Best and Worst Statesmen/women in the series?

[Lyanna Stark]

Fire Eater,

Interesting commentary on Baelor Breakspear, but I think there's one reason why leaders like Dany and Jon have a harder time with the inertia of institutions: they have no time to do so. While Dany is clearly suffering from a lack of delegating work and a lack of proper training, Jon is in a better position and only really fails because he is too progressive too fast. But on the other hand, his morals leave him little choice but to act as he does. His situation is more black and white and a whole lot bleaker than Baelor Breakspear's in Dunk and Egg, which I think should count into his favour as a leader and statesman.

While I think Jon Arryn and Ned Stark did a good job in the past, I am holding out for Jon Snow for the future. He's got great work ethics, he doesn't care for birth, he's guided by solid morals and he's not afraid of progressive thinking, plus he is most of the time able to put his own personal goals and vendettas aside (he tries hard with Selyse and Allister Thorne for instance).

A good statesman doesn't necessarily make a good back-stabbing politician (see: Ned), while a good back-stabbing politician doesn't necessarily make a good statesman (see: Baelish). Tyrion is another example of someone who had the makings of a good statesman, but who was ultimately politically outdone.

I agree. In many ways I think Tywin failed, because despite it all, his power and rule were based on fear and respect of him, personally. Which was something he could not pass on to his children. They all try, but only Tyrion gets really close, and Tywin didn't want him as a successor. (Interestingly, had Tywin got over his hatred of Tyrion and appointed him heir of Casterly Rock, the Lannister family would have been ten times as dangerous since having both Tywin and Tyrion working together would have been enough to bring anything and anyone to their knees.)

I gues we'll see, but it definitely feels like Tyrion is going to join Team Dany as a means of his personal crusade to bring the pain to Westeros and Cersei + Jaime especially, so perhaps he will get a second chance at reclaiming the role he lost to Tywin.

[Ser Areo Mace]

Best

Tywin Lannister

Jon Arryn

Petyr Baelish

Kevan Lannister

Doran Martell

Willas Tyrell

Olenna Redwyne

Walder Frey (he is has played the game well, you gotta give him that much)

Worst

Balon Greyjoy

Cersei Lannister

Mace Tyrell

Viserys Targaryen

Lysa Arryn

Joffrey "Baratheon" Waters

Ramsay Snow

I would like to watch this group sit in a room and discuss things.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

Off-topic nitpick, but wouldn't he be Joffrey Hill?

[Tony Soprano]

Off-topic nitpick, but wouldn't he be Joffrey Hill?

I think it goes after the region he was born in, not his parents' place of birth.

So, since Joffrey was born in the Crownlands, I'm pretty sure he'd be Waters.

[Chaircat Meow]

Do we have a baseline for what makes a good "statesman"? Because looking at some of these nominations, it doesn't look like it.

When I think of a statesman, I think of someone who is concerned about his or her legacy, someone who can rise above petty political machinations and achieve long-term results that make a country better and bring stability and justice. In that sense, I would consider someone like Robb to be a poor statesman, while someone like Ned (in his home region, at least) would be a good statesman. It also knocks someone like Baelish out of contention, because he's in it for himself and himself only.

I was thinking a bit more in terms of the ability individuals showed in the way they went about achieving their political goals, and whether they chose feasible ambitions, and a bit less about what those goals actually were.

I don't see much indication Ned was a good statesmen at all, largely because I don't buy that he could be so naive and inept in KL, and not have that spill over into his government of northern affairs.

[Frey Pie]

I don't see much indication Ned was a good statesmen at all, largely because I don't buy that he could be so naive and inept in KL, and not have that spill over into his government of northern affairs.

Well we know he was good in the North. He kept the Skaagosi quiet-they rebelled only a hundred years ago. He had the complete loyalty of Roose Bolton. He led them all succesfully under his banner in two wars. He is honoured by the Mountain Clans, who i would think are difficult to rule over. All in all the only person who speaks ill of him is Lady Dustin. Theres no evidence that he isnt skilled in Northern affairs, and much to the contrary.

