AGoT Reread: Direwolves, Dragons [eggs], Momont’s Raven, and Cats, Oh My! Pets or Providence?

[evita mgfs]

Okay, I'm about to read Jon's chapter (I'm a little behind, sorry...) and post after, but since this page is humongous, I'd rather post on the next one since this will be the last one for this page :laugh: I'll be back.

:bowdown: :bowdown: LITTLE WING: Then I will do my best to get us to page 14 with this post to you. I had no idea you loved Falcor - he reminds me of Ghost when I read the novels - I always thought of Falcor as Ghost, even before I saw HBO's version - and I do realize that Ghost is a direwolf whereas Falcor looks more like one of my golden retrievers.

Also - were you knocked off Westeros.org? it was like for at least 12 hours - maybe more! I hate it when that happens! :blushing:

Here's a picture of my littlest direwolf Bella that my son took while she waited at the fence: http://ladyevyta.tumblr.com/post/35693293654/bella-at-the-fence-bella-on-the-loveseat

Now - this better take us to 14!

I'll add another picture just in case! This is my rescue golden Harely:

http://ladyevyta.tumblr.com/post/35730851449

Now - if we are not on 14, I am at a loss! :dunno:

:grouphug: :love:

[Little Wing]

Hah, yes, I love Falcor and the Never Ending Story... hm, Jon = Atreyu?

Anyway, Jon's chapter - starts with pointing out Jon's bastard status and what this means to him. At first he's smug about it having it's perks but as the chapter continues and the wine does its bit (in vino veritas) we see how much he's hurt by the injustice of it all, especially, as Evita pointed out, that even Theon can sit with the Royals...poor Jon... his own perceptiveness brings him pain and first hand knowledge on life not being fair.

I don't know if there's any significance in Jon drinking summer wine in his very first chapter, if there's foreshadowing of maybe him doing the same in his last chapter but with his siblings/cousins sitting with him at the same table? I'd sure like that... (I know, I know, the end will be bitter sweet, but the Starks have had it bitter for a while now, so their ending could be more on the sweet side, thank you very much!) Also, we see that Jon is rather a summer child as well, a bit idealistic and driven by dreams more than the wisdom that comes with experience (Benjen), he really is oblivious about the Night's Watch and women/girls in general. He seems to see the Night's Watch as his only way out of a bleak future and therefore rationalizes/glamorizes it, as many would in his shoes, the poor kid. But, it may be seen as circumstances making him a brother of the Watch...we could question his true desire to be in the Watch, especially later on - does he linger only to do his duty? Was he fed up with the whole LC business in the end? Will being free of the Watch and his vows be a release for him? hmmm...

And as for girls - we see how Robb is as inexperienced when it comes to girls as Jon is - he grins like a fool... he never knew girls or romance, courting or whatever before he was thrown into war and King in the North business. Jayne was a mistake, but he really, literally didn't know better, poor guy :crying:

A small observation: of all the choice food from the table Benjen takes an onion... Why is that? What symbolism? Could it just be a window into how simple, ascetic and harsh life at the Wall is? And how one needs to eat onions when it's cold not to get the cold? :lol: But joking aside, I do think it's a tiny bit of symbolism there about the austerity and harshness of life at the Wall. If Jon's version of the wall at the moment were true, Benjen would pick up a lemon cake...

Oh, and the way Jon got up from the table with a "With your permission" to save his pride is exactly how the dog Ghost frightened away snapped at him before leaving to save its pride... Jon is still a summer child here, as said before, Ghost is his future self here already, as we will see Jon stand his ground as well with the old goons at the wall (Marsh I'm looking at you!) But for now, he has yet to learn ^_^

Also, major foreshadowing:

Otherwise the castle was dark and deserted. Jon had seen an abandoned holdfast once, a drear place where nothing moved but the wind and the stones kept silent about whatever people had lived there. Winterfell reminded him of that tonight.

Jon likens Winterfell to an abandoned holdfast :crying: and the sentry holding watch is him in a few months' time, as it's been suggested earlier!

Also, the foreshadowing moments of old - Tyrion seeing more of the North in Jon than in other Stark kids and Jon in turn seeing Tyrion's kingly shadow fall behind him...

ETA: Bella and Harly are adorable!!! :wub:

[evita mgfs]

Hah, yes, I love Falcor and the Never Ending Story... hm, Jon = Atreyu?

Anyway, Jon's chapter - starts with pointing out Jon's bastard status and what this means to him. At first he's smug about it having it's perks but as the chapter continues and the wine does its bit (in vino veritas) we see how much he's hurt by the injustice of it all, especially, as Evita pointed out, that even Theon can sit with the Royals...poor Jon... his own perceptiveness brings him pain and first hand knowledge on life not being fair.

I don't know if there's any significance in Jon drinking summer wine in his very first chapter, if there's foreshadowing of maybe him doing the same in his last chapter but with his siblings/cousins sitting with him at the same table? I'd sure like that... (I know, I know, the end will be bitter sweet, but the Starks have had it bitter for a while now, so their ending could be more on the sweet side, thank you very much!) Also, we see that Jon is rather a summer child as well, a bit idealistic and driven by dreams more than the wisdom that comes with experience (Benjen), he really is oblivious about the Night's Watch and women/girls in general. He seems to see the Night's Watch as his only way out of a bleak future and therefore rationalizes/glamorizes it, as many would in his shoes, the poor kid. But, it may be seen as circumstances making him a brother of the Watch...we could question his true desire to be in the Watch, especially later on - does he linger only to do his duty? Was he fed up with the whole LC business in the end? Will being free of the Watch and his vows be a release for him? hmmm...

And as for girls - we see how Robb is as inexperienced when it comes to girls as Jon is - he grins like a fool... he never knew girls or romance, courting or whatever before he was thrown into war and King in the North business. Jayne was a mistake, but he really, literally didn't know better, poor guy :crying:

A small observation: of all the choice food from the table Benjen takes an onion... Why is that? What symbolism? Could it just be a window into how simple, ascetic and harsh life at the Wall is? And how one needs to eat onions when it's cold not to get the cold? :lol: But joking aside, I do think it's a tiny bit of symbolism there about the austerity and harshness of life at the Wall. If Jon's version of the wall at the moment were true, Benjen would pick up a lemon cake...

