule:

Sansa the Winter Princess

Cersei the Cold Hearted Bitch (who I personally believe would make an amazing Faerie Queen)

and Mel or Dany... would fit perfectly for Martin to cause there to be a switch at the end where a "Firey" becomes a "Faerie" so to speak; although of the two I would lean more towards Mel; it would also help explain why her powers are stronger at the Wall.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Now we know who Ned's mom is :cool4:

But seriously - Her identity has got to be a part of this, else why keep it secret. Which just gave me a horrible thought. What if Ned's mom was - no one. A wildling girl captured young and raised in Winterfell with the young Rickard and when he became Lord, there was no one to stop him from marrying the girl he'd grown to love. Way , Way Crackpot but imagine if she was a daughter of Crasters who fled instead of becoming a wife and ended up in Winterfell.

That's still yuck. I really don't want Craster to be related to the Starks in anyway but... since we have no idea who Ned's mom is suppose to be anyway - Why not blame her?

It's stated repeatedly that Ned's mom has Flint blood, so I think not. On the other hand, Rickard's mother...

[Tyryan Lannister]

New GRRM interview up:

From this, something I find very important:

"the Starks have split off into other branches at times (the Karstarks are one example, but there may be others)

ETA: there's a lot of possibly useful stuff in there. Highly suggest reading it

[Eyron]

And Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) likely has some little Snows running about... o_O

[Tyryan Lannister]

"You're right. Melisandre has gone to Stannis entirely on her own, and has her own agenda." Knew she was rogue...

[Kanon]

I think this part of the interview might be important for this thread:

And there's another important thing to consider: the North is special. Not just anyone can rule the North. Remember the conversation between Robb and Catelyn when they were discussing this topic: Cat talks about distant relatives with Stark blood in the Vale, and Robb says "No one can rule the North if theý're not of the North. There's an option much nearer to us," and so Cat says, "Never." Well, you see two options rejected right there for different reasons.

[Tyryan Lannister]

My crackpot is that Ned's mom was from Skagos, and that when Osha took Rickon there she was taking him home. Skagos is also a throw-back to older Northern traditions and magic, and the idea that there's some of the old blood in the Stark kids to balance out that Tully nonsense appeals to me. (Yes I know the Tullys are descended from the First Men; they are just so assimilated.)

At first glance I completely disagree with Ned's mother being from Skagos on the basis of two things: 1) the fact that she is often called a Flint and 2) I feel that if it was known that a Stark married one of those weirdo-Skagosi, someone would have used it as a means of vilifying the Starks.

HOWEVER, there must be a reason why we are often told the his mother has Flint blood. We also know that the Flint's apparently have branches ruling as lords every twenty leagues or something like that. What if the ruling family on Skagos is also a Flint? Rickard, drawing on the fact that he knows that a Skagosi wife would not be accepted and that he has a great friend in the Flints of the Mountains makes an arrangement: he marries this Skagosi Flint with whom he has fallen in love, and in return for their silence on the matter, the Skagosi get immense autonomy and the Mountain Flints get to claim that one of theirs is the Lady Stark.

I agree that there is probably some sort of Stark connection to Skagos; this is based on my belief that when Maester Luwin asked Osha to kill him, he also told her to take Rickon to Skagos where he would be safe. From what we've heard of the "cannibalistic barbarians" of Skagos, I feel that he would only do so if he knew beyond a sliver of a doubt that Rickon would be safe there; I also feel that the only way Wex could know that they went to Skagos is if he heard someone mention it, and I feel that the only time it would have been mentioned is when Luwin, dying next to the tree in which Wex was hiding, tells Osha to take Rickon there.

ETA: So, might be off on the Flint thing... forgot that it's Ned's Grandmother, not his Mother, who we're often reminded of being a Flint. Still, this current Skagosi post still holds in that instance I feel

[Tyryan Lannister]

I think this part of the interview might be important for this thread:

And there's another important thing to consider: the North is special. Not just anyone can rule the North. Remember the conversation between Robb and Catelyn when they were discussing this topic: Cat talks about distant relatives with Stark blood in the Vale, and Robb says "No one can rule the North if theý're not of the North. There's an option much nearer to us," and so Cat says, "Never." Well, you see two options rejected right there for different reasons.

Pretty sure the option that Cat rejects outright is Jon

ETA: but if you're getting at the "must be of the North part", yeah, totally agree

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Saying someone has Flint blood does not preclude that person from having Skagosi blood. So maybe the mother of someone's mother is from Skagos? I just feel that there's some connection, but since I'm only going on a feeling I might be entirely wrong.

[greygnarl]

Pretty sure the option that Cat rejects outright is Jon

ETA: but if you're getting at the "must be of the North part", yeah, totally agree

It is definitely Jon. Also I think that there is no way that Benjen can be Mance Rayder. There would just be too many roles to play. Thirdly, I am a stark supporter of the belief that corpses can be warged by humans. Think of Bran driving an Other from a wight and turning it against him.

Edit:Where is a good online location to learn about the Sidhe?

Also, is Sidhe pronounced shee? Thirdly, hi I'm new.