Was Robbs goal of independance unfeasible? He had two great houses with him. He had an alliance with the Greyjoys on the way. Family ties and history put the Arryns with him. Stannis and Renly were going to duke it out. Robb could dance with Tywin until one of the aforementioned comes to KL and then Tywin dukes with one of them. If Renly won Robb could have gone on being king, as seemed likely. He may have bent the knee to Stannis. Under usual circumstances if Tywin won his power would be much diminished while Robbs was growing every day. Circumstances prevailed and he got killed by a number of dumb mistakes but layed out like that it doesnt seem unreasonable

In any case im not sure how Tywin can be number one, seen as we know hes hated by so many characters. Any allies he had would work to his downfall,or abandon his side when he died. As a statesman i cant see a fault with Doran, other then hes faced some unrest. Hes dealt with all this though

[Chaircat Meow]

What about Cat for someone who was pretty smart in political matters.

She's very knowledgeable about the political geography of the south and has clearly learned a lot about ruling from her father and from Ned.

She orchestrated the Frey alliance, the biggest political coup of Robb's southern campaign.

She wisely urged peace on the lords at RR, recognizing when the war had started to overshoot its initial aims.

She counselled against the return of Theon to Balon.

She came up with the idea of negotiating with the Baratheon brothers and of trying to form a broader anti-Lannister alliance.

Robb only screws up when she is not there.

She has the measure of Walder Frey better than anyone else.

Overall she is shrewd and realistic and has good instincts.

[Frey Pie]

What about Cat for someone who was pretty smart in political matters.

She's very knowledgeable about the political geography of the south and has clearly learned a lot about ruling from her father and from Ned.

She orchestrated the Frey alliance, the biggest political coup of Robb's southern campaign.

She wisely urged peace on the lords at RR, recognizing when the war had started to over shoot it's initial aims.

She counselled against the return of Theon to Balon.

She came up with the idea of negotiating with the Baratheon brothers and of trying to form a broader anti-Lannister alliance.

Robb only screws up when she is not there.

She has the measure of Walder Frey better than anyone else.

Overall she is shrewd and realistic and has good instincts.

Well said. However there are a few points against her. Councilling against making Jon Robbs heir for one. Releasing Jaime Lannister for another. I also think not going to Bitterbridge was a collosal mistake on her part-it would have been Catelyn versus LF here. The Starks have a lot to give

[TalalOfDorne]

Doran Martell has kept Dorne an autonomy and out of conflicts, yet still influential in court! This is the definition of a good statesman in my opinion. The smallfolk do not suffer, they retain their culture, their pride, and also their influence, while not being in open conflicts and war.

He also has been plotting for years, swallowing his pride when the hot blooded dornish laugh behind his back that he's weak and timid and never acts. He cannot allow himself to get provoked - like many of the other leaders have. And he keeps paddling...

I'm not saying that he is the most brilliant statesman no questions asked, I'm saying he is really good and seriously underrated IMO.

Couldn't agree more. I just wish that the rest of his family had as much sense as he does especially Arianne who is his heir

[TalalOfDorne]

My best two have to be Doran, who as mentioned above stayed influential and still kept his people out of danger. And Kevan who really seems to have been able to repair some of the damage Cercei had done. If Kevan assumed power right after Tywins death things would've been smoother in Kings landing. His death is a bigger turning point than Tywins and may be the trigger to the Lannisters ultimate downfall.

I think it has been established that the worst statesmen/women so far is Cercei. Mace Tyrell and Lysa are also down their. Even though the Greyjoys who (Along with the Martells) are my favorite houses i cant help but wonder what was Balon thinking when he rebelled the first time? His second rebellion however is much more successful and had better outcomes seeing as the ironborn are still independent.

[Barty]

We've had a 'worst generals in the series' thread, so what about a 'best and worst statesmen/women thread.'

In Westeros, who, in your opinion, is the worst at working effectively towards achieving their political ambitions? Who displays the most skill in making friends and allies, understanding the nature of the people they have to work with, using good counsel, realizing when a project is politically feasible or not, when it's a good idea to back down and compromise, etc.

The boot, it seems to me, is on the other foot here. Boys like to play at war but it takes a man (or a lady) to bear rule. Those who excel on the field of battle often fail lamentably in the more subtle arts of statesmanship.

So, I nominate Ned Stark and Robb Stark for the worst, and Tywin Lannister and Littlefinger as the best.

Ned and Robb are worse than cersei?? Robb and Ned were basically torpedoed by Cat. Cersei goes around destroying the seven kingdoms all by herself.

And what about Danny?? I'd much rather be ruled by Robb than Danny - we've seen what she does to Astapor and Meereen.

[FittleLinger]

My best two have to be Doran, who as mentioned above stayed influential and still kept his people out of danger. And Kevan who really seems to have been able to repair some of the damage Cercei had done. If Kevan assumed power right after Tywins death things would've been smoother in Kings landing. His death is a bigger turning point than Tywins and may be the trigger to the Lannisters ultimate downfall.

Just to support the Kevan point - a cunning and insightful plotter like Varys killed Kevan exactly because he was undoing the damage his crazy niece had been so busy doing, so quickly and successfully.

[Barty]

Best

Tywin

Tyrion

Worst

Cersei

Danny

Mediocre(by which I mean good for peace times)

Robb

Ned

Robert

[Lyanna Stark]

<snipped great post>

:agree:

Cat's fabulous.

Regarding Cat going to Bitterbridge to "beat" Littlefinger at his own game, I am not sure she could have "beaten him" at that point, even if she had tried. Besides, Robb had already agreed to marry a Frey, and she didn't have Sansa or Arya to offer up, since Robb was too stupid to trade Jaime for them (Jaime being a KG means Tywin could not offer him as part of a marriage alliance).

[Greywater Reed]

My best two have to be Doran, who as mentioned above stayed influential and still kept his people out of danger. And Kevan who really seems to have been able to repair some of the damage Cercei had done. If Kevan assumed power right after Tywins death things would've been smoother in Kings landing. His death is a bigger turning point than Tywins and may be the trigger to the Lannisters ultimate downfall.

I agree with all of this. Kevan was so good at fixing things that the Lannisters might have been back on the right path, which is of course why he had to die.

[Frey Pie]

:agree:

Cat's fabulous.

Regarding Cat going to Bitterbridge to "beat" Littlefinger at his own game, I am not sure she could have "beaten him" at that point, even if she had tried. Besides, Robb had already agreed to marry a Frey, and she didn't have Sansa or Arya to offer up, since Robb was too stupid to trade Jaime for them (Jaime being a KG means Tywin could not offer him as part of a marriage alliance).

Im not so sure. Edmure is a catch-pun intended. Hes a good match for Margaery, and im sure he wouldnt say no when hes seen her. At this stage Robb is the Young Wolf who hasnt put a step wrong. Hes a far more likeable character then Joffrey or Tywin. Tywin couldnt hope to beat the combined forces if they allied, so KL was up for grabs as wel as large parts of the West which would come with the Lannisters fall. Mace could basically have made himself King.

As wel as Edmure for a groom, Robb could offer Sansa as a promise to Willas Tyrell. Bran and Rickon are also unpromised. Harrenhal is a seat without an owner and a great castle on its own, with rich lands and a vast estate, a nice seat for Loras perhaps. The loot from the West is up for grabs. We know the Greatjon raided the goldmines. Really i see the combined package of the North to be a better prize then what they got from the Lannisters. I know Mace wanted Marg to be Queen, but he could have made himself King.

I like Cat and i know she was in a bad position with Brienne but i do think it was an error not going there. Even if she didnt succeed she could warn Edmure about another possible alliance

[Stormcloak]

The best: Ned, Robb, Jon Arryn.

Honourable, just, care about their people. I wouldn't mind living somewhere where they ran the show.

In the middle: Tyrells, Martells, Stannis, Renly, Tyrion, Daenerys, Kevan

The worst: Tywin, Littlefinger, Cersei, Joffrey, Balon, Euron, Aerys

Some of these are excellent schemers but I don't care, they're all ruthless and couldn't care less for smallfolk. I'd follow none of them.

[Lonin]

The best : Tywin , LF, some Tyrell (we dont get an attractive view of Mace, but the family has grown wealthy and strong, someone is doing a good job, I m not sure its Olenna)

The Worst: Cersei, its not close

[Arkantos]

I don't see how Tywin could be the best when almost everyone wanted him dead, including his own son.

I'd say that Littlefinger is near the top. Probably Kevan too, he was a good guy like Ned, only he spent more time with sly buggers like Tywin, so he knew the game, shame Varys is just the master puppeteer. Tyrion wasn't bad, but being a dwarf screwed him over in public opinion.

The worst has got to be Cersei, for obvious reasons.

[Chaircat Meow]

I don't see how Tywin could be the best when almost everyone wanted him dead, including his own son.

So Tyrion (after he was disgraced), Varys (probably, although that means he's effective, Varys killed Kevan for that reason), Doran. Anyone else of importance? The funny thing is Doran is not much of a danger, in the grand scheme of things. The fact he looked scary, for a time, was purely a product of Dany hatching three dragons.