Oh, and the way Jon got up from the table with a "With your permission" to save his pride is exactly how the dog Ghost frightened away snapped at him before leaving to save its pride... Jon is still a summer child here, as said before, Ghost is his future self here already, as we will see Jon stand his ground as well with the old goons at the wall (Marsh I'm looking at you!) But for now, he has yet to learn ^_^

Also, major foreshadowing:

Jon likens Winterfell to an abandoned holdfast :crying: and the sentry holding watch is him in a few months' time, as it's been suggested earlier!

Also, the foreshadowing moments of old - Tyrion seeing more of the North in Jon than in other Stark kids and Jon in turn seeing Tyrion's kingly shadow fall behind him...

ETA: Bella and Harly are adorable!!! :wub:

:bowdown: :bowdown: LITTLE WING: Thank you for the beautifully composed analysis. [it was well worth the wait!] I certainly do hope the summer wine is a foreshadowing of a future “summer” for Jon and the Starks. I am hopeful with Bran married to both a weirwood tree and a direwolf: all could not be for not now that our boy is a “god” – or greenseer. Either way, Bran is in a place where he can actually help his bastard brother, for Jon loved all his siblings fiercely, as Bran will learn if he visits the past and see Jon’s joy when he learns that Bran will LIVE!! [All those little scenarios seem important now with Bran and his 1000 eyes and one!]

But in reviewing Cat’s POV II for tomorrow, her hatred for Jon is palpable. I suppose we may discuss then WHY Ned did not tell Cat the TRUTH! Oh, I know all the reasonable answers – but at that moment, why not tell Cat the truth? I am sure she could have borne this “bastard” if she knew it was Lyanna’s get and not Ned’s? And when would the time have been any better? How could her learning the truth had changed the future?

I am assuming that Jon needed this life lesson of personal sacrifice to prepare him for even more hardship in the future – because I believe that when Jon does learn the truth, he will go through a period of mourning when he realizes that Ned is not his true father. However, if a Targ such as BR, along with Bran and Ghost, are intermediaries, then mayhap the news will not be as devastating as I think.

Maybe, as in Breaking Dawn 2 with Edward and Bella, and even Star Trek with Mr. Spock and Kirk, Bran may be able to “mind meld” with Jon and show him through his great sight the day of Jon’s birth and the promise Ned made to his sister? I can dream, can’t I? :love:

Here's Moses at the fence, just for fun! We're on page 14!!

http://ladyevyta.tumblr.com/post/36018510046/moses-at-the-fence

He thinks he's a star after the BD2 premiere. He was much loved by the crowds of fans! He even waits at the door at 6 pm, thinking "It is theatre time!" :cheers:

[evita mgfs]

7 CATELYN POV II / GAME OF THRONES CHAPTER 7 OVERALL

SUMMARY IN ONE SENTENCE: In Cat’s second POV chapter, we learn that she and Ned “do it” with some regularity, and that Ned is fond of opening the window to get air [which is important to know because Jon does the same at the Wall – to let Mormont’s raven in and out – even on the day of Ides of Marsh, Jon let “said window” OPEN, which is how, IMO, Ghost escapes – along with the bird – when the “CAESARING” ensues], and we learn that Maester Luwin has received a mysterious message addressed for Lady Catelyn’s eyes only; this gift sets into motion much subterfuge, espionage, and ill-luck for many, even a short Lannister.

COMMENTARY:

As most teachers do, we change up our presentation format to keep the students interested and to keep them on ‘their toes’. To save you from reading another rambling Evita discourse, this will be short and sweet and address only parts of the POV I find “mysterious”.

“Of all the rooms in Winterfell’s Great Keep, Catelyn’s bedchambers were the hottest. She seldom had to light a fire. The castle had been built over natural hot springs and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man’s body, driving the chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing. Open pools smoked day and night in a dozen small courtyards. That was a little thing, in summer; in winter, it was the difference between life and death” (58).

• First sentences, and even paragraphs, often reveal important information. What I find in this group of sentences is that Catelyn has a home away from home, where Ned has made certain she has the warmest rooms for her own in the Great Keep, so that she has some of the warmth she holds dear from her home in Riverrun.
  
• To add to a remark The Pack Survives made regarding the “crypts” breathing cold air, I wish to draw attention to the personification of WF itself – it is like a human body, the hot springs feeding the blood that pumps through a human’s body. Thus, WF itself becomes a “character” in and of itself in Martin’s work, as The Pack Survives brought to mind in her awesome analysis of the “crypts”.
  

“Catelyn’s bath was always hot and steaming, and her walls warm to the touch. The warmth reminded her of Riverrun, of days in the sun with Lysa and Edmure, but Ned could never abide the heat. The Starks were made for the cold, he would tell her, and she would laugh and tell him in that case they had certainly built their castle in the wrong place” (58).

• I know Cat is no Dragon, but her hot baths bring to mind Dany and her hot baths.
  
• Cat has fond memories of her childhood, and of her sister and brother. [To me, both are ‘undeserving of Cat’s warm thoughts – I feel that both “let her down” in the end.]
  

“So when they had finished, Ned rolled off and climbed from her bed, as he had a thousand times before. He crossed the room, pulled back the heavy tapestries, and threw open the high narrow windows one by one, letting in the night air into the chamber” (58-59)

“The wind swirled around him as he stood facing the dark, naked and empty-handed. Catelyn pulled the furs to her chin and watched him. He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable, like the youth she had wed in the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone” (59).

• Ned is of the north, and the wind kissing his bare skin is like an air bath, or even a mystic communion with the nature that is the Starks.
  
• Note that the wind gives Cat a chill – for she is of the south.
  
• The chill wind announces the arrival of “chilled” events to come.
  
