From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XII

[wonder1859]

Of course, they are supposed to. Hollywood says so. Just like having a scar is now a reason for someone to abandon their life and live in the tunnel. Fuck you Hollywood. Fuck you.

Actually the new Vincent doesn't live in the tunnels under NYC.He lives in a loft with his buddy and they pass the time drinking beer and playing Wii.

I know y'all can't see me, but my eyes have damned near rolled out of my head.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

First of all, I agree with Lady Lea and Lord Bronn about Kristin Kreuk. Can't they find a pretty woman who can actually act? A dead fish can act better than Kristin Kreuk. Maybe she can be paired with Robert Pattinson for double the crappy acting?

The Twilight trend strikes again. Don't they understand that it's hotter when he's not a pretty boy?? Even as a child I was way more attracted to the Disney Beast than the prince he turns into at the end. Goddammit!!!!

I agree with you about pretty boys. Maybe it's because I was a teenager in the late 70's and went through bodice ripper romances like crack, but I've imprinted on the rugged/slightly flawed types. I don't care to look at guys who are prettier than I am! And who look like they're going to be borrowing my makeup or something!

I don't like the more rapey bits in the old-school romance novels but I tend to like the heros and heroines, plot, research (like Roberta Gellis and Bertrice Small putting so much research and history into their romances), epic sweepingness - I'm glad so many are being reissued for Kindle even with derpy redesigned covers.

Well, in the books Edward is supposed to look hot ("like a marble Adonis"), but in the film they cast Robert Pattinson, who, honestly, looks like a foot, and only has one expression: constipated.

Blech, Robert Pattinson. He is so not attractive to me. He also looks extremely unwashed. I feel like I can smell him with my eyes or something. I never got the appeal of Edward (I was always Team Jacob if anything).

There is a French term that describes this quite well, but I'm to lazy to do the needed googling. But, the idea is that a flaw or physical imperfection adds to and makes a person beautiful, rather than someone managing to be beautiful/handsome despite the flaws.

It applies to Sandor Clegane, still attractive to many despite half his face being burned off. Or, that many woman find Jaime attracted once he loses a hand and looks aged after spending so long as a prisoner. Men with scars, crooked noses from being broken, or weather-beaten looks can all be considered very sexy, even though they are not traditionally handsome or pretty.

Sadly for poor Jorah, back hair is not attractive under any definition.

Poor Jorah! Back hair is gross, and even grosser when it's sweaty and most of Essos got really hot. :wacko: Perhaps the back hair evolved among male Mormonts because Bear Island was so cold?

There's also the fact that Jorah might well be seeing Dany as a replacement Lynesse or even just have a jones for petite platinum blondes and anyone with that description will do. Just like with Sansa, I want to see Dany appreciated for herself, even if that is less likely because she is the Dragon Queen and most people are just going to see that.

One reason I ship SanSan is that Sandor seems to be one of the only men who have feelings for Sansa who want her for herself, not her claim or her resemblance to Catelyn or a trophy. However, my ultimate canon ship is Sansa/Happiness, however that comes about. (And I do believe that HtH is hardly the person to offer that. I want to keep jumping up and down and shouting "SEVENTEEN YEARS OLD AND ALREADY TWO BASTARD CHILDREN! Even Robert had only one at that age!")

I'll be back with more later on lemoncakes and Ser Sweetrobin. I also noticed the Re-Thinking Jaime thread and am going to jump in when I can!

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Actually the new Vincent doesn't live in the tunnels under NYC.He lives in a loft with his buddy and they pass the time drinking beer and playing Wii.

I know y'all can't see me, but my eyes have damned near rolled out of my head.

Sad thing is, I don't know if this a joke or not.

1. First of all, I agree with Lady Lea and Lord Bronn about Kristin Kreuk. Can't they find a pretty woman who can actually act? A dead fish can act better than Kristin Kreuk. Maybe she can be paired with Robert Pattinson for double the crappy acting?

2. Blech, Robert Pattinson. He is so not attractive to me. He also looks extremely unwashed. I feel like I can smell him with my eyes or something. I never got the appeal of Edward (I was always Team Jacob if anything).

