The Plot to Kill Jon

[evita mgfs]

I also use as a guide the conspirators of JC in Shakespeare's tragedy - [this is brief - I fully develop these consp. with textual evidence in other threads] –

Thorne - Caius Cassius, the movement behind the plot, responsible for manipulating Marcus Brutus/Bowen Marsh into joining the cause.

Bowen Marsh - Marcus Brutus - the only honorable conspirator, not totally motivated by personal means.

Wick Whittlestick - Casca, first to rear his hand and signal, "Speak, hands, for me!"

Ser Patrek – Decius Brutus, the one who gets Caesar to the Capital on Ides of March through manipulation and lie

Cydas – Cinna, Cinna delivers fake letters to Brutus flattering him, urging him to “Think, now, redress” ?

Trebonius? – detain Antony outside the Capital – I am not sure who is keeping Thunderfist distracted?

Metellus Cimber? He presents a suit to Caesar, one that the cons. know he will refuse, so that the assassins can advance closer on Caesar, fawning and begging for him to appeal Publius Cimber’s banishment. [Daggers are a personal murder – you have to be close to your target]

Caius Ligarius? He is the sick man who has a miraculous recovery when he hears Brutus has joined the cause.

Other Dramatis Personæ:

Tormund Thunderfist – Marc Antony – Caesar’s loyal friend who will avenge his murder.

Melisandre - Soothsayer – warns Caesar at least twice to “Beware the Ides of March”

This is for fun -

[The Giver]

I think you guys are reading a little too much into Wun Wun being bait to draw Jon to his death. Ser Patrek was very interested in fighting him and getting to Val. I feel like the assassins just took the opportunity of the chaos to get to Jon, since most of the wildlings were busy getting drunk and Jon didn't have Ghost with him. I also think that there was a lot of fighting going on between the men of the night's watch, the wildlings, and the queen's men as described when Jon is getting attacked. It's very possible that someone there protects him after he passes out, since he wasn't alone and friendless there.

[evita mgfs]

I think we did a good job reading too much into the Ides of Marsh. We have evidence - no one is claiming that unicorns conspired to kill Jon. We post to share our ideas because it's fun to analyze and such.

Other people put a lot of thought into theories about Jojen Paste.

Besides, Mel's fires confirm Jon's danger:

Mel says to Jon, in her warning for him to discern seeming versus seeing: “It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you . . .” (DWD 59).

And

“I have seen the storm, hard-pressed with enemies on every side. You have many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?”

Jon replies cryptically, “I know their names.”

[The Giver]

Yes, I like analyzing as well. I was just adding my two cents about wun wun. I don't think attacking him had to do with killing Jon. It was just coincidental. As for everyone else, that's up in the air as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not arguing against people turning on him. Just that one part of the theory doesn't sit well. We already knew Ser Patrek wanted to fight Wun Wun, nothing to do with Jon.

[evita mgfs]

Yes, I like analyzing as well. I was just adding my two cents about wun wun. I don't think attacking him had to do with killing Jon. It was just coincidental. As for everyone else, that's up in the air as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not arguing against people turning on him. Just that one part of the theory doesn't sit well. We already knew Ser Patrek wanted to fight Wun Wun, nothing to do with Jon.

I don't know for sure, just speculating. I think when Jon scolds Ser Patrick in front of queen and co., he does not win a friend. :fencing:

And back to Caesar - Cassius' main complaints against Caesar are that he is a poor swimmer, and Cassius had to carry this load across the raging Tiber while in 'full armor'. And Caesar had the 'falling sickness' - oh, 'this god did shake!'

He resents Caesar's growing power and popularity with the masses, especially because Caesar is physically weak.

Come on! And Brutus doesn't see through this scam?

How did Wick and Bowen know to attack JS [in tandem] during the confusion? They had to have had some words. :cool4:

But maybe they are warged, as others suggest.

[i always wanted to use that little fencing thing! It fits with a discussion on JS's fate!]

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I don't think its as similar to the plot against ceasar as its being made out to be. Giving everyone a part to play is a bit too far. In my opinion I don't see george seeing it that way in his own head. There is a resemblance to the ides of march and the assasination of ceasar. Especially if we think about jon becoming a "ghost". But I don't think its similar enough to assign parts to various watchmen.

[evita mgfs]

I apologize for this lesson, but the school teacher in me demands it – [i am sure my years exceed some of the posters here, so I hold umbrage]. :crying: :tantrum:

According to English Language and Usage [at http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/6773/in-a-written-work-is-it-better-to-reference-people-by-their-first-or-last-name]

“Generally, with names in the Western world that consist of a given name ("first name") and a surname, the surname is used for formal occasions, and the given name is used only in cases of familiarity. [ Martin, not George; Shakespeare not Bill, Will, Willy; Coleridge not Sam or Sammy; Joyce not Jamie; Keats not Jonny] :thumbsdown:

You would use [George]only if you wanted it to appear informal and suggest that you were on a "first-name basis" with Mr. [Martin]— knew him intimately — and possibly so was your audience. (E.g. you'd use it if you were toasting your friend [George] among an audience of his friends.)

Incidentally, when talking to people, there's a greater assumption of familiarity—you can use the given name in more occasions—in America than in Europe (and in younger people than in older), where using the given name indiscriminately can cause offence or irritate. In general, it's always safe to use the surname, until you're asked to use the given name.” :cool4:

Also, check out my Caesar homages here, where you may see Martin's deliberate 'references' to Shakespeare's tragedy throughout the novels, not just in reference to DWD and Ides of Marsh: http://asoiaf.wester...s/page__st__760

Then bore yourself with my parody of Antony's famous funeral oration if delivered by Tormund Thunderfist. http://asoiaf.wester...es/page__st__20 :wacko:

[Cynthia Snow]

I don't think Patrek knew about the assassination attempt, thought perhaps Bowen's men had egged him on up until that point so that he would attack Wun Wun that night. Though, this is assuming Bowen planned on this particular night for the assassination- maybe once Jon made his announcement he knew they had to strike then before Jon could leave.

Also, I thought it was pretty straight forward who the four attackers were, not even thinking about Yarwick, though perhaps he was involved...

In Shieldhall, Jon notes,

Othell was surrounded by his builders, while Bowen had Wick Wittlestick, Left Hand Lew, and Alf of Runnymudd beside him.

Then they all slip out. I assumed this meant that Bowen, Wick, Lew and Alf were the four knives, and we know Bowen and Wick were two of them.

[ef220]

My including Othell Yarwyck amongst the attackers was my own mistake, I just remembers Jon calling someone Wick and did not remember that was someone's name and not just a possible nickname for Yarwyck.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I don't think Patrek knew about the assassination attempt, thought perhaps Bowen's men had egged him on up until that point so that he would attack Wun Wun that night. Though, this is assuming Bowen planned on this particular night for the assassination- maybe once Jon made his announcement he knew they had to strike then before Jon could leave.

Also, I thought it was pretty straight forward who the four attackers were, not even thinking about Yarwick, though perhaps he was involved...

In Shieldhall, Jon notes,

Then they all slip out. I assumed this meant that Bowen, Wick, Lew and Alf were the four knives, and we know Bowen and Wick were two of them.

I noticed the emphasis on these four in the shieldhall. They do make the most sense as to who the knives were.

As to the whole shakespeare thing. I don't think george would be that redundant to use the characters from the play and assign their parts to characters in the novel. Its obvious that martin uses shakespearean influences. Along with dickens. Tolkien and several other writers. but I personally don't think he would be that direct with the influences. He always wants to break the mold of what's been done before. So that's why I don't think he would take a previous mold then just tweak it and use it. There is a hint of the play but its not as direct as assigning his own characters parts to play. And yes I'm calling him george its his first name. There is nothing wrong with reffering to him as george. George Martin. Mr. Martin. Or the author. They all deliver the same effect. I was using george as a friendly term. Because being a fan of his work constitutes a friend to his work. Sorry to disagree maybe I'm just Young and Niave but I don't think its as easy as examining the events that unfolded and assigning people parts that were somewhat similar to the play. That works to relate it to the play and explain how the events unfolded but I don't think his characters fit into the characters from the play. Maybe because I see them as being so different its hard for me to imagine them in the same parts. all I noticed is jon = ceasar.

[Paralyze7]

Here's my theory (I read the book a bit ago so please forgive the lack of details... you should still get the idea though).

Jon planned it himself and he's not dead.

In the prologue we're introduced to a character who's near death and before he dies he takes on the form of an eagle to let his human body die. I think Melissandre knows this and keeps trying to warn Jon about his fate at the Wall. Jon finally trusts Melissandre and she proposes this to him as a means for him to leave the Nights Watch and head south to Winterfell & Stannis. Ghost is long gone and Jon announces his leaving the Night Watch (which is punishable by death) knowing that he'll be attacked. He heads out, is stabbed and takes the form of Ghost as his human body is killed. There are also hints in the murder to the prophecy of the return of the god of Light in the salty tear, smoky wounds, star in the sky... so I think in Winds Of Winter Jon will be "reborn", free of the Nights Watch and ready to lay waste.

The theory kind of clicked with me as I thought it was odd that Jon would boldly announce his leaving the Night's Watch (death sentence), the fact that Ghost is missing and the prologue seems to explain the process for someone to leave a human body and use an animal's temporarily.

My sincerest apologies for the lack of details but hopefully there's enough here to spark some thoughts / debate.

[Stannis the Wight]

The four who left were definitely involved, whether all four had stabbed him remains to be seen.... I think perhaps Wun Wun and Leathers, maybe even Ghost come to his defense therefore him being able to warg into Ghost?

What about Cersei's hired goon?

[Pugsley]

@Paralyze7

The problem I see with that theory is that we read the attack through Jon's POV, and he seems genuinely surprised. If he were behind it, wouldn't we see that in his thoughts?

[YoungGriff the Conqueror]

Haha @Mr DarkStark you got schooled! :lmao:

[Lummel]

...Also, check out my Caesar homages here, where you may see Martin's deliberate 'references' to Shakespeare's tragedy throughout the novels, not just in reference to DWD and Ides of Marsh: http://asoiaf.wester...s/page__st__760...

GRRM certainly isn't shy about making reference to other works in ASOIAF and the Ides of Marsh is a pretty clear one I think. It certainly could explain the thinking of the conspirators - they see Jon as a would be Caesar, a second Night's King, someone who is overthrowing the traditional constitution and purpose of the Night's Watch, a traitor to the realm.

Like the play there seems to be no reason to think that it will all turn out well for the conspirators either.

[evita mgfs]

GRRM certainly isn't shy about making reference to other works in ASOIAF and the Ides of Marsh is a pretty clear one I think. It certainly could explain the thinking of the conspirators - they see Jon as a would be Caesar, a second Night's King, someone who is overthrowing the traditional constitution and purpose of the Night's Watch, a traitor to the realm.

Like the play there seems to be no reason to think that it will all turn out well for the conspirators either.

Thank you, ,most sincerely. I realize that my top post is 'literal' - I just referenced JC as a 'reference point' for insight into Snow's assassination. For example, someone, like AThorne, had to be the 'organizer', like Cassius.

Have you heard the expression "Great Caesar's Ghost?" In the tragedy, Caesar's ghost appears in Acts 4 and 5; some scholars believe Marc Antony is possessed by Caesar's spirit when he shakes the bloody hands of the conspirators and pretends to be their friend. The fact that JS will warg his "Ghost" with certain retributions in mind seems believeable - only we say, "Great JON Snow's Ghost"!! :stunned:

[evita mgfs]

Here's my theory (I read the book a bit ago so please forgive the lack of details... you should still get the idea though).

Jon planned it himself and he's not dead.

In the prologue we're introduced to a character who's near death and before he dies he takes on the form of an eagle to let his human body die. I think Melissandre knows this and keeps trying to warn Jon about his fate at the Wall. Jon finally trusts Melissandre and she proposes this to him as a means for him to leave the Nights Watch and head south to Winterfell & Stannis. Ghost is long gone and Jon announces his leaving the Night Watch (which is punishable by death) knowing that he'll be attacked. He heads out, is stabbed and takes the form of Ghost as his human body is killed. There are also hints in the murder to the prophecy of the return of the god of Light in the salty tear, smoky wounds, star in the sky... so I think in Winds Of Winter Jon will be "reborn", free of the Nights Watch and ready to lay waste.

The theory kind of clicked with me as I thought it was odd that Jon would boldly announce his leaving the Night's Watch (death sentence), the fact that Ghost is missing and the prologue seems to explain the process for someone to leave a human body and use an animal's temporarily.

My sincerest apologies for the lack of details but hopefully there's enough here to spark some thoughts / debate.

Good Job, Lummel.

Your theory is where I am as well. Jon must die - but his bones will be preserved in the ice cellars, because the "bones" remember. Just like the deadly remains of the Starks in WF, most early Kings of the North and Princes of WF warged direwolves - hence their stone appearance warding the feet of the granite Stark.

Once the ward breaks at the Wall, it will no doubt break the ward maintaining the ghosts at WF, keeping them in their graves.

According to V6S:

V6S also proves that the bones remember – but after time, as Haggon says, “‘They say you forget,’ Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. ‘When the man’s flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades and the beast becomes a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains” (12).

In a quick bit - since I posted my beliefs elsewhere in more detail: the appearance of the direwolves and the 'teeth' on the Stark's laps - the 'beasts' are afraid of men's teeth - the swords were part of the ward on WF to keep the 'warging' dead starks from returning to their bones [Maester Luwin waisted no time getting Ned's grave and statue prepared) Further. I develop further here. .http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69804-ghosts-of-winterfell-winterfell-crypts/page__st__80

Enjoy! :cheers:

[Lummel]

Thank you, ,most sincerely. I realize that my top post is 'literal' - I just referenced JC as a 'reference point' for insight into Snow's assassination. For example, someone, like AThorne, had to be the 'organizer', like Cassius...

Well the Ides of Marsh joke has been rattling around in my mind for at least a year now and the Julius Caesar comparison came up in the Learning to Lead thread (eventually at some point in the discussion).

I do discount Thorne as an organiser though because he's off the scene ranging. The tension between Jon and Bowen really builds up once he's gone with the confrontations stepping up and Jon taking what must seem to Marsh to be an increasingly wayward course.

[evita mgfs]

I noticed the emphasis on these four in the shieldhall. They do make the most sense as to who the knives were.

As to the whole shakespeare thing. I don't think george would be that redundant to use the characters from the play and assign their parts to characters in the novel. Its obvious that martin uses shakespearean influences. Along with dickens. Tolkien and several other writers. but I personally don't think he would be that direct with the influences. He always wants to break the mold of what's been done before. So that's why I don't think he would take a previous mold then just tweak it and use it. There is a hint of the play but its not as direct as assigning his own characters parts to play. And yes I'm calling him george its his first name. There is nothing wrong with reffering to him as george. George Martin. Mr. Martin. Or the author. They all deliver the same effect. I was using george as a friendly term. Because being a fan of his work constitutes a friend to his work. Sorry to disagree maybe I'm just Young and Niave but I don't think its as easy as examining the events that unfolded and assigning people parts that were somewhat similar to the play. That works to relate it to the play and explain how the events unfolded but I don't think his characters fit into the characters from the play. Maybe because I see them as being so different its hard for me to imagine them in the same parts. all I noticed is jon = ceasar.

Read my post above. I know I am from a different generation, young pup. But I quoted the MLA - the OLD GODs of writing about literature, masters and doctorate degrees.

IT IS POOR FORM TO CALL GRRM GEORGE. I, for one, take offense. I tried pointing out the rule gods, but you are deaf to reason. Much like Jon Snow, whose arrogance prevents him from taking the half a hundred warnings he had to save himself. Just like Caesar - if he had only read the letter of Artemidorus!

I was trying to be kind and educate you on posting manners. I wonder what would happen to this site if everyone posted with such familiarity.

My point - I have a son George. I will assume whenever George is referenced, it is a reference to my son - a brilliant writer in how own right, mired in the world of James Joyce's Ulysses and Finnigan's Wake. I nursed him on "maticulous meanness', and even he calls Stephan Daedalus by his last name, not Stevie boy. :bang:

[MrsManderly]

Question to Lummel and others ascribing to the "Jon planned it himself" theory:

If I understand your theory correctly, Jon's plan was to give up his human body and live the rest of his days in Ghost?

If so, this would be an effective way of freeing Jon from his NW wovs, but in every other way it seems like an extremely supoptimal way to go. Becoming a direwolf for good has some fundamental and obvious drawbacks: (a) fierce as a direwolf is, it can't communicate with humans nor will it be recognised as a leader (of any organisation other than something like Nymeria's wolf pack), so becoming Ghost seems hardly the way to achieve Jon's supposed ambitions of defeating Ramsay/retaking Winterfell etc; and (b ) as we've learned from Orrell and Varamyr, while traces of a human can survive indefinitely within an animal, over time they become "diluted" and overtaken by the animal, only a vague memory of the human's likes and dislikes remaining (granted, Jon might not know this).

Or are you saying that Jon's plan was to be "warehoused" in Ghost temporarily, and then "reborn" into his old body or some other body for that matter. This I guess would address the drawbacks noted above, but making it happen would depend on magical "jiggery pokery", presumably to be performed by Mel, which seems very out of character for Jon IMO. Ever since he met Mel, Jon exhibited an (IMO healthy) mistrust of her personally and of her magic and R'lhor in general. So it seems very odd to me that he would gamble all on the Red God's kiss of life or whatever magical reviving method. No?

I'm not saying I have any better idea of what plot, if any, is behind the Ides of Marsh (and there are several other vigorously argued threads on this), but I struggle to see how the "Jon planned it" theory stacks up.

Happy to be informed otherwise!