• The reference to Ned’s empty hand suggests his new role as “Hand of the King” – but it also reminds me of Fitzgerald’s Gatsby, whom we first meet in Chapter 1 of The Great Gatsby, standing on his property, his hand outstretched to a point across the Courtesy Bay, trembling in the dark, reaching for his unattainable dream, the green light flashing at the end of Daisy Buchanan’s dock. Is Ned’s dream of his future as “Hand of the King” any more attainable than Gatsby’s dream of Daisy Fey and recapturing the past? Is Ned not hoping to recapture the past as well – being joined again with his pal Robert Baratheon?
  
• What follows is the scene of Nick first spying Jay Gatsby, FYI:
  

“The silhouette of a moving cat wavered across the moonlight, and turning my head to watch it, I saw that I was not alone — fifty feet away a figure had emerged from the shadow of my neighbor’s mansion and was standing with his hands in his pockets regarding the silver pepper of the stars. Something in his leisurely movements and the secure position of his feet upon the lawn suggested that it was Mr. Gatsby himself, come out to determine what share was his of our local heavens.

I decided to call to him. Miss Baker had mentioned him at dinner, and that would do for an introduction. But I didn’t call to him, for he gave a sudden intimation that he was content to be alone — he stretched out his arms toward the dark water in a curious way, and, far as I was from him, I could have sworn he was trembling. Involuntarily I glanced seaward — and distinguished nothing except a single green light, minute and far away, that might have been the end of a dock. When I looked once more for Gatsby he had vanished, and I was alone again in the unquiet darkness.”

“Her loins still ached from the urgency of his lovemaking. It was a good ache. She could feel his seed within her. She prayed that it might quicken there. It had been three years since Rickon. She was not too old. She could give him another son” (59).

• Ned’s urgency suggests that he has something weighing on his mind – and he seeks comfort in this lovemaking with the woman he loves, for soon he fears he may not be able to do so with the distance that will separate them. I propose that Ned has already realized that he cannot refuse his king, even before Cat argues that Ned take the office bestowed upon him by Robert.
  

Catelyn argues convincingly the necessity of Ned taking the King’s “honors” seriously, reminding Ned that Robert even offers up his own first born son in marriage to their eleven-year-old daughter Sansa. Ned scoffs, but Cat says that she herself was twelve when her father promised her in marriage to his older brother Brandon. Ned has a bitter twist to his mouth recalling that all that he has, his wife, WF, everything – was meant for Brandon, and that Brandon was born to be Hand to the King and father of queens – not Ned.

“Perhaps not . . . but Brandon is dead, the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not.”

“Ned turned away from her, back to the night. He stood staring in out the darkness, watching the moon and the stars perhaps, or perhaps the sentries on the wall” (60).

Maester Luwin enters with a dire message and “gift” for Cat, and I have heard argued on various threads “who” delivered this little package that’s contents sound SO LITTLEFINGER. [Lysa Tully is not bright enough to think of a LENS and what it symbolizes to send one in the first place! IMO]

So I propose that LF, with all his Braavosi connections, plus the fact that he is the one who suggests to the king’s small council to hire a Faceless Mam to kill Khaleesi and her unborn child, sent a FM to deliver the message to ML in WF. Moreover, to bolster MY theory, observe what Maester Luwin says,

“There was no rider, my lord. Only a carved wooden box, left on a table in my observatory while I napped. My servants saw no one . . . (61).

• IMO, Martin leaves his readers a little clue as to who delivered this message so sneakily, even while ML slept. Maybe even Jaqen H’ghar? In a disguise as one of the freeriders who followed the king’s entourage to WF? [After all, we find out later even Mance Rayder made it in unnoticed to observe the festivities. Why not Jaqen H’ghar? He could have scoped out the Stark children then, even Arya, which might explain how later on he recognizes her and calls her Arya of House Stark??]
  
• I mentioned earlier Gatsby’s “trembling” arms as he reaches for Daisy’s dock; well, notice that as Cat takes the message from her sister Lysa, her hands tremble as well: “She reached out and took the letter in trembling hands” (61). It also seems ironic that Lysa writes her note to Cat in a secret language from their past as children at Riverrun, which fits well with Gatsby who desires to “repeat the past” – in this chapter, do we not have many references to “what if” the past had been different? Ned even recalling how Winterfell and Cat were meant for his older brother Brandon and not him. What if the past had played out differently for Ned and Brandon and Cat? [i know for a fact Martin is a Gatsby fan – for he said in an interview in Rolling Stone magazine, “ I never saw Gatsby’s parties, but they seem more vivid to me than things that I actually lived”.]
  

“Lysa is impulsive, yes, but this message was carefully planned, cleverly hidden. She knew it meant death if her letter fell into the wrong hands. To risk so much, she must have had more than mere suspicion.” Catelyn looked to her husband. “Now we truly have no choice. You must be Robert’s Hand’ (63).

• The “carefully” and “cleverly” adverbs sure sound like Little Finger to me!
  

“She saw at once that Ned had reached a very different conclusion. “The only truths I know are here. The south is a nest of adders I would do better to avoid” (63).

• Ned speaks with “unconscious irony”? Not – he is spot on! He already perceives what will await him in King’s Landing.
  

Then Maester Luwin has to pipe in his two cents: “ The Hand of the King has great power, my lord. Power to find the truth of Lord Arryn’s death, to bring his killers to the king’s justice. Power to protect Lady Arryn and her son, if the worst be true” (63).

• Well, that does it! Just mention helpless women and children, and Ned’s fate is sealed. For Ned is a “true knight” with his code of honor – and he is all about protecting the children!
  

“The Others take the both of you,” Ned muttered darkly. He turned away from them and went to the window. She did not speak, nor did the master. They waited, quiet, while Eddard Stark said a silent farewell to th home he loved. When he turned away from the window at last, his voice was tired and full of melancholy, and moisture glistened faintly in the corners of his eyes. “My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king. He never came home” (63).

• Our man who “doesn’t believe in signs” seems mighty superstitious to me – and on point as well – for he sees his own fate as mirroring that of his father’s.
  

“Catelyn, you shall stay here in Winterfell.”

His words were like an icy draft through her heart” (63).