Poor Jorah! 3. Back hair is gross, and even grosser when it's sweaty and most of Essos got really hot. :wacko: Perhaps the back hair evolved among male Mormonts because Bear Island was so cold?

There's also the fact that Jorah might well be seeing Dany as a replacement Lynesse or even just have a jones for petite platinum blondes and anyone with that description will do. Just like with Sansa, I want to see Dany appreciated for herself, even if that is less likely because she is the Dragon Queen and most people are just going to see that.

One reason I ship SanSan is that Sandor seems to be one of the only men who have feelings for Sansa who want her for herself, not her claim or her resemblance to Catelyn or a trophy. However, my ultimate canon ship is Sansa/Happiness, however that comes about. (And I do believe that HtH is hardly the person to offer that. I want to keep jumping up and down and shouting "SEVENTEEN YEARS OLD AND ALREADY TWO BASTARD CHILDREN! Even Robert had only one at that age!")

I'll be back with more later on lemoncakes and Ser Sweetrobin. I also noticed the Re-Thinking Jaime thread and am going to jump in when I can!

1. Of course. But it's not about acting ability, it's about who you bl...know.

2. I never heard of Twighlight before my sister asked me if I could stand in line for her at the midnight release of the last book. Having nothing better to do, on that side of town, and promised some sort of reward (a Starbucks coffee or food or something) when she got there, I agreed. I happened to be wearing a wolf shirt. And my name is Jacob. So, when asked, yes, I was Team Jacob. Then, I realized I was the only male in a room full of teen girls, pre-teen girls, and their mothers (thus being older than most and no children to hide behind). Which I naturally tried to make sure those around me knew I was there for my sister. Which just made it worse (until she actually showed up at which point I got the hell out for there).

3. Hairiness on men is a sign of virility and male sexual prowess. :commie: Right?

[brashcandy]

As this analysis is very near and dear to my own research interests, I thought I'd post it here. It's by lyrabelacqua on tumblr:

In addition to all the other ways in which Sansa and Sandor’s interactions are just, like, PERFECT to me, I think they make for a pretty amazing site for discussion of the male gaze. When we watch a movie or read a book, we are encouraged to identify with the protagonist, to see what they see and feel what they feel. In film, especially, the camera mimics the processes of our eye as it travels over that which we view. Historically, the active viewer is associated with the masculine, while the passive, looked-upon object is termed feminine. Women’s bodies—in film, art, advertising—are simplified, objectified, and reduced to parts for the visual consumption of the male spectator. Women, of course, are also consumers of media, so the discussion gets a lot more interesting when the roles are reversed…

In the case of Sansa and Sandor, the male gaze is really intriguing to me for a couple of reasons. Firstly, we as the reader primarily “view” Sandor through Sansa’s eyes. In writing from multiple character perspectives throughout the series, GRRM implies that there is no single narrative “truth” to this story. Sandor appears in other characters’ perspective chapters before and after he comes into contact with Sansa, but it is in Sansa’s chapters (and later, arguably, Arya’s) that we really get to know him. So their relationship is already slightly off-kilter in terms of traditional narrative presentation because Sansa is our primary subject.

Sandor and Sansa are both deconstructions of archetypes associated with chivalry, the knight and the maiden, each of which is sort of the ultimate in aspirational gender roles. Both Sansa and Sandor treat gender performatively. While Sansa is less conscious of this—she genuinely believes in the promised chivalry of the songs, and becomes disillusioned as she spends more time at court—Sandor is all too aware of the violent realities of the world they inhabit. His response is to retreat into the ultra-masculine Hound persona. While Sansa conflates masculinity with chivalry, the split in Sandor’s behavior is just one of many examples GRRM gives us of appearance not meeting reality in courtly life (see also: Loras). Ironically, Sandor is at his most “chivalrous” when he is alone with Sansa—although not when he’s holding a knife to her throat, obviously. And he is conspicuously unchivalrous when he is at court, the site where we might expect the most in chivalrous performance from our characters.

