Heresy 18

[FanTasy]

Again in that interview an interesting point about blood lines with regards to Targaryens and Lannisters too.

Yes, I'm glad what I posted (not on this thread I think) about Tywin wanting to create a pure bloodline was not my most crackpot theorette :drunk:.

More and more I think there is something GRRM has in store for us and that has to do with if Jon is indeed the joining of fire and ice.

If he has a role to fulfill in whatever the endgame is the mainstream line of thinking is that being half Stark-half Targaryen will enable him to do whatever needs to be done to save the day.

But ... what if he can't do what is needed because he is part dragon?

What if it requires someone who is half Stark-half Dayne?

If Jon's arc would be to become the Stark in Winterfell I suppose it it is not too important if he is Brandon's son or Ned's son. (ETA) But being part dragon and Lyanna's son?

I think it would be also important if Jon needs to become the Sword of the Morning, for instance to slay the Others and save the day in a next battle for the dawn to end the night that is dark and full of terrors :cool4:

It is possible that the 'office' of the Sword of the Morning can't be fulfilled by someone who is not (part)Dayne.

[Katerrinah]

On Jon's parantage... It seems like he's already chosen his path (ie: fight the others, save humanity), so I see it as whatever the effect of either knowing his parentage, or his blood (like an inherritance), itd probably be within what his choice is. I doubt he's going to abandon his upbringing and identity as a "stark" (of the North) to become a grand targ ruler. He's more likely to follow the stark route (either fighting the others, or going with them) . Jon is being set up as a leader, but his change of heart to include the wildings as those under his protection, I see him as heading towards being more open to an aliance with the children or say the others (sidhe), depending of what is revealed. I'd be terribly disapointed if he turned against the North.

[Ciazio]

Yes, I'm glad what I posted (not on this thread I think) about Tywin wanting to create a pure bloodline was not my most crackpot theorette :drunk:.

Just a random thought: if true... this might mean that Tywin knew about the twincest and was somehow... happy of it :eek:

[Black Crow]

A couple of thoughts to keep the pot boiling before I launch Heresy 19 later tonight:

Once again the ongoing forensic re-read of AGoT has turned up something significant. We've been talking about how things are "different" beyond the Wall and how there are hints that the Others/White Walkers are perhaps more of a piece of the furniture up there than most people believe. Here's Osha speaking to Bran about why she came south. Its a passage which has been quoted before in relation to the link between White Walkers and rangers, but not in full...

"The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back... or if they do, they're not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember."

Its not quite the story we've been told about Mance, but that's neither here nor there. The interesting bit is the pretty clear statement that the White Walkers (and perhaps the wights too) regularly come in the long winters.

[Black Crow]

And then another thought going on from this:

Q: Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?

A: Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

GRRM has confirmed that the "guest right" business is an Old Gods thing. The popular belief beyond heresy land is that when those creepy Children of the Forest saved the Last Hero, they did so with fire and sword (or at least dragonglass) and helped him to defeat them, as they will now help Bran to do the same.

What if they did nothing of the sort. What if saving him was no more than extending the protection of guest right?

[Lummel]

Just a random thought: if true... this might mean that Tywin knew about the twincest and was somehow... happy of it :eek:

I can believe Tywin knowing and turning a blind eye to it...and perhaps glad that it would be his double grandson sitting on the Iron Throne one day.

...What if they did nothing of the sort. What if saving him was no more than extending the protection of guest right?

I can see guest right as the mechanism by which the last hero gets himself saved from his pursurers, but that's quite a radical outreach you are proposing there for guest right, well beyond sanctuary, bread and board, certainly a broader interrpretation than we've seen so far in the books - not that this rules the idea out of course.

[FanTasy]

A couple of thoughts to keep the pot boiling before I launch Heresy 19 later tonight:

Once again the ongoing forensic re-read of AGoT has turned up something significant. We've been talking about how things are "different" beyond the Wall and how there are hints that the Others/White Walkers are perhaps more of a piece of the furniture up there than most people believe. Here's Osha speaking to Bran about why she came south. Its a passage which has been quoted before in relation to the link between White Walkers and rangers, but not in full...

"The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back... or if they do, they're not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember."

Its not quite the story we've been told about Mance, but that's neither here nor there. The interesting bit is the pretty clear statement that the White Walkers (and perhaps the wights too) regularly come in the long winters.

What is Osha saying here? Mance is (1) a crow who flew down from the Wall (2) who calls himself King beyond the Wall and (3) thinks he can fight the white walkers like they were rangers and (4) he's never tasted winter.