• There’s that ‘icy draft” that Ned let in through the window symbolically returning her to chill Cat’s heart.
  

“You must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert’s errands. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell” (63).

• There are the words – oh so important – and we are just learning as to what Ned might mean by them.
  

“Robb is fourteen. Soon enough, he will be a man full grown. He must learn to rule, and I will not be here for him. Make him part of your councils. He must be ready when his time comes.”

“Gods will, not for many years,” Maester Luwin murmured.

“Maester Luwin, I trust you as I would my own blood. Give my wife your voice in all things great and small. Teach my son the things he needs to know. Winter is coming” (63-64).

• Maester Luwin speaks with unconscious irony, for Robb’s time will come too soon.
  
• Ned leaves Luwin much responsibility, and then those infamous words: WINTER IS COMING!.
  

Ned makes all the decisions regarding the children, deciding to take Bran, Arya, and Sansa with him, leaving Catelyn with Rickon and Robb. The only stickler is JON SNOW. What to do with the bastard boy?

“Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with the knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of her husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence” (65).

• We see the depth of Cat’s resentment for Jon – the fact that Ned fathers a bastard is palatable, but not for Ned to bring Jon to WF and raise him with her trueborn children and even call him “son”.
  
• Ned is NOT LIKE OTHER MEN. Is this not why Cat loves him?
  

“That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’ Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Athur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face” (65).

• Any hint of Jon’s parentage is important – and in these words we learn that Ned defeated Arthur Dayne in one on one combat and returned the Sword of the Morning, or so his men report.
  

“Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love on. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out if sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. “Jon must go,” she said now” (66).

• More Cat hate for Jon – she resents that Ned loved the mother of Jon fiercely.
  
• Cat resents that Jon looks more like Ned than her children.
  
• Cat resents that Jon lives under her nose and in her line of sight day in and day out.
  

“He cannot stay here . . . He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.” It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

The look Ned gave her was anguished. “You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name . . . you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned.”

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband’s eyes. “They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself.”

“And none if them has ever been seen at court!” Ned blazed. “The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel? He is only a boy. He-“

His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in” (66).

• I had to include this argument for we see just how angry Ned gets regarding Jon – as well as how adamant and cruel Cat is regarding Jon.
  

Maester Luwin saves the day by mentioning an alternative: send Jon to the Night’s Watch where he can rise high and earn some honor.

“Ned turned away from them to gaze out the window, his long face silent and thoughtful. Finally he sighed, and turned back. “Very well . . . “

Ned plans to tell Jon after he speaks with his brother Benjen, but that is as conversation we never hear about, sadly.

And in finality, Ned turning back and forth to the window is SO GATSBY – just like the fate of Jay Gatsby, Ned Stark and his dreams of a future will ultimately destroy him!

[Little Wing]

Great work, Evita!

Wouldn't it be cool if Jaqen was really the one hired to deliver the package that started it all! In another thread, there was an idea put forward by butterbumps! that mayhaps Jaqen was going to the Night's Watch as a hired assassin to make off with Ned (who was supposed to take the black after his "confession") - maybe LF or Varys later in KL found yet another use for Jaqen and that's how he wound up going to the Wall with Yoren's marry band... hm...interesting, indeed.

As for this chapter - I loved how Winterfell is likened to a living organism, as it certainly is no ordinary castle - as The Pack already noticed earlier. It seems to me that Winterfell answers only to Starks and shakes off anyone else who doesn't belong. We see Ned feeling almost an organic bond to this castle, his family and his lands - they are all connected, and as he is part of Winterfell, so is Winterfell part of him -- it's oh so Scarlett O'Harra with her love and connection to the red earth of Tara to me, not to mention that all of the Stark children feel this longing and miss Winterfell greatly later on (Arya as soon as reaching KL, Sansa at the Eyrie...)

I agree on Cat and Dany sharing this love for hot baths is interesing. it's as if Ned is ice and Cat is fire here. They are so different, she needs warmth - he needs cold, they were not meant to be, as Ned himself points out, but found love anyway. Also, does anyone else get a bit of a Lady Macbeth vibe from Cat in this chapter? Cat is not like her, but this scene certainly alludes to the scene from the beginning of Macbeth... also, Lady Macbeth constantly saw blood on her hands, even when her hands were clean, and Cat will certainly have blood on her hands... :crying:

As for Ned being superstitious... I don't know. Cat's misinterpretation of the direwolf/stag scene and how much fear she derived from her belief is superstition to me because she inferred a concrete consequence out of it, whereas Ned just feels foreboding vaguely and saying that your father died when he went South isn't really being superstitious as much as untrusting, in my opinion, of course. Ned is wise in a quiet sort of way, we see how his foreboding was spot on, not to mention his view on KL... I dunno, wouldn't call him superstitious, really.

"A lens is an instrument to help us see", said Maester Luwin and this in turn made me think how Ned and Cat see differently the same situation, namely the office of the Hand. Cat sees opportunity, obligation and honor, while Ned sees trouble, he doubts and frets. We all see through our own, special lens...

About his reaction upon Cat wanting to know about Jon's mother, the one time he frightened Cat - I'm thinking he probably didn't want to be asked anything about Jon, because he would then have to lie, and people who knew him well would probably read him like a book (Cat would for sure) and see that he's lying and ask more questions in turn, and maybe not to him personally... So, in order to avoid all that mess in the first place, he made sure he was never asked about Jon again. And you make sure that no one asks you something again by going all psycho on them about it, of course :cool4:

ETA: Um, on the last thing you said, Evita, about Ned dreaming of his future like Gatsby - I get the feeling he frets his future more than he dreams of it... he certainly isn't looking forward to being Hand, he tried his very best to avoid it... even the letter on its own wasn't enough, Cat and Maester Luwin had to coax him into submission. He's devastated that he has to leave Winterfell, I think. The way he looks out of the window all the time is to hide his emotions and have a moment to think on his own - looking onto his lands may have a soothing effect, it's what he knows and loves, maybe even more than Cat, since it's her he's turning his back to... hm...

[evita mgfs]

Great work, Evita!