But back to looking! In nearly all her crossings with Sandor, Sansa’s internal monologue refers to his fearsome face or eyes. A pattern emerges: she averts her eyes, and he demands that she look him in the face. The night of the Blackwater alone, he asks her to look at him twice (“Everything scares you. Look at me. Look at me” and “Still can’t bear to look, can you?”). Sandor wants to be looked at, and specifically by Sansa, because she is the embodiment of all the chivalrous ideals he claims are bullshit. Being looked at—and willingly—by Sansa Stark is confirmation of the sort of “true knighthood” that Sandor denies in himself. But that’s not all. The gaze itself implies an imbalance of power: the viewer is active, the object passive. Sandor wants Sansa to be that active agent, not only when she looks at him, but when she looks at everything that surrounds her. He wants her to see the truth beyond the chivalrous falsities that surround her, but more than that he also wants to be passive lookee to her desirous look! He wants her to WANT to look at him. And in a society where women’s desires are secondary to men’s—if considered at all—how special is that?

[Caro99]

As this analysis is very near and dear to my own research interests, I thought I'd post it here. It's by lyrabelacqua on tumblr:

In addition to all the other ways in which Sansa and Sandor’s interactions are just, like, PERFECT to me, I think they make for a pretty amazing site for discussion of the male gaze. When we watch a movie or read a book, we are encouraged to identify with the protagonist, to see what they see and feel what they feel. In film, especially, the camera mimics the processes of our eye as it travels over that which we view. Historically, the active viewer is associated with the masculine, while the passive, looked-upon object is termed feminine. Women’s bodies—in film, art, advertising—are simplified, objectified, and reduced to parts for the visual consumption of the male spectator. Women, of course, are also consumers of media, so the discussion gets a lot more interesting when the roles are reversed…

In the case of Sansa and Sandor, the male gaze is really intriguing to me for a couple of reasons. Firstly, we as the reader primarily “view” Sandor through Sansa’s eyes. In writing from multiple character perspectives throughout the series, GRRM implies that there is no single narrative “truth” to this story. Sandor appears in other characters’ perspective chapters before and after he comes into contact with Sansa, but it is in Sansa’s chapters (and later, arguably, Arya’s) that we really get to know him. So their relationship is already slightly off-kilter in terms of traditional narrative presentation because Sansa is our primary subject.

Sandor and Sansa are both deconstructions of archetypes associated with chivalry, the knight and the maiden, each of which is sort of the ultimate in aspirational gender roles. Both Sansa and Sandor treat gender performatively. While Sansa is less conscious of this—she genuinely believes in the promised chivalry of the songs, and becomes disillusioned as she spends more time at court—Sandor is all too aware of the violent realities of the world they inhabit. His response is to retreat into the ultra-masculine Hound persona. While Sansa conflates masculinity with chivalry, the split in Sandor’s behavior is just one of many examples GRRM gives us of appearance not meeting reality in courtly life (see also: Loras). Ironically, Sandor is at his most “chivalrous” when he is alone with Sansa—although not when he’s holding a knife to her throat, obviously. And he is conspicuously unchivalrous when he is at court, the site where we might expect the most in chivalrous performance from our characters.

But back to looking! In nearly all her crossings with Sandor, Sansa’s internal monologue refers to his fearsome face or eyes. A pattern emerges: she averts her eyes, and he demands that she look him in the face. The night of the Blackwater alone, he asks her to look at him twice (“Everything scares you. Look at me. Look at me” and “Still can’t bear to look, can you?”). Sandor wants to be looked at, and specifically by Sansa, because she is the embodiment of all the chivalrous ideals he claims are bullshit. Being looked at—and willingly—by Sansa Stark is confirmation of the sort of “true knighthood” that Sandor denies in himself. But that’s not all. The gaze itself implies an imbalance of power: the viewer is active, the object passive. Sandor wants Sansa to be that active agent, not only when she looks at him, but when she looks at everything that surrounds her. He wants her to see the truth beyond the chivalrous falsities that surround her, but more than that he also wants to be passive lookee to her desirous look! He wants her to WANT to look at him. And in a society where women’s desires are secondary to men’s—if considered at all—how special is that?

Just :bowdown: This gave me sooo many feelings! and while i like it because it talks about how sandor wants sansa to see him involving emotional stuff and so on, i just loved it because once again it shows that Sandor wouldn't be so bad a choice for Sansa since he is already since the very start thrusting the power at her, or like it says above, "an imabalance of power" & "he wants her to be the active agent."

i want this to be a relationship of equals, but besides helping or advising sansa, i can't see him freaking out at her if she doesn't listen to him. and if she were to become queen/lady of winterfell/regent, i believe he would not feel threatened by the political power she would. or again, like it says above, "Sansa, the viewer would be the active one, while Sandor would be ok with being the passive one..."