Is she implying - a contrario - that Mance could fight the white walkers if he did not call himself king but if he was the true king beyond the wall, a king who tasted winter?

In other words, that it needs a king who tasted winter / a king of winter to be able to fight the white walkers?

A Stark? The true wildling king?

One of the line of thoughts on this forum is that when the raven calls Jon 'king' it is reference to that he is the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen and therefore the rightful king of the Seven Kingdoms.

To me it seems more logical that the raven is talking about Jon as the intended King beyond the Wall, as the true King of Winter.

[Jaimeisnotazombie]

What is Osha saying here? Mance is (1) a crow who flew down from the Wall (2) who calls himself King beyond the Wall and (3) thinks he can fight the white walkers like they were rangers and (4) he's never tasted winter.

Is she implying - a contrario - that Mance could fight the white walkers if he did not call himself king but if he was the true king beyond the wall, a king who tasted winter?

In other words, that it needs a king who tasted winter / a king of winter to be able to fight the white walkers?

A Stark? The true wildling king?

One of the line of thoughts on this forum is that when the raven calls Jon 'king' it is reference to that he is the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen and therefore the rightful king of the Seven Kingdoms.

To me it seems more logical that the raven is talking about Jon as the intended King beyond the Wall, as the true King of Winter.

This sounds good to me, once Jon is free of his vows due to his " appearent death", he could slowly gain loyalty amongst the rank of wildlings, thormund is on his side for sure.

i think the king beyond the wall, with stark blood would equal the king of winter.

[Black Crow]

I can see guest right as the mechanism by which the last hero gets himself saved from his pursurers, but that's quite a radical outreach you are proposing there for guest right, well beyond sanctuary, bread and board, certainly a broader interrpretation than we've seen so far in the books - not that this rules the idea out of course.

I'm not sure that it is a radical outreach at all. The basic problem we've always had is that the story gets cut short with the Last Hero being pursued by the Others. Next we're told Bran remembers that the Children saved him. We're not told how they saved him and more importantly we're not told how the whole thing finished up and whether and how the Others were actually defeated.

That I think may be a different story. The Last Hero story surely finishes with him stumbling across a cave entrance just as Bran and his party do and being granted guest right sanctuary - he's saved and that's the end of that story. Figuring out what happened next is a whole different ball game, but the simple statement by Bran that they saved him isn't really consistent with anything more complicated than their saving his hide rather than all humanity.

[Black Crow]

What is Osha saying here? Mance is (1) a crow who flew down from the Wall (2) who calls himself King beyond the Wall and (3) thinks he can fight the white walkers like they were rangers and (4) he's never tasted winter.

Is she implying - a contrario - that Mance could fight the white walkers if he did not call himself king but if he was the true king beyond the wall, a king who tasted winter?

In other words, that it needs a king who tasted winter / a king of winter to be able to fight the white walkers?

A Stark? The true wildling king?

One of the line of thoughts on this forum is that when the raven calls Jon 'king' it is reference to that he is the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen and therefore the rightful king of the Seven Kingdoms.

To me it seems more logical that the raven is talking about Jon as the intended King beyond the Wall, as the true King of Winter.

I think this is overanalysing it a little. All I was pointing out was that according to Mance's version, which as I recall was backed up by Mormont, he was himself a wildling who was adopted by the Watch. Osha is denying that he was anything of the sort. She may simply have got that wrong, but the point she was making is that "true" wildlings know that in the long winters the White Walkers come and are a whole lot more dangerous than Mance thinks they are.

The implications are (1) The White Walkers, as we've been discussing, are a part of the scenery beyond the Wall, not something new, and (2) Osha is saying that Mance doesn't know as much about what goes on above the Wall as he pretends.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I think this is overanalysing it a little. All I was pointing out was that according to Mance's version, which as I recall was backed up by Mormont, he was himself a wildling who was adopted by the Watch. Osha is denying that he was anything of the sort. She may simply have got that wrong, but the point she was making is that "true" wildlings know that in the long winters the White Walkers come and are a whole lot more dangerous than Mance thinks they are.

The implications are (1) The White Walkers, as we've been discussing, are a part of the scenery beyond the Wall, not something new, and (2) Osha is saying that Mance doesn't know as much about what goes on above the Wall as he pretends.

But wasn't it that he had wildling parentage but was still born and raised at the Shadow Tower? He has the free folk blood, but he never lived as one of them until he fled the Watch.

[Lummel]

I would agree that the last hero slipping into the children's hollow hill and claiming guest right would be enough to save him and I suppose that could be the end of the story. But I'm not sure that guest right could be extended to provide a means for the last hero to overcome the white walkers, although presumably while claiming guest right maybe he could have asked the Children to arrange peace talks :dunno:

[Black Crow]

I would agree that the last hero slipping into the children's hollow hill and claiming guest right would be enough to save him and I suppose that could be the end of the story. But I'm not sure that guest right could be extended to provide a means for the last hero to overcome the white walkers, although presumably while claiming guest right maybe he could have asked the Children to arrange peace talks :dunno:

That's why I'm suggesting in a way its a different story. In the one being told by Old Nan he is saved by the Children - offering him guest right. That's all Bran remembers her saying, that they saved him, not that they saved the world. Presumably the story either continues or is followed by part the second in which the Last Hero, having thus been saved, then himself makes some sort of pact.

If GRRM is indeed following Faerie precedent here such arrangements can only be made by the principal, eg: hero agrees to serve the Queen of Faerie for a year and a day, or until something unlikely comes to pass. No-one else (eg: the Children) can agree anything on his behalf far less bind him to it.

[Black Crow]

But wasn't it that he had wildling parentage but was still born and raised at the Shadow Tower? He has the free folk blood, but he never lived as one of them until he fled the Watch.

It was Qhorin Halfhand: "He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again."

This doesn't say how young he was, but he was taken as a "child" so presumably was older than a "babe". As a rule dead men tell no tales (yes, I know, we're beyond the Wall...) so while it would be a natural assumption that the kid they didn't kill was a Wildling, Osha is clearly suggesting otherwise.

[Ser Leftwich]

It was Qhorin Halfhand: "He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again."

This doesn't say how young he was, but he was taken as a "child" so presumably was older than a "babe". As a rule dead men tell no tales (yes, I know, we're beyond the Wall...) so while it would be a natural assumption that the kid they didn't kill was a Wildling, Osha is clearly suggesting otherwise.

This discussion of Mance brings up a potential big issue with Mance which might have a bigger thematic/story impact.

How much choice did Mance have about joining the Night's Watch? Since he was taken/rescued as a "child" and raised at the Shadow Tower, was he, in effect, forced to join the Night's Watch?

[7V3N]

As in Brandon and Lyanna?

Unfortunately, yes. Doubtful, but still a theory.

:commie: :commie: Heresy rocks :commie: :commie:

Haha yeah! My subthread about the Others and COTF (the one you "recruited" me from) has spiked in interest since this interview. I vote that when the series is done, right or wrong, all of us Heretics try to gather somewhere for a celebratory or depressing round of drinks.

[nanother]

I think all Osha's saying is that Mance doesn't know what he's talking about. Yes, she emphasizes tht she was born there, seeming to contrst it with Mance, but from her POV it doesn't make a difference where he was born (possibly although unlikely she doesn't even know), as long as he didn't grow up as a wildling and doesn't know winter. We don't know how old he was when taken by the Watch, but if young enough then he wouldn't know much about the wildling lore and their traditions/way of life, in other words he doesn't know what he's up against.

[greygnarl]

This discussion of Mance brings up a potential big issue with Mance which might have a bigger thematic/story impact.

How much choice did Mance have about joining the Night's Watch? Since he was taken/rescued as a "child" and raised at the Shadow Tower, was he, in effect, forced to join the Night's Watch?

What I get from this statement by Osha is that White Walkers come every winter (if not that far south) and that Mance was probably at the Shadow Tower during whatever winters he's lived through, so he doesn't know how strong the White Walkers are.

Edit:Just read above post.

[Black Crow]

Its all a matter of perception. I did say earlier she could be wrong about him, but on the other hand lots of things about Mance don't quite add up.

Anyway with 397 posts down I think its time to call a wrap on this version of the thread and open Heresy 19.

In closing can I add my thanks to FanTasy's, I may be the arch-heretic but I'm not having a conversation with myself, its all of you out there who have contributed that make this thread what it is, and what a thread it is too, with so many revelations slipping out to feed us fresh ideas and form what really is firming up into a pretty good idea of what may be going on.

[nanother]

Re: Last hero and CotF

Seeing that he set out with the purpose of recruiting the Children's help against the Others, Bran's memory about the children helping him (and I'm pretty sure he said help, nt save) can easily include that. It'd make one silly story if they just saved him and said "Oh, and as far as the Others go, you're on your own, good luck"