The Plot to Kill Jon

[Lummel]

Sorry for any misunderstanding, I absolutely do not currently, nor have I previously subscribed to a Jon planned his own assassination theory. I don't see any evidence in his chapters to support such a view.

[MrsManderly]

Sorry for any misunderstanding, I absolutely do not currently, nor have I previously ascribed to a Jon planned his own assassination theory. I don't see any evidence in his chapters to support such a view.

Sorry I may have misunderstood that this was your post. But I think someone on this thread did put it forward? Or am I smoking something?

[Lummel]

It's here from Paralyze7.

[Chaircat Meow]

Sorry I may have misunderstood that this was your post. But I think someone on this thread did put it forward? Or am I smoking something?

Post 31 argued for that theory.

It's not consistent with Jon's thoughts and reactions in his last chapter and there is no motive for him to want to die.

Edit: Ninjad. Drat.

[MrsManderly]

Hello my friend Bran! I was wondering how long it would be before you showed up on another Marsh-related thread :cheers:

I love your changing avatars BTW - all supercute Brans, as it "says on the tin"!

[evita mgfs]

I posted some of my Jon beliefs earlier.

I like a variety of ideas, and hold court with many, not just one.

I will assert that Jon Snow is not too bright - or misguided - or arrogant - for ignoring [if he did/does] the half a hundred warnings he had from Mel, his former leaders such Halfhand and Mormont and Ned - all who told him, in words similar: "A good lord knows his men!"

I will be disappointed if Jon at least did not wear mail in the event of 'daggers in the dark'. But then I reall that he is "a boy, a bastard boy' - and he has much to learn.

Here is part of a post I made regarding Jon's fate:

Martin emphasizes Jon Snow’s “Stark look” so much throughout the series that I doubt Jon’s ‘physical’ body will die; however, if it does, Mel has already established that “the bones remember”. Likewise, in Bran’s POV from the warded cave, where Brynden Rivers and the dead bones of assorted COF, greenseers, singers, enthroned in the vaults, buried in the roots of trees and earth to sing in a language men forgot but the trees remember – yet some of those singers also live on in the ravens, as Bran experiences.

V6S also proves that the bones remember – but after time, as Haggon says, “‘They say you forget,’ Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. ‘When the man’s flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades and the beast becomes a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains” (12).

“V6S knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell’s, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence Orell had been slain by the turncloak Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that V6S found himself hating the beastling boy as well” (12).

Before V6S joins with One-Eye, his “spirit” travels into the weirwood, into earth, and stone, etc.. If V6S did not have the warging gift, he would have met the fate established by the COF.

However, Martin foreshadows, or intimates, Jon warging Ghost when V6S thinks,

“Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king” (12). That is, if Jon is Lyanna’s and Rhaegar’s, or if Jon is the Prince Who Is Promised, or if Robb named Jon King of the North, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North, and dismissed his crow vows.

So –Jon will warg Ghost –

Mance boasts about accessing Jon’s window in the armory – Ghost exits via window;

**and since Martin details the drifting snow – the jump from the armory escape is made easier with less of a distance to scale – Ghost’s leap will be buffered by the snow, as Martin established when Theon and Jeyne Poole jumped from the Walls of Winterfell.

**And since Ghost is an agent of Brynden Rivers, i.e., Bran’s POV: “In a sense . . . Those you call the COF have eyes as golden as the sun [Summer], but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood [Ghost], or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest [Jojen]. By these signs do the gods mark those chosen to receive the gift. The chosen are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few [Bran and Jojen] for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of anient trees. Greenseers’” (452).

This leads me to believe that Ghost’s wolf instincts will trump Jon’s human instincts, and he will head for Bran’s cave [Martin already established that Ghost knows how to get around the Wall – he did so to reunite with Jon to convince him to deny Stannis’s offer – for Ghost’s red eyes and white fur were the ‘old gods’ and Jon refused to give up his old gods] instead of Winterfell. [Although I like the irony of ‘a Ghost in Winterfell’].

I am not suggesting Jon has greensight; as BR says, ‘blood’ makes one a greenseer, so IF Jon is half Targ, I don’t think he qualifies – but that can be argued against as well.

I do think there will most certainly be a Ghost POV in WOW – in which he will travel to Bran. Guided by Mormont’s raven and then perhaps “the murder of ravens” who guided Bran’s journey. Martin hints at a parallel journey for Jon similar to Bran’s – i.e., Ghost will meet V6S, but kill One-Eye.

Jon’s Stark body will be preserved in his absence – that is, his bones will not be burned. As predicted in a Bran dream, he sees Jon in ice cells. Whether Jon truly dies, I am not sure. Does it matter if HIS Bones Remember?

At some point, Ghost will need to return Jon to his body before Jon becomes the beast and forgets his spirit [Haggon and V6S]. Either way, Jon will reanimate his body – whether he is kept alive or whether he is dead. [Martin establishes groundwork for either fate].

I fancy a dead Jon, or sexy vampire, not the wights or Others. Jon will be a ‘new’ species – one born of a warg reanimating his former host, one that is dead. Since the COF live in ravens whose eyes hold secrets yet their bones remember, so Jon, under Bran’s tutelage, will learn – for the power is strong in both.

[evita mgfs]

Jon is already a werewolf - why not a vampire too, similar to Lykens?

[MrsManderly]

Hi Evita, thanks for explaining your theory.

I must say, I personally don't really buy it chiefly because

(1) I don't agree with your starting premise that Jon is not so smart -- while he certainly has been at times naive, especially early on, I think he has shown a good degree of intelligence in terms of his ability to see the big picture (e.g. seeing that the real threat are the Others and hence the need to deal with the Wildlings) and also in terms of growing political cunning in the later books (e.g. the advice he gives to Stannis on his winter campaign).

(2) Personally I'm not a huge fan of overdoing the magical elements in ASOIAF, and would really not welcome the addition of vampires, warevolves and other supernatural creatures to the story. I think wargs, Others, wights, dragons, COTF and giants are quite sufficient. Obviously, that is a matter of taste.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and see what comes out in TWOW!

[Paralyze7]

I posted the idea of Jon having planned the execution himself (which I admit has holes... isn't that the fun of it??) and I think what LARGELY influences this idea for me is the prologue. The prologues in the other books are referenced later on in the book but with DWD i don't remember it specifically referencing the prologue anywhere.

If my memory still works the prologue is about a guy who's badly injured / dying and "wargs" himself into an animal as a last-ditch effort to save himself.

[7V3N]

Selyse hated how Jon was not submissive to Stannis, and that Jon went by his own rules in a way. Not to mention she nearly worships Mel. I would not rule out her involvement.

[evita mgfs]

Hi Evita, thanks for explaining your theory.

I must say, I personally don't really buy it chiefly because

(1) I don't agree with your starting premise that Jon is not so smart -- while he certainly has been at times naive, especially early on, I think he has shown a good degree of intelligence in terms of his ability to see the big picture (e.g. seeing that the real threat are the Others and hence the need to deal with the Wildlings) and also in terms of growing political cunning in the later books (e.g. the advice he gives to Stannis on his winter campaign).

(2) Personally I'm not a huge fan of overdoing the magical elements in ASOIAF, and would really not welcome the addition of vampires, warevolves and other supernatural creatures to the story. I think wargs, Others, wights, dragons, COTF and giants are quite sufficient. Obviously, that is a matter of taste.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and see what comes out in TWOW!

I agree! I don't want another Twilight Series. However, IF Jon did not take precautions, which I think he did/does, then I think he has been foolish not to mind the warnings. [As great Caesar ignored the soothsayer, twice, and Arty, and his own wife Calpurnia, and the Night's Watch and the sacrifice of the beast born without a heart - to wit Caesar says, paraphrase: "A coward dies a 1000 deaths, a hero only one!" Sound familiar?"] :grouphug:

[Lummel]

...If my memory still works the prologue is about a guy who's badly injured / dying and "wargs" himself into an animal as a last-ditch effort to save himself.

Well the difference is that Varamyr is dying in the prologue, warging the wolf allows him a second life. Jon by contrast is in full health, sacrificing his body just to be able to inhabit Ghost particularly when that runs counter to his POV is very strange.

Full marks for inventiveness though :)

@ Evita

Yes the question of if Jon takes precautions is an interesting one. He has a meeting with Yarwyck, Cellador and Marsh, when Marsh says that the men have concerns, Jon decides not to ask which men because he doesn't want to go down that road.

He also discusses the murder of Mormont by rangers with Dolorous Edd so the notion of assassination by his brothers is definitely around and of course there is the Melisandre warning in the first Jon chapter too.

But we know that he eschews having guards, doesn't always have ghost with him and doesn't seem to have a network of spies friends telling him what the other brothers are thinking, nor is there even any reference to his wearing some or any armour as a matter of course. So it seems as though he decides not to act on the warnings. This in contrast to Daenerys who is generally worried and concerned by the warning that Quaithe gives her, we see her in her thoughts trying to match the Quaithe descriptions with actual people in her live in several of her chapters.

[Chaircat Meow]

I agree! I don't want another Twilight Series. However, IF Jon did not take precautions, which I think he did/does, then I think he has been foolish not to mind the warnings. [As great Caesar ignored the soothsayer, twice, and Arty, and his own wife Calpurnia, and the Night's Watch and the sacrifice of the beast born without a heart - to wit Caesar says, paraphrase: "A coward dies a 1000 deaths, a hero only one!" Sound familiar?"] :grouphug:

Why do you think Jon is foolish for not listening to Mel? He knows she isn't reliable. He did realize Bowen and co might 'betray' him, at the end of the chap where they discuss Tormund's crossing. But he doesn't really inquire into his popularity in the watch (aside from noting who was dissatisfied at Alys' wedding) and at the end this looks to have been a serious oversight. Bowen isn't even the worst of it because there are wildling hostages at Shadowtower and Eastwatch and Denys and Hewett might share Bowen's reaction to Jon's jaunt south.

I see it this way. Just because you're intelligent, precocious, wise beyond your years and 'able, that above all' (like your real father) as Jon is, doesn't mean you can't fuck up and misjudge a situation. I think Jon is presented as being very competent indeed, so I don't see him making some oversights which turn out to be quite serious as ruining the character GrrM has been creating.

Edit: Ninjad again. This is rubbish.

[Chaircat Meow]

Hello my friend Bran! I was wondering how long it would be before you showed up on another Marsh-related thread :cheers:

I love your changing avatars BTW - all supercute Brans, as it "says on the tin"!

Yea, I got a bit obsessive about it, but I'm basically over it now. :laugh:

[evita mgfs]

Why do you think Jon is foolish for not listening to Mel? He knows she isn't reliable. He did realize Bowen and co might 'betray' him, at the end of the chap where they discuss Tormund's crossing. But he doesn't really inquire into his popularity in the watch (aside from noting who was dissatisfied at Alys' wedding) and at the end this looks to have been a serious oversight. Bowen isn't even the worst of it because there are wildling hostages at Shadowtower and Eastwatch and Denys and Hewett might share Bowen's reaction to Jon's jaunt south.

I see it this way. Just because you're intelligent, precocious, wise beyond your years and 'able, that above all' (like your real father) as Jon is, doesn't mean you can't fuck up and misjudge a situation. I think Jon is presented as being very competent indeed, so I don't see him making some oversights which turn out to be quite serious as ruining the character GrrM has been creating.

Edit: Ninjad again. This is rubbish.

I agree. I love Jon.

But I like to look at all sides.

There is evidence that Jon even Knows the names of the men who loath him.

My latest fixation with the whole "Who Shot Jon" has something to do with cloaks and windows. Which will suggest Jon had some idea of daggers in the dark. He makes sure the window in the armory is opened, a daily habit to let Mormont's raven out, and a throw back to Ned's obsession with cool North air.

It will be Ghost/Jon's escape.

[Lummel]

Doesn't the evidence run the other way? Apart from Marsh, Cellador and Yarwyck Jon seems to turn a blind eye to opposition.

[hearmeroar92]

I see no reason for the Varamyr POV if that warging that he does from a body to another will not aply to Jon or another Stark...I really think Jon will warg to Ghost(planned or not ) and then he will go back in his corpse or in some other body, maybe the body of an important character...

[evita mgfs]

I see no reason for the Varamyr POV if that warging that he does from a body to another will not aply to Jon or another Stark...I really think Jon will warg to Ghost(planned or not ) and then he will go back in his corpse or in some other body, maybe the body of an important character...

:agree:

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I see no reason for the Varamyr POV if that warging that he does from a body to another will not aply to Jon or another Stark...I really think Jon will warg to Ghost(planned or not ) and then he will go back in his corpse or in some other body, maybe the body of an important character...

Except that Haggon's teachings give us way more insight into the shit Bran and Arya pull off.

[Mr_Random]

Jon may not have planned his own death, but I believe he was very much aware of it being a sure thing in the near future.

First; he ensures that Ghost is safe when he heads out for the sheildhall (and at every other important meeting he had since Ghost returned to him).

Second; he announces boldly, knowing the death sentence that his announcement brings.

Third; he wears no armor.

Fourth; he is super nonchalant about Mel's warnings, despite knowing that while she isn't accurate about who and when, all the major details of her "flame visions" pan out as predicted.

I also think, more than anything, that he is surprised by the remorse his brothers show when knifing him.

I would go as far as to say that Ghost already had part of Jon in him, noted by Jon's despair at his absence beyond the Wall.

I don't think he expects to Warg back into his dead body, but that's where Mel comes in:

She probably had no involvement with the plot to kill Jon, but was counting on it nonetheless. We know that "the kiss of fire" has already brought back two people, and Stoneheart may remember herself, but spending as many days dead as she had, her Bones remembered too much of the darkness and cold of death to bring her back as anything but vengeful. However, Jon has the ability to stay alive in Ghost, so maybe when Mel gives his body the Kiss, he will be pulled back into it with full consciousness intact. Also, we know that Mel has an unusual bond with Ghost, and may even push him (even with Jon inside) to be part of her agenda...

Beyond that, the PtwP is supposed to have death bow before him, so in order to fulfill that fully, she may need him to go through the resurrection process.

Then there is the foreshadowing of Jon loving Yggrite, with her special Red Hair, and making note of that feature on everyone else sharing it.

Of course, I also think that Cold Hands might be the Night's King... A Stark warg killed, turned into a wight, then warged back into his dead body...