[Kittykatknits]

3. Hairiness on men is a sign of virility and male sexual prowess. :commie: Right?

Everywhere but the back, Lord Bronn. I like hair on men everywhere else. ;)

But back to looking! In nearly all her crossings with Sandor, Sansa’s internal monologue refers to his fearsome face or eyes. A pattern emerges: she averts her eyes, and he demands that she look him in the face. The night of the Blackwater alone, he asks her to look at him twice (“Everything scares you. Look at me. Look at me” and “Still can’t bear to look, can you?”). Sandor wants to be looked at, and specifically by Sansa, because she is the embodiment of all the chivalrous ideals he claims are bullshit. Being looked at—and willingly—by Sansa Stark is confirmation of the sort of “true knighthood” that Sandor denies in himself. But that’s not all. The gaze itself implies an imbalance of power: the viewer is active, the object passive. Sandor wants Sansa to be that active agent, not only when she looks at him, but when she looks at everything that surrounds her. He wants her to see the truth beyond the chivalrous falsities that surround her, but more than that he also wants to be passive lookee to her desirous look! He wants her to WANT to look at him. And in a society where women’s desires are secondary to men’s—if considered at all—how special is that?

This is great!! Most of what we see with pop culture focus on the male gaze, the camera slowly moving up a woman's body, with convenient lingering pauses. WK brought in an article to this thread a while ago about the movie Thor which actually made extensive use of the female gaze. The surprise was not so much that it was used, but that it was used in a genre movie such as this one that is normally marketed towards a male audience.

Anyways, this exchange with Sandor reminded me of another one that takes place later in the series. Sandor is places value on the female gaze, he wants her to look and see. Of course, I am contrasting this with Tyrion who flat out denies the worth of the female gaze to Sansa when he tells her that he can be the Knight of Flowers in the dark. It's a denial of the idea that Sansa's viewpoint and what she sees holds value. He wants her in the dark. Sansa, of course, is smart enough to realize this as we later see her reject this statement and call him a liar. She's has figured out for herself to place value on the female gaze, perhaps some of that is a lingering lesson from Sandor?

[Lady Lea]

2. I never heard of Twighlight before my sister asked me if I could stand in line for her at the midnight release of the last book. Having nothing better to do, on that side of town, and promised some sort of reward (a Starbucks coffee or food or something) when she got there, I agreed. I happened to be wearing a wolf shirt. And my name is Jacob. So, when asked, yes, I was Team Jacob. Then, I realized I was the only male in a room full of teen girls, pre-teen girls, and their mothers (thus being older than most and no children to hide behind). Which I naturally tried to make sure those around me knew I was there for my sister. Which just made it worse (until she actually showed up at which point I got the hell out for there).

Aw man, best story I've heard all day. I'd say those kinds of things are great for meeting women but of course

.

(and I totally was Team Jacob until he got weird and passive aggressive and became a pedo)

But back to looking! In nearly all her crossings with Sandor, Sansa’s internal monologue refers to his fearsome face or eyes. A pattern emerges: she averts her eyes, and he demands that she look him in the face. The night of the Blackwater alone, he asks her to look at him twice (“Everything scares you. Look at me. Look at me” and “Still can’t bear to look, can you?”). Sandor wants to be looked at, and specifically by Sansa, because she is the embodiment of all the chivalrous ideals he claims are bullshit. Being looked at—and willingly—by Sansa Stark is confirmation of the sort of “true knighthood” that Sandor denies in himself. But that’s not all. The gaze itself implies an imbalance of power: the viewer is active, the object passive. Sandor wants Sansa to be that active agent, not only when she looks at him, but when she looks at everything that surrounds her. He wants her to see the truth beyond the chivalrous falsities that surround her, but more than that he also wants to be passive lookee to her desirous look! He wants her to WANT to look at him. And in a society where women’s desires are secondary to men’s—if considered at all—how special is that?