Wouldn't it be cool if Jaqen was really the one hired to deliver the package that started it all! In another thread, there was an idea put forward by butterbumps! that mayhaps Jaqen was going to the Night's Watch as a hired assassin to make off with Ned (who was supposed to take the black after his "confession") - maybe LF or Varys later in KL found yet another use for Jaqen and that's how he wound up going to the Wall with Yoren's marry band... hm...interesting, indeed.

As for this chapter - I loved how Winterfell is likened to a living organism, as it certainly is no ordinary castle - as The Pack already noticed earlier. It seems to me that Winterfell answers only to Starks and shakes off anyone else who doesn't belong. We see Ned feeling almost an organic bond to this castle, his family and his lands - they are all connected, and as he is part of Winterfell, so is Winterfell part of him -- it's oh so Scarlett O'Harra with her love and connection to the red earth of Tara to me, not to mention that all of the Stark children feel this longing and miss Winterfell greatly later on (Arya as soon as reaching KL, Sansa at the Eyrie...)

I agree on Cat and Dany sharing this love for hot baths is interesing. it's as if Ned is ice and Cat is fire here. They are so different, she needs warmth - he needs cold, they were not meant to be, as Ned himself points out, but found love anyway. Also, does anyone else get a bit of a Lady Macbeth vibe from Cat in this chapter? Cat is not like her, but this scene certainly alludes to the scene from the beginning of Macbeth... also, Lady Macbeth constantly saw blood on her hands, even when her hands were clean, and Cat will certainly have blood on her hands... :crying:

As for Ned being superstitious... I don't know. Cat's misinterpretation of the direwolf/stag scene and how much fear she derived from her belief is superstition to me because she inferred a concrete consequence out of it, whereas Ned just feels foreboding vaguely and saying that your father died when he went South isn't really being superstitious as much as untrusting, in my opinion, of course. Ned is wise in a quiet sort of way, we see how his foreboding was spot on, not to mention his view on KL... I dunno, wouldn't call him superstitious, really.

"A lens is an instrument to help us see", said Maester Luwin and this in turn made me think how Ned and Cat see differently the same situation, namely the office of the Hand. Cat sees opportunity, obligation and honor, while Ned sees trouble, he doubts and frets. We all see through our own, special lens...

About his reaction upon Cat wanting to know about Jon's mother, the one time he frightened Cat - I'm thinking he probably didn't want to be asked anything about Jon, because he would then have to lie, and people who knew him well would probably read him like a book (Cat would for sure) and see that he's lying and ask more questions in turn, and maybe not to him personally... So, in order to avoid all that mess in the first place, he made sure he was never asked about Jon again. And you make sure that no one asks you something again by going all psycho on them about it, of course :cool4:

ETA: Um, on the last thing you said, Evita, about Ned dreaming of his future like Gatsby - I get the feeling he frets his future more than he dreams of it... he certainly isn't looking forward to being Hand, he tried his very best to avoid it... even the letter on its own wasn't enough, Cat and Maester Luwin had to coax him into submission. He's devastated that he has to leave Winterfell, I think. The way he looks out of the window all the time is to hide his emotions and have a moment to think on his own - looking onto his lands may have a soothing effect, it's what he knows and loves, maybe even more than Cat, since it's her he's turning his back to... hm...

:bowdown: :bowdown: LITTLE WING: Great Post! You say things so much better than I, and in your observations about Ned and Gatsby, you are absolutely on point and I agree – I was just excited and did not fully think through the “whole picture”. Like Ned, Gatsby fears his future much as he dreams of recapturing the past with Daisy. Gatsby even goes the round-about way of having Nick Carraway host Gatsby and Daisy’s first reunion meeting in his home across from Gatsby’s palatial mansion. Plus, he finagles Nick into getting Daisy to one of his lavish parties so that he can show off his money and his fake friends. Gatsby is not confident at all and fears rejection, which is why his arms tremble.

Where I was focusing was on that Ned and Robert MIGHT “recapture” their old comradeship that they once shared in battle and as boys at the Eyrie. Those times Ned romanticized, just as Cat has good memories of Lysa and Edmure that she romanticizes– the good part of the past is what Ned may wish to recapture. But I agree that he is filled with apprehension about his role as Hand of the King.

Moreover, you may have noticed I am treating Cat “gently” – I am trying not to paint her as I truly feel, but I am trying very hard to be an objective observer – which is difficult to do. I am trying to see some good in her, but her treatment of Jon is hard for me to swallow. As a teacher who was by profession required to work with challenging students other teachers despised and refused to have sit in their classes, I became the “go to” teacher who gladly took all the troublesome lot, who seemed to thrive in my courses because I remained objective and did not judge them by their families’ status quo, or their association with drugs, alcohol, sexual persuasion, and the like. Even if a student was bad news, I usually found something in him or her endearing. Jon Snow doesn’t even seem a difficult child to love – and if Cat could not, after fifteen years, have softened toward the bastard boy, then IMO she has some serious maternal flaws – EVEN THOUGH I do understand about the view of bastardy in the culture of Westeros.

For a mother to rear her own children day by day, and with Jon Snow being such an integral part of the lives of the Starks, it seems to me that Cat had hardened herself ritualistically so that she would NEVER err and find herself feeling sympathy and compassion for Jon Snow. Does that make sense? Maybe I am using a poor analogy. I just think any mother exposed to Jon Snow as a child would have to have developed some warm feelings toward him, especially because he is so deep and reflective and perceptive. I mean, Cat had to try really hard not to like him, especially if Ned loved him as fiercely as Cat says he does, and especially if Jon grew to look more and more like Ned, the very man she claims to love.

I like your idea that Cat is not often a reliable narrator – especially when she says that her husband does not believe in signs. I did not know what word to use to describe how Ned felt – I chose superstitious because I could not think of anything better at the time. As always, you say things much clearer than I do. [You sort through the BS of my thoughts and get to the point!]

Also, when Ned looks out into the darkness, your idea that he is hiding his emotions is spot-on. When Gatsby looks out across the bay with his arms stretched outward, he at least has a reason to hope – for he sees a green light, and green means GO! All that meets Ned is the darkness, although I like to think that he, like Gatsby, looks to the sky “to determine what share was his of our local heavens”. [i like that line – it gives me chills!]

I also like the Lady MacBeth comparison with Cat. :agree: And what has she done to make her feel guilty? I wonder if she feels any pangs of remorse for her cruelties waged against Jon? Especially since Jon always loved his siblings as fiercely as Ned loved him? [Would you not find virtue in such a person? Not! I guess!]

[Little Wing]

Where I was focusing was on that Ned and Robert MIGHT “recapture” their old comradeship that they once shared in battle and as boys at the Eyrie. Those times Ned romanticized, just as Cat has good memories of Lysa and Edmure that she romanticizes– the good part of the past is what Ned may wish to recapture. But I agree that he is filled with apprehension about his role as Hand of the King.

Oh, I agree - this certainly rings Gatsby...

About Cat's fear and resentment of Jon - as a teacher myself (only not as experienced as you) I find it hard to believe that after a time of not being able to set eyes on him she didn't gradually learn to see him for what he is - a sullen, quiet boy who wants to be seen and loved for what he is... For what it's worth, it certainly makes her an intriguing character, and more interesting to read about... I think it goes back to what Ice Turtle said, how Cat's governed by fear. The fear that her children may be somehow in danger from Jon is what kept her guard up for oh so long. She's a tragic character, strong and reasonable on the one hand but filled with fear and apprehension on the other. I see myself in her sometimes, when I over-think something and get myself all worked up over something that hasn't even happened yet! About her feeling guilt over the whole Jon issue... it's probably a whole jungle of mixed feelings, and not happy feelings for sure, but, yeah, guilt may very well be one of those feelings, maybe unconsciously? She is a multilayered character, so it wouldn't surprise me that deep down, unwittingly, there's some guilt too.

[evita mgfs]

Oh, I agree - this certainly rings Gatsby...

About Cat's fear and resentment of Jon - as a teacher myself (only not as experienced as you) I find it hard to believe that after a time of not being able to set eyes on him she didn't gradually learn to see him for what he is - a sullen, quiet boy who wants to be seen and loved for what he is... For what it's worth, it certainly makes her an intriguing character, and more interesting to read about... I think it goes back to what Ice Turtle said, how Cat's governed by fear. The fear that her children may be somehow in danger from Jon is what kept her guard up for oh so long. She's a tragic character, strong and reasonable on the one hand but filled with fear and apprehension on the other. I see myself in her sometimes, when I over-think something and get myself all worked up over something that hasn't even happened yet! About her feeling guilt over the whole Jon issue... it's probably a whole jungle of mixed feelings, and not happy feelings for sure, but, yeah, guilt may very well be one of those feelings, maybe unconsciously? She is a multilayered character, so it wouldn't surprise me that deep down, unwittingly, there's some guilt too.

:bowdown: :bowdown: LITTLE WING: What a nice tribute to Cat! Another great post! :cheers: I agree as well with the "fear" - and people act strangely when they are afraid.

Here's another squirrel with a hat for you! A nurse squirrel - my mom just sent him! He's a cuty! http://ladyevyta.tumblr.com/post/36105644551/nurse-sqirrel

[Florina Laufeyson]

I was so gonna like, make a bunch of novel posts yesterday but the site went "NOPE"

And now...i forgotten all the stuff i was gonna post. *sads*

Anyway i want to post a bit about this one:

“Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out if sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse.

Cat's fears are in full effect here. Ned got really angry when she pushed the point about who Jon's mother was. The wolf's fury. Catelyn is a Tully by birth and their sigil is indeed a fish. A leaping trout. A proud creature but also very fearful. Not to mention tasty. lolz Cat muses how she could forgive a dozen bastards as long as they were out of sight. Out of sight, out of mind. (This sort of mentality is actually present in one of her children. :P) But Jon is always present. He resembles Ned even more than the true born kids. (Save Arya) Strange how Ghost doesnt resemble the other wolves, huh? ;) But Cat feels a great hurt and bitterness over the fact that Jon looks more the wolf than anything. She dwells on who the woman was who bore Jon. "Ned must have loved her very much." Ahahaha...If who i feel Jon's mother to be is true, yeah, Catelyn, Ned really did love her. But in an entirely different way.

Of course, theres no way for Catelyn to know that. She assumes the most logical thing. Whats interesting to note is the relationship between Catelyn and Ned. They DO love each other immensely despite it being an arranged marriage. That is very rare as we later see, and is a testament to who these people really are. Making the best of a situation and learning to see past a lot of things. Because of her love for Ned, its why she cant quite deal with the idea of Jon.

[evita mgfs]

I was so gonna like, make a bunch of novel posts yesterday but the site went "NOPE"

And now...i forgotten all the stuff i was gonna post. *sads*

Anyway i want to post a bit about this one:

Cat's fears are in full effect here. Ned got really angry when she pushed the point about who Jon's mother was. The wolf's fury. Catelyn is a Tully by birth and their sigil is indeed a fish. A leaping trout. A proud creature but also very fearful. Not to mention tasty. lolz Cat muses how she could forgive a dozen bastards as long as they were out of sight. Out of sight, out of mind. (This sort of mentality is actually present in one of her children. :P) But Jon is always present. He resembles Ned even more than the true born kids. (Save Arya) Strange how Ghost doesnt resemble the other wolves, huh? ;) But Cat feels a great hurt and bitterness over the fact that Jon looks more the wolf than anything. She dwells on who the woman was who bore Jon. "Ned must have loved her very much." Ahahaha...If who i feel Jon's mother to be is true, yeah, Catelyn, Ned really did love her. But in an entirely different way.

Of course, theres no way for Catelyn to know that. She assumes the most logical thing. Whats interesting to note is the relationship between Catelyn and Ned. They DO love each other immensely despite it being an arranged marriage. That is very rare as we later see, and is a testament to who these people really are. Making the best of a situation and learning to see past a lot of things. Because of her love for Ned, its why she cant quite deal with the idea of Jon.

