From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XII

[brashcandy]

Exact quote: "I think Lemoncake fans will have some enjoyment from a chapter we read."

Now granted, "some enjoyment" could mean a lot of things. For example, I would have some enjoyment if Sansa had more dreams about Sandor ;) and/or if we saw her developing a closer relationship to Mya Stone. But I'm hedging my bets that Ran is referring to something very definite and concrete, which should mean - as we've suspected all along - that Martin is writing some kind of a game changer for that opening chapter.

[Queen Cersei I]

The only thing that can legitimately make Sansa fans happy is if she somehow manages to escape/defeat Littlefinger, and all that entails (no HtH marriage, saving SR). This of course would validate our central ideas about her arc and her path towards agency.

Perhaps they simply meant we'd be happy to hear from her?

As for Sansa, I can't see her defeating Littlefinger until the end of her story.

Anyway... I personally suspect Sansa will marry Harry the Heir in the next book, who will, in what seems to be the grand tradition of handsome, popular, flirtatious, guys with many lovers in all of these books, turn out to be a major, grade a douche bag who cheats on Sansa himself.

When GRRM had LF say, (of Harry) "I'm sure he's very beguiling," I felt as though the envy and bitterness (and not just on LF's part, mind you) practically dripped off the page.

[brashcandy]

Perhaps they simply meant we'd be happy to hear from her?

Would make no sense, considering we've always expected to hear from her.

As for Sansa, I can't see her defeating Sansa until the end of her story.

When I say escape/defeat LF, I don't mean something as definitive as kill him or even expose him to the Bronze Yohn. I'm talking about finding a way to thwart his plans and his control over her.

Anyway... I personally suspect Sansa will marry Harry the Heir in the next book, who will, in what seems to be the grand tradition of handsome, popular, flirtatious, guys with many lovers in all of these books, turn out to be a major, grade a douche bag who cheats on Sansa himself.

When GRRM had LF say, (of Harry) "I'm sure he's very beguiling," I felt as though the envy and bitterness (and not just on LF's part, mind you) practically dripped off the page.

You have to admit, GRRM has already set us up for Harry being a douche :) But I definitely don't think any marriage will be happening between him and Sansa.

[Caro99]

Oh Brash that was wondeful!! aww it just raises so many more theories!! but i will dare trust that i will indeed be happy with what happens in that chapter... oh and i agree that i don't think sansa will marry harry. sure, LF wants her for himself in the end even if she had to marry tyrion and harry first, but since tyrion is far away and any trick/solution LF has under his sleeve to annul the sansa/tyrion marriage would take some chapters in Winter at least, i don't think the marriage will end up happening.. Oh and i second your notion of having her dreaming more about Sandor being something that could make me happy X)

[brashcandy]

@Caro,

It helps to set the mind (relatively) at ease, doesn't it? Of course it doesn't mean that everything is going to be hunky dory for Sansa, and that all her problems have magically disappeared, but I do think this indicates an important change in circumstances for her, whether it is in her thinking, or a more material development. Has she started to warg perhaps? I think the likeliest possibility is that some important shift has occurred, which will bring about a new progression in Sansa's story.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I don't think Sansa will marry Harry; partly because LF doesn't really want her to in the first place. Whenever LF opens his mouth lies and BS come out. I think it's a big mistake to take LF's stated plans at their face value. Besides, there is the little matter of her marriage to Tyrion to somehow invalidate. And for all we know, Sansa wants to stay "married' to Tyrion for now in order to be free of other unwanted marriages.

I think she is going to somehow start freeing herself, or taking the steps to free herself, from LF. And there is the matter of the Quiet Isle being on the Vale/Riverlands route. :) I think she will at least dream of Sandor again.

[brashcandy]

And if GRRM is giving a preview of this chapter, perhaps we can keep our fingers crossed that it will eventually be one of the spoiler chapters we get to preview before the official publication. A small hope, but a hope nonetheless :)

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

KRBD, great SR post.

As far as the podcast: They could be having fun. As in, we get to watch X character eat some awesome lemoncakes.

((Though, I hope it's something more of Sansa starting with a plan to take down Littlefinger/save SR.))

[Valkyrja]

KRBD, great SR post.

As far as the podcast: They could be having fun. As in, we get to watch X character eat some awesome lemoncakes.

((Though, I hope it's something more of Sansa starting with a plan to take down Littlefinger/save SR.))

Bronn, I was just about to say the same thing: watch it just be someone in the chapter eating lemoncakes. :P

P.S. Also, how do we know that the sorts of things we value about Sansa's arc are what the podcasters value? Maybe they think its badass that Sansa marries HtH, or something way worse.... :S

[Lyanna Stark]

Bronn, I was just about to say the same thing: watch it just be someone in the chapter eating lemoncakes. :P

P.S. Also, how do we know that the sorts of things we value about Sansa's arc are what the podcasters value? Maybe they think its badass that Sansa marries HtH, or something way worse.... :S

Linda's and Ran's podcasts are great. I find them quite soothing to listen to. :lol:

I wouldn't worry too much about there being a general view that it would be badass for Sansa to marry HtH, more like a keen interest in her storyline since it's really quite open ended by the end of AFFC.

[bgona]

Maybe it is just the Sansa POV that was take out of ADWD

[Kittykatknits]

I've enjoyed everything that I've heard/read from Ran so far and if he said this in a podcast then I think we can safely assume it will be a development we would want to see with Sansa. My observations so far with Ran is that he has some great insights in to the characters and treats fans pretty respectfully when it comes to their favorites and whatnot. His comments regarding SanSan during season two were particularly nice to see and I've seen him come to the defense of less popular characters more than once. If he said this, we are not going to see Sansa marrying HtH or turn in to more of a broken down victim or decide to go along with LF's plans or whatever else people regularly say.

Martin said he pushed back one of her chapter to Winds and then he left her last one in Feast on a very deliberate cliffhanger. Some have assumed that she will marry Harry and this will be the best thing ever. But, her thoughts on marriage and her physical reaction made her thoughts pretty clear I think. The turnaround that we all have guessing will begin. The specifics on what this will be though, I have no clue.

[brashcandy]

Martin said he pushed back one of her chapter to Winds and then he left her last one in Feast on a very deliberate cliffhanger. Some have assumed that she will marry Harry and this will be the best thing ever. But, her thoughts on marriage and her physical reaction made her thoughts pretty clear I think. The turnaround that we all have guessing will begin. The specifics on what this will be though, I have no clue.

I think that for so long, Sansa has only been appreciated as an object of others' affection, so it's hard for some to imagine what happiness or agency looks like for her not tied to another marriage arrangement. So if it's not Harry, then people assume it'll be Aegon. What is there about marriage to a prince that should inherently make Sansa happy? If there's one thing this series has taught us is to look beyond the status and the position and to really analyse personalities and qualities. As pleased as I am to maybe have some confirmation that we'll have "some enjoyment" from this chapter, I must say it's not that surprising given our feelings about where Sansa is headed at this point.

[saryan]

Did you all know there is a new Beauty and the Beast TV series, premiering in the next week or two? I saw an advert on the subway (I'm in the US):

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2193041/

I don't have particularly high hopes for it based on the dreamboaty-ness of what I can only assume is the "Beast" from this picture, but perhaps they will work that out somehow. Anyway, it struck me as a funny coincidence given what has been discussed here lately :) . (Sorry if someone has already mentioned this).

[Ragnorak]

Exact quote: "I think Lemoncake fans will have some enjoyment from a chapter we read."

Now granted, "some enjoyment" could mean a lot of things. For example, I would have some enjoyment if Sansa had more dreams about Sandor ;) and/or if we saw her developing a closer relationship to Mya Stone. But I'm hedging my bets that Ran is referring to something very definite and concrete, which should mean - as we've suspected all along - that Martin is writing some kind of a game changer for that opening chapter.

I haven't listened to the podcast but that quote strikes me as deliberately vague to avoid the sin of spoilers. I don't think we can read anything into the enjoyment aspect other than the lack of a negative. If I were to be commenting on the chapter with Manderly's "the North Remembers" speech before the release of DwD I would describe it as having some enjoyment as well. I would probably characterize Arya's Braavos chapters in a similar way. I suspect Ran would be respectfully reluctant to mislead expectations or even express a degree of enthusiasm that could be mistaken for gloating or teasing.

I think Lemoncake offers far more opportunity for wild and reckless one word speculation-- a fairly obvious Sansa reference but technically not even a character name spoiler. He could have just said "Sansa fans." So why lemoncake specifically? Is it just a turn of phrase Ran commonly uses for Sansa fans or was there something specific in what he read that triggered a lemon cake association? Lemon cakes harken back to Sansa's happiness and innocent youth. I don't think Sansa ever ate lemon cakes alone, but IIRC she did mischievously steal some from the kitchens and eat them gossiping with Jeyne. Might she actually have shared lemon cakes with people in this chapter? Arya loves lemon cakes too though I can't imagine anything developing on that front so soon. If it does mean anything I suspect Sansa has engaged the women around her and we'll get our first look at Sansa the Player in a way that is very true to the nature of Sansa Stark, lover of lemon cakes.

[Valkyrja]

Did you all know there is a new Beauty and the Beast TV series, premiering in the next week or two? I saw an advert on the subway (I'm in the US):

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2193041/

I don't have particularly high hopes for it based on the dreamboaty-ness of what I can only assume is the "Beast" from this picture, but perhaps they will work that out somehow. Anyway, it struck me as a funny coincidence given what has been discussed here lately :) . (Sorry if someone has already mentioned this).

Thanks for pointing this out. :) I did actually know about it, but yeah.....my hopes weren't all that high due to, as you say, the "dreamboaty-ness" of the male lead. (Definitely not my idea of a dreamboat, I'm more about the scarred manly types myself :lol: )

[saryan]

(Definitely not my idea of a dreamboat

Oh not my idea either... :lol: But there is no mistaking their intent with the sharpness of his cheekbones and his strong jawline...LOL.

But he does have a scar!! I guess that is what qualifies him as a Beast....

[Kittykatknits]

I think that for so long, Sansa has only been appreciated as an object of others' affection, so it's hard for some to imagine what happiness or agency looks like for her not tied to another marriage arrangement. So if it's not Harry, then people assume it'll be Aegon. What is there about marriage to a prince that should inherently make Sansa happy? If there's one thing this series has taught us is to look beyond the status and the position and to really analyse personalities and qualities. As pleased as I am to maybe have some confirmation that we'll have "some enjoyment" from this chapter, I must say it's not that surprising given our feelings about where Sansa is headed at this point.

I'm not at all surprised either, although I enjoy the validation of our analysis. :)

It's making me think of Sansa detractors (or worse - those who say they are fans) who dismiss her as a damsel in distress who is unable to do anything for herself or is merely the ordinary girl next door who primarily serves as a green screen for readers. I think those theories are going to be proven wrong.

[brashcandy]

I think Lemoncake offers far more opportunity for wild and reckless one word speculation-- a fairly obvious Sansa reference but technically not even a character name spoiler. He could have just said "Sansa fans." So why lemoncake specifically? Is it just a turn of phrase Ran commonly uses for Sansa fans or was there something specific in what he read that triggered a lemon cake association? Lemon cakes harken back to Sansa's happiness and innocent youth. I don't think Sansa ever ate lemon cakes alone, but IIRC she did mischievously steal some from the kitchens and eat them gossiping with Jeyne. Might she actually have shared lemon cakes with people in this chapter? Arya loves lemon cakes too though I can't imagine anything developing on that front so soon. If it does mean anything I suspect Sansa has engaged the women around her and we'll get our first look at Sansa the Player in a way that is very true to the nature of Sansa Stark, lover of lemon cakes.

I agree that he was being necessarily cautious for many reasons :) With regard to lemoncakes, at the end of AFFC, Sansa had promised Sweetrobin this very treat, so perhaps it's signalling that she's made the decision to protect him? Either way, I do agree that Sansa the player has emerged.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Did you all know there is a new Beauty and the Beast TV series, premiering in the next week or two? I saw an advert on the subway (I'm in the US):

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2193041/

I don't have particularly high hopes for it based on the dreamboaty-ness of what I can only assume is the "Beast" from this picture, but perhaps they will work that out somehow. Anyway, it struck me as a funny coincidence given what has been discussed here lately :) . (Sorry if someone has already mentioned this).

If it makes you feel better, my mom and sister told me they think he is supposed to have a monster form. I don't know if this is because they heard something or that is the only reason they can think of why he would be the "beast."

If not true, I find it highly a offensive. He has a scar. If Hollywood thinks every man with a scar on his face must live in the sewers, well I got two words for Hollywood.

Thanks for pointing this out. :) I did actually know about it, but yeah.....my hopes weren't all that high due to, as you say, the "dreamboaty-ness" of the male lead. (Definitely not my idea of a dreamboat, I'm more about the scarred manly types myself :lol: )

Scars are known to increase attractiveness (or at least they don't decrease it). Basically, our brains pick up that, "Hey, this person survived. Must make damn tough kids. Alright, I'm in." Though it does decrease value when long term relationships are looked at.

Fun fact: Applies equally to men and women.