Hm, this is very interesting. I'd also say that it's important that he actually cares whether she looks at him or not, and he takes her not-looking as a denial of consent (at the Blackwater night). In contrast, Tyrion doesn't care at all that she doesn't like to look at him, or even that she cries at her wedding, a much more overt sign of denial of consent.

[total1402]

Is it really a good thing that Sansa is losing her innocence and becoming a player? I was re-reading CoK and it seemed to stress that Sansa might go down a similar road as Cersei did. Becoming embittered at her own sense of weakness and powerlessness and develop this self-loathing for her own sex. The way Cersei seemed to be giving her "life tips" during the siege. I mean, the song she sung for the ound seemed to suggest that she wasn't embittered and as cynical as Cersei "find another way" or something like that. But, is she a ginger Cersei if she becomes a player in the Game of Thrones?

[bgona]

At least, so far we know that Sansa differs Cersei that she has learnt loyalty wins by heart and not by fear and she haven´t kill a friend so far.

She is learning not to use her body as a weapon (at least, not her only main weapon).

[brashcandy]

She's has figured out for herself to place value on the female gaze, perhaps some of that is a lingering lesson from Sandor?

I think so. This is what I noted to lyrabelacqua:

...for someone who’s often derided as weak and passive, Sansa is exceptionally “active” when it comes to the gaze and applying it towards her own desires and decision making. My favourite illustration of this is her wedding night to Tyrion, when she finally opens her eyes, takes a good, long look at him, and decides, you know what, thanks, but no thanks.

In assuming the gaze and deploying it in the service of her desires, Sansa assumes the power and authority that is often denied to women. And I do think Martin wants us to focus on the mechanics of looking in Sansa's arc. After Joffrey orders Ned's execution, she thinks of finally seeing him, and noticing his wormy lips. We have her unable to take her eyes off Loras at the tourney, and of course there's the infamous bedroom scene with Tyrion, and all the dymanics that play out with Sandor. I wonder how this is going to be developed in TWOW?

[Lady Lea]

Is it really a good thing that Sansa is losing her innocence and becoming a player? I was re-reading CoK and it seemed to stress that Sansa might go down a similar road as Cersei did. Becoming embittered at her own sense of weakness and powerlessness and develop this self-loathing for her own sex. The way Cersei seemed to be giving her "life tips" during the siege. I mean, the song she sung for the ound seemed to suggest that she wasn't embittered and as cynical as Cersei "find another way" or something like that. But, is she a ginger Cersei if she becomes a player in the Game of Thrones?

I think ACOK makes it clear that while Sansa and Cersei definitely have parallels in their arcs, they will tackle the hardships in their lives in very different ways. When Cersei talked about being feared, Sansa thought with conviction that if she is ever queen, she would make her subjects love her.

I don't see any signs of Sansa becoming embittered, unless you count her decision that she does not want to have an arranged marriage again, which I find quite salutary. She is definitely one character I don't think will ever develop a loathing for her own sex because Sansa is the one female character who has consistently demonstrated solidarity (or "sisterhood") for different women, with nothing in it for her (Jeyne, Lollys and Margaery come to mind at the moment). The thing is, while Cersei has a tremendous lack of empathy, Sansa is definitely one of the most empathetic characters in the series, even genuinely trying to help, be pleasant to or understand the people who have wronged her (Lancel, Tyrion, etc).

In conclusion, I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest that Sansa could become like Cersei in the future, in fact, quite the opposite.

[Valkyrja]

Is it really a good thing that Sansa is losing her innocence and becoming a player? I was re-reading CoK and it seemed to stress that Sansa might go down a similar road as Cersei did. Becoming embittered at her own sense of weakness and powerlessness and develop this self-loathing for her own sex. The way Cersei seemed to be giving her "life tips" during the siege. I mean, the song she sung for the ound seemed to suggest that she wasn't embittered and as cynical as Cersei "find another way" or something like that. But, is she a ginger Cersei if she becomes a player in the Game of Thrones?

total1402, while I understand your concerns, even if you are just looking at ACoK there is plenty of evidence or at least symbolism that shows that this is not the case. Take a look at my analysis of Sansa's association with the figure of the Mother from that very chapter, which shows quite clearly a contrast between Sansa and Cersei:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70772-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-viii/page__st__140#entry3430326

[total1402]

I think ACOK makes it clear that while Sansa and Cersei definitely have parallels in their arcs, they will tackle the hardships in their lives in very different ways. When Cersei talked about being feared, Sansa thought with conviction that if she is ever queen, she would make her subjects love her.