:bowdown: :bowdown: FLORINA STARK: SUPER POST!!! :love: I can’t wait to read your posts for you make me bust a gut laughing! [Those tasty trout – and oh how right you are! Although my favorite is fresh deep-fried Lake Erie perch! My grandpa owned a fish house and restaurant, along with several fishing boats, along the Erie docks, so we grew up with perch every Friday! Yummy! But the ugh! Part was that grandpa always smelled a little fishy, if you know what I mean? And we hated going to visit him at the fish house where the men sat along this long metal table with gutters, fileting fish by the barrel so fast the knives were invisible in their hands! I hated the barrel where they threw the fish heads!! They all had their mouths opened, gaping at me with big dead eyes!!] Anyways, enough with fish – I guess I just went on one of those Martin tangents where he describes all the food served at table – mashed neeps and the like. Not that I would ever PRESUME to own an ounce of his genius!!!

I really, really loved your point about Jon looking like Ned – but his Ghost looks so markedly different from the other direwolves. I also noticed in a later chapter that The Pack Survives will be presenting that Ghost already has outgrown the other direwolves in size – so, Jon the outcast bastard SCORES big time with his all white wolf. Little Bran even envies that Jon thought of the name “Ghost”, and Bran had wished he could name his wolf Ghost even though his Summer is not even all white – so Bran idolizes his bastard brother, as does Arya, and these are just a few wonderful things I am learning on my reread: the connection Jon has with his siblings – he loved and respected all of them, and said never a word against a one of them – which is pretty good – take it from me! I have four sisters – and even since we are older, some of those old childhood jealousies and resentments still rear their ugly heads, especially around the holidays. I am ashamed to say that many a Christmas dinner erupted in some argument, no doubt fueled by too much alcohol consumption started way too early in the morning!! So what I am so artlessly trying to say is that the Stark kids seem to love each other truly, even Arya and Sansa. I look at their squabbles as chump change compared to some of the spats my sisters and I had when we were in junior high and high school – usually about boys, no less!

I am really starting to see that Ghost is a gift the gods sent for a special reason compounded by more complicated issues – if Jon is the son of L + R, well, it is “super” interesting if you take Ghost and compare him to certain Targs – like Bloodraven, who is albino with one red eye glowing like an ember and pale skin and white hair; as a matter of fact, all the Targs seem to have that “Ghost” –White hair, don’t they? And ole Drogon has the fiery red eyes, but the black skin, or the color a white skinned creature might be when burned by flame! I am speculating that Ghost is going to play some markedly special role in the next novel – and it better not be as a dead Ghost, either!

IMO, Ghost and Jon are so intrinsically connected that if one dies, the other may well follow soon after, as oft happens with old, married couples, one spouse passes then soon after the next, as if one does not wish to go on without the other. I know my gram did not outlive my gramps for even a year, and my hubbie’s parents died within months of one another. Maybe that is just my freaky family – even though we fight like cats and dogs on holidays, we always kiss and make up and truly love one another, and if it weren’t for the Christmas cheer, we may not fight at all! :cheers:

I also like the point you made regarding Cat’s hate for Jon stemming from the fact that she loves Ned. I postulate that IF he had told Cat the truth, perhaps her animosity for Jon could have been averted; however, Ned’s code of honor probably forbid him from revealing the truth to Cat, and this MAY BE part of WHAT Ned PROMISED to Lyanna – not EVER to tell anyone the truth of Jon’s parents in order to protect him from the Stag and the Lions and the Targs and any other possible enemies who might feel he is better off dead. :frown5:

[Éadaoin]

I also like the point you made regarding Cat’s hate for Jon stemming from the fact that she loves Ned. I postulate that IF he had told Cat the truth, perhaps her animosity for Jon could have been averted; however, Ned’s code of honor probably forbid him from revealing the truth to Cat, and this MAY BE part of WHAT Ned PROMISED to Lyanna – not EVER to tell anyone the truth of Jon’s parents in order to protect him from the Stag and the Lions and the Targs and any other possible enemies who might feel he is better off dead. :frown5:

I don't doubt that Cat would have taken more kindly to Jon had she known the truth. In a sad way, however, Cat's coldness towards Jon protected him. To everyone else, there was no doubt as to who Jon was - Ned Stark's bastard son. If Cat had treated Jon more kindly, people might have become suspicious. A sad situation overall, and I feel for both Jon and Cat.

ETA: Florina, your new avatar frightens me! That, or I've had too much wine. Whatever happened to Ron Weasley?

[Florina Laufeyson]

Har. Im in a punchy mood, so bare with me! :P

You are definitely right when you say that Cat's coldness protected Jon if the theory is true. I really think Ned banked on that to be honest. Its just pretty unfortunate for everyone involved.

[evita mgfs]

I don't doubt that Cat would have taken more kindly to Jon had she known the truth. In a sad way, however, Cat's coldness towards Jon protected him. To everyone else, there was no doubt as to who Jon was - Ned Stark's bastard son. If Cat had treated Jon more kindly, people might have become suspicious. A sad situation overall, and I feel for both Jon and Cat.

ETA: Florina, your new avatar frightens me! That, or I've had too much wine. Whatever happened to Ron Weasley?

:bowdown: :bowdown: EADAOIN: You are absolutely right! And to me, this whole "mummer's farce" surrounding Jon's true parents showed a great deal of foresight and a good understanding of human nature, yes? Both Lyanna and Ned must have anticipated, to some degree, Cat's animosity borne of [ill-conceived] feelings of betrayal. How amazing that the parties could perceive how well their dissembling would work in the future? For as you say, Cat's attitude toward Jon certainly did serve to protect him. Do you think it was planned? Could Ned and Lyanna and Howland Reed have known, or could they have had an hint, of just how well such deception would play out?

I hope you can understand what I just said. I am agreeing with you whole-heartedly!! I just wonder out loud sometimes about "HOW WELL" the plan to disguise Jon's true parentage worked out for Ned and company in the long term.

[evita mgfs]

Har. Im in a punchy mood, so bare with me! :P

You are definitely right when you say that Cat's coldness protected Jon if the theory is true. I really think Ned banked on that to be honest. Its just pretty unfortunate for everyone involved.

FLORINA STARK: Punchy? Is that why you keep changing up your avatar? Where do you find these unique images - some of them even move - and scream - or nod their heads up and down and all around!

Since you are punchy, I send you a new squirrel picture - I sent the same picture to Little Wing too - a squirrel with a nurse hat! I just love these crazy squirrels! http://ladyevyta.tumblr.com/post/36105644551/nurse-sqirrel :cheers:

[Florina Laufeyson]

Squirrels! *squee*

Im just in a rather silly mood today.

Anyway, i dont think Lyanna really planned on that in the long term, but i do think Ned did. Tell everyone Jon's a bastard. Reveal to no one that he is not Ned's own kid and who the parents truly are. Not even to Cat. No slip up can be made lest it get back to those loyal to the Stag. Cat's behavior is totally normal for someone in her position and with the knowledge she has. She doesnt know the truth. If she did, and treated Jon as anything other than a bastard, suspicions would be raised among the folk of Winterfell. Let the rumors about Ashara Dayne continue. Lest the Stag's wroth come down upon the child whom the mother was so loved by said Stag.

[Alia of the knife]

Ned really out-LF Little Finger, and out-Varyied Varys.

Though what he did what inevitably cruel, it offered Cat plausible deniability, because had she known and kept it to herself no matter how much better she would have felt, terror would have replaced jealousy and betrayal as she wondered what would happen to her own children if the Berantheons found out about a Targaryen child in their midst.

Another "Dune" analogy, especially on the Father/Son Motif.

Would Rhaegar and Jons meeting go something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EnBsfKQM34&feature=related

[Florina Laufeyson]

Ned really out-LF Little Finger, and out-Varyied Varys.

Though what he did what inevitably cruel, it offered Cat plausible deniability, because had she known and kept it to herself no matter how much better she would have felt, terror would have replaced jealousy and betrayal as she wondered what would happen to her own children if the Berantheons found out about a Targaryen child in their midst.

Good point. I think thats one of the main reasons Ned was always found in the godswood. Perhaps he was praying to the Old Gods for forgiveness for the great lie he told Cat. And perhaps for if he had told her the truth, Cat would feel just as much conflict and pain.

[evita mgfs]

Ned really out-LF Little Finger, and out-Varyied Varys.

Though what he did what inevitably cruel, it offered Cat plausible deniability, because had she known and kept it to herself no matter how much better she would have felt, terror would have replaced jealousy and betrayal as she wondered what would happen to her own children if the Berantheons found out about a Targaryen child in their midst.

Another "Dune" analogy, especially on the Father/Son Motif.

Would Rhaegar and Jons meeting go something like this?

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

:bowdown: :bowdown:

ALIA OF THE KNIFE: Another great Dune analogy! I wrote a post to Little Wing about “mind melding” like Bella and Edward do in Breaking Dawn 2, and the way Spock does with the Treble [spelling? those little furry creatures that were such a hit] in Star Trek: I said that I hope that somehow BR, Bran, and Ghost can “take Jon” to those places that will reveal his true parentage, do a sort of "mind meld" so Jon can see through the 1000 eyes and one specific moments of his past: like the tournament where Rhaegar proclaims Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty by giving her the winter roses; like their precious moments together at the Tower of Joy; like Jon Snow’s birth and the promises Lyanna extracts from Ned; like Rhaegar and Robert fighting on the Trident; like a pivotal scene that will show Jon how deeply his parents loved him and yearned for his birth, and like maybe Rhaegar revealing that Jon is the Prince Who Was Promised.

I hope that makes sense. I really loved the video clip :cheers: – it looked like the Prophet was blind? Like Maester Aemon? Or like the Greek prophet Tiresias who could see the truth even without his eyes?

[evita mgfs]

Good point. I think thats one of the main reasons Ned was always found in the godswood. Perhaps he was praying to the Old Gods for forgiveness for the great lie he told Cat. And perhaps for if he had told her the truth, Cat would feel just as much conflict and pain.

:bowdown: :bowdown: FLORINA STARK: :agree: I agree! Ned sure spent a lot of time praying - all the children even knew about the time he spent in the godswood. Perhaps Bran will learn why his father spent so much time with the old gods when he is emotionally strong enough to objectively view his father through the tree - or through another means, for I think Bran has graduated to other vehicles of viewing since we last left him.

You and ALIA OF THE KNIFE made me see the anguish Ned ultimately spared his wife, and I am sure that he probably had a difficult time keeping his sister's confidences. I know I cannot even keep a Christmas present a secret! I always have to give it to my mom, or son, or hubbie BEFORE the big day because I am too excited to contain MYSELF for that long. I guess that is a rotten analogy to make regarding Ned keeping Jon's parents a secret from Cat and Jon both, but I guess I am in a punchy mood as well.

Now I am seeing Cat in a sympathetic light - not that I didn't before. I think I allowed some 'Cat Hate' threads impact my usual empathy, for when I first read the novels, I did feel great sympathy for her plight, especially when she has to endure the horrific news of Rickon and Bran's deaths, as well as Sansa and Arya's fates. It is no wonder her spirit comes back with Beric's kiss of fire - and it is no wonder her heart has turned to stone. Her last living vision was seeing her eldest babe slain before her eyes. Now, if I can conjure some sympathy for Lady Stoneheart, I will be on track, I suppose.

Sorry I jumped ahead again!! I am BAD!!! :ack:

[Éadaoin]

Now I am seeing Cat in a sympathetic light - not that I didn't before. I think I allowed some 'Cat Hate' threads impact my usual empathy, for when I first read the novels, I did feel great sympathy for her plight, especially when she has to endure the horrific news of Rickon and Bran's deaths, as well as Sansa and Arya's fates. It is no wonder her spirit comes back with Beric's kiss of fire - and it is no wonder her heart has turned to stone. Her last living vision was seeing her eldest babe slain before her eyes. Now, if I can conjure some sympathy for Lady Stoneheart, