Bael the Bard and R+L=J

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I wasn't sure if I should start this topic and risk looking like an idiot or not but I might as well.

The reason I could end up looking like an idiot is because this probably has come up before and everyone except me already knows about it.

Here goes. I think I found some foreshadowing for R+L=J while doing a reread of Clash when Ygritte tells the story of Bael the Bard. Lord Stark's daughter is kidnapped by a musician (Rhaegar) who leaves a blue winter rose (Lyanna) on her bed. Bael and the daughter hid in the crypts (Jon has some connection to the crypts it would seem) and when the daughter was found it is learned that she loved Bael enough to bear his son. This son later became a Lord Stark as his grandfather had no other heirs (Robb's apparent lack of suitable heirs and hid decision to name Jon his heir. Foreshadows Jon's future power?).

What do you guys think? Sorry if this is already well known.

[Belandra Waters]

I wasn't sure if I should start this topic and risk looking like an idiot or not but I might as well.

The reason I could end up looking like an idiot is because this probably has come up before and everyone except me already knows about it.

Here goes. I think I found some foreshadowing for R+L=J while doing a reread of Clash when Ygritte tells the story of Bael the Bard. Lord Stark's daughter is kidnapped by a musician (Rhaegar) who leaves a blue winter rose (Lyanna) on her bed. Bael and the daughter hid in the crypts (Jon has some connection to the crypts it would seem) and when the daughter was found it is learned that she loved Bael enough to bear his son. This son later became a Lord Stark as his grandfather had no other heirs (Robb's apparent lack of suitable heirs and hid decision to name Jon his heir. Foreshadows Jon's future power?).

What do you guys think? Sorry if this is already well known.

I like it! And no, you certainly are not an idiot!

I just hope the ending of the Bael story isn't foreshadowing anything more about the Starks!

[Liar]

What? :lol: no you're not an idiot! you worked this by yourself. I have seen it before, and it's good and solid.

[King Jonboy]

IDIOT!!!!!

Just kidding!! Good thought actually, GRRM deliberately does things like this, many old story's are reflecting in current times, but I never noticed this connection! Good one!

[Ragnorak]

As to the Jon's future part, here's something I posted in the Learning to Lead reread about how the Bael story plays into the Wildlings views of him.

I think Jon is the current King of the Wildlings and just doesn't know it yet.

The Free Folk and Northerners-- especially the Starks-- are one people in their eyes. They're also one people through all the Northern women taken on raids. There's the Umber daughter and the theory that Tormund is the father of some Mormonts.

When the Nights King rose it was the Stark in Winterfell and the King-Beyond-the-Wall that allied to take him down. The CotF used to bring obsidian to the Watch. At some point this unity was lost to those south of the Wall as the true purpose of their fight against the Others was lost.

Here is the Bael the Bard tale.

“Were they your kin?” he asked her quietly. “The two we killed?”

“No more than you are.”

“Me?” He frowned. “What do you mean?”

“You said you were the Bastard o’ Winterfell.”

“I am.”

“Who was your mother?”

“Some woman. Most of them are.” Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who.

She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. “And she never sung you the song o’ the winter rose?”

“I never knew my mother. Or any such song.”

“Bael the Bard made it,” said Ygritte. “He was King-beyond-the-Wall a long time back. All the free folk know his songs, but might be you don’t sing them in the south.”

“Winterfell’s not in the south,” Jon objected.

“Yes it is. Everything below the Wall’s south to us.”

He had never thought of it that way. “I suppose it’s all in where you’re standing.”

“Aye,” Ygritte agreed. “It always is.”

...

The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says… though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what’s certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael’s blood in you, same as me.”

“It never happened,” Jon said.

She shrugged. “Might be it did, might be it didn’t. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours.” She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. “The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford… and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword.”

“So the son slew the father instead,” said Jon.

“Aye,” she said, “but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael’s head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o’ his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak.”

“Your Bael was a liar,” he told her, certain now.

“No,” Ygritte said, “but a bard’s truth is different than yours or mine.

Aside from the Bard's truths of Jon's history-- Rhaegar was a bard and Lyanna loved him so dearly she bore him a son-- it shows that the Wildlings believe that they are kin with the Starks. Not just any Stark, but Jon is the Bastard of Winterfell. The Wildlings just found out that Jon didn't fight and kill Mance like in Bael's story but that the Bastard of Winterfell and "Bael" united to fight the Lord who is threatening to flay Mance and wear his skin like a cloak. Jon's request to go save Mance and Arya from the Boltons in Winterfell can't be any more compelling to the Free Folk. It is the fulfillment of every aspect of truth in Bael's story including reuniting them with their kin south of the Wall.

This, and every warrior in Tormund's service personally swore loyalty to Jon as they passed through the Wall.

[Empire]

Is there not something very intentional about the use of Bael and Baelish. Names seem too similar to be accidental and Littlefinger seems to be drawing inspiration from parts of the story.

I can't shake the suspicion that R+L=J is just too easy... But there is so much evidence.

[armidil0]

I also love how it references a Bolton rebellion.

It's so neat how much you can miss in these small stories.

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

if you read a bit further into that it references the stark suffering at the hands of boltons ... which is bad :P

however, this could be showing us the birth of the bolton house, wit jon destined to crush it once and for all :D

[Lady Lea]

And then there's the thing about the mother throwing herself from a tower in grief - could be tied to Ashara Dayne who is probably a red herring in the "who's Jon's mother" mystery

[Sevumar]

I think the story of Bael the Bard works as an illustration of several main stories in the series. There's some interesting imagery in the not-so-happy post song followup that Ygritte describes.

Another little neat tidbit is that the chapter where this is told immediately follows the Theon chapter about Bran's and Rickon's "deaths," revealing the answer to what must've happened to Bran and Rickon (hiding in the crypts).

If the story of Bael the Bard is true, the Starks have been extinct in the male line since this incident.

[dragontamer]

Is there not something very intentional about the use of Bael and Baelish. Names seem too similar to be accidental and Littlefinger seems to be drawing inspiration from parts of the story.

I can't shake the suspicion that R+L=J is just too easy... But there is so much evidence.

I like this very much :bowdown:

Robb is dead, Bran is likely a "tree" and even if he comes back he can never have children so all it's left from male Stark line is Rickon who even if he survives he is still very young to produce heirs. So actually only Jon is left to continue the Stark line. It would be a great twist to be the son of Petyr and Lyanna, Petyr taking revenge on Brandon and through him to all Stark family for loosing his love to them.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

It would be a great twist to be the son of Petyr and Lyanna, Petyr taking revenge on Brandon and through him to all Stark family for loosing his love to them.

That would make me puke all over my book.

[Mikkel]

It would be a great twist to be the son of Petyr and Lyanna, Petyr taking revenge on Brandon and through him to all Stark family for loosing his love to them.

That just makes no sense, there's no indication of Lyanna and Petyr even meeting is there? They were probably at some tourney or other at the same time, but so were hundreds if not thousands of other people.

[dragontamer]

That just makes no sense, there's no indication of Lyanna and Petyr even meeting is there? They were probably at some tourney or other at the same time, but so were hundreds if not thousands of other people.

Because there is no indication doesn't mean that it can't be true. Lyanna is dead and we have on POV chapter of LF so who can be certain?

[Mikkel]

Because there is no indication doesn't mean that it can't be true. Lyanna is dead and we have on POV chapter of LF so who can be certain?

Of course we can't be sure, but then we can't be sure of very many things in this series, I'm just saying it seems unlikely in the extreme, considering the personalities of the people involved and the apparent fact that they never even spoke.

[Alta1r]

That would make me puke all over my book.

Amen. That would be a disgusting twist.

[Lord Davos Seaworth]

Abel=Anagram of Bael=Mance... Hmmm,

[Empire]

I don't think Baelish is involved at all in the Lyanna story. I have a feeling there is something a good less less romantic than R+J.

However... Baelish is playing the role off trickster, bent on revenge, and fixated on stark's eldest girl. He is behaving very Bael-ish.

[FloZone]

But Beal hid in the crypts all the time? Could it be, that Lyanna and Rhaegar are still alive and Neds promise was to make everyone believe they are dead.

[Empire]

It could be, but I don't think it's likely.

Lyanna is clearly dead and, barring magic, I don't see how Rhaegar isn't dead too.

My opinion is that the "hiding in the crypts" metaphor refers to a living character trying to usurp the Stark line. Baelish comes to mind, but it is not a 1:1 comparison.