I don't see any signs of Sansa becoming embittered, unless you count her decision that she does not want to have an arranged marriage again, which I find quite salutary. She is definitely one character I don't think will ever develop a loathing for her own sex because Sansa is the one female character who has consistently demonstrated solidarity (or "sisterhood") for different women, with nothing in it for her (Jeyne, Lollys and Margaery come to mind at the moment). The thing is, while Cersei has a tremendous lack of empathy, Sansa is definitely one of the most empathetic characters in the series, even genuinely trying to help, be pleasant to or understand the people who have wronged her (Lancel, Tyrion, etc).

In conclusion, I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest that Sansa could become like Cersei in the future, in fact, quite the opposite.

I was chiefly thinking of her thinking about how she hates all Knights and that the Hound was right; seeming to slightly move her closer to his cynical view of the world. But I think you're right. Sansa seems to have a different way and shes probably least likely to have a dark turn like Arya might; for the reasons you gave.

[Milady of York]

There is a French term that describes this quite well, but I'm to lazy to do the needed googling. But, the idea is that a flaw or physical imperfection adds to and makes a person beautiful, rather than someone managing to be beautiful/handsome despite the flaws.

"Joli-laid" and "Jolie-laide" are the words you are trying to remember, I presume? It's a beautiful concept the French have managed to convey in a single word, however a hyphenated one. It has more to do with attitude than having classically beautiful physical features, and it outlines an idea that was already prominent in Classical Antiquity: some features that aren't exactly Adonis-like add character to a person's looks, but you have to be comfortable with them, as is evident if you look at not exactly pretty people who are perceived as sexy and handsome by others. I think director George Cukor said it best when giving advice to a youthful Sophia Loren: "A beautiful woman lacking in self-confidence is less attractive than a confident ugly woman."

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Just :bowdown: This gave me sooo many feelings! and while i like it because it talks about how sandor wants sansa to see him involving emotional stuff and so on, i just loved it because once again it shows that Sandor wouldn't be so bad a choice for Sansa since he is already since the very start thrusting the power at her, or like it says above, "an imabalance of power" & "he wants her to be the active agent."

i want this to be a relationship of equals, but besides helping or advising sansa, i can't see him freaking out at her if she doesn't listen to him. and if she were to become queen/lady of winterfell/regent, i believe he would not feel threatened by the political power she would. or again, like it says above, "Sansa, the viewer would be the active one, while Sandor would be ok with being the passive one..."

I agree. One of Sandor's big complex's is that he is such a contradictory character. He wants to save Sansa. But he wants her to save him to. He wants her to look at him without being forced. Save him from his insecurities and cynicism. I think this is a great point about gaze. It's something I didn't notice, but makes perfect since when pointed out.

Aw man, best story I've heard all day. I'd say those kinds of things are great for meeting women but of course

.

(and I totally was Team Jacob until he got weird and passive aggressive and became a pedo)

Except that was what worried me, that people would think that. Part of me wanted a sign that said, "Don't worry ladies. I did not come here to pick up girls that would get me sent to jail" (which was nearly all of them).

I was chiefly thinking of her thinking about how she hates all Knights and that the Hound was right; seeming to slightly move her closer to his cynical view of the world. But I think you're right. Sansa seems to have a different way and shes probably least likely to have a dark turn like Arya might; for the reasons you gave.

Well, losing your innocence is part of growing up. It's not a bad thing. It's good in fact. Sansa recognizing that life is not like a song is healthy (although the way she learned it was not).

[Queen Cersei I]

3. Hairiness on men is a sign of virility and male sexual prowess. :commie: Right?

Well....

According to Cersei: "Robert had been handsome enough when they'd married...but his hair grew thick all over his body, and coarse around his sex."

Clearly, Robert's stunning success with his three trueborn children and loving, sexually satisfied wife suggests that hairy men....well, yeah.

Oh, and also, "Robert's hair grew thick all over his body, and coarse around his sex"?-- :ack: :ack: :ack: :ack: and :stillsick: :ack: and :ack:

From the hairlessness is where it's at category:

Asha: "Qarl was a smooth as she was..." (later) "..her cunt became the whole world."

Danerys: "Daario's chest was as smooth and hairless as her own..."

And later: "That night Daario took her every way a man can take a woman." :eek: :drool:

So hairless= manly it is!

P.S.-- More on the undeniable sexiness of King Bob:

"He had grown a thick, coarse beard to hide his many chins and the sag of the royal jowels, but nothing could hide his stomach or the dark circles beneath his eyes."

"And everyone is rich and fat and merry," he said, slapping his own ample girth.

"Robert sighed, wiped his mouth on the back of his had, and stood up."

"By the time the two reached the bottom of the steps, Robert was red faced and panting.

"The king stood on his feet, red faced and reeling..."

Everybody with me now: what. A. Stud.

Is it any wonder that, when the cold, unthinkably unnatural Cersei refuses to respond to his gentle, husbandly advances, that he speaks the following: "Cersei is lovely to look upon, to be sure...but cold. The way she guards her cunt, you'd think that she had all the gold of Casterly Rock hidden up there."

Indeed, given Robert's delightful personal appearance, what could be Cersei's problem! The poor lady clearly did not know what she was missing, poor dear....

[Lady Lea]

Except that was what worried me, that people would think that. Part of me wanted a sign that said, "Don't worry ladies. I did not come here to pick up girls that would get me sent to jail" (which was nearly all of them).

Hey, there's always the Twilight Moms. ;)

Well, losing your innocence is part of growing up. It's not a bad thing. It's good in fact. Sansa recognizing that life is not like a song is healthy (although the way she learned it was not).

Yeah, I agree. I think it's a good thing that she learns that not all knights are "true", etc.

[brashcandy]

Well, losing your innocence is part of growing up. It's not a bad thing. It's good in fact. Sansa recognizing that life is not like a song is healthy (although the way she learned it was not).

Thanks for saying this. Innocence won't protect Sansa, but compassion along with a little bit of cunning will.

[Kittykatknits]

I was chiefly thinking of her thinking about how she hates all Knights and that the Hound was right; seeming to slightly move her closer to his cynical view of the world. But I think you're right. Sansa seems to have a different way and shes probably least likely to have a dark turn like Arya might; for the reasons you gave.

As Lord Bronn says, the only way for her to stay innocent is to remain a child, a fate that isn't possible for anyone (except for maybe Peter Pan but that's a different story). She's losing her innocence and replacing it with a much more realistic view of the world which she needs to have. But, as Lady Lea points out, she is retaining the traits that make up Sansa. She still displays compassion, she is still an empathetic person, she has not descended to a person filled with vengeance. Plus, when it comes to songs, I really wouldn't say that she has given up completely. Look at her interest in Mya and Lothur, she's very curious about the two of them so the love of romance still exists. Her lament that no one will love her for herself tells me that even though she may currently feel despair over this thought, it is still something she desires. So, the innocent part of her is gone, but the basics of Sansa as a character remain and I don't expect those dominating traits to change.

"Joli-laid" and "Jolie-laide" are the words you are trying to remember, I presume? It's a beautiful concept the French have managed to convey in a single word, however a hyphenated one. It has more to do with attitude than having classically beautiful physical features, and it outlines an idea that was already prominent in Classical Antiquity: some features that aren't exactly Adonis-like add character to a person's looks, but you have to be comfortable with them, as is evident if you look at not exactly pretty people who are perceived as sexy and handsome by others. I think director George Cukor said it best when giving advice to a youthful Sophia Loren: "A beautiful woman lacking in self-confidence is less attractive than a confident ugly woman."

Yes, thank you. I knew it started with a J. I had read some articles on the idea earlier this year and it made me think of Sandor.

Except that was what worried me, that people would think that. Part of me wanted a sign that said, "Don't worry ladies. I did not come here to pick up girls that would get me sent to jail" (which was nearly all of them).

That must have been awkward. :( I still don't understand what in that series sets so many people off. Many the part when he breaks her truck to keep her safe?

@Lady Lea - that video was disturbing. Just,,,I don't even know.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

EDIT: Because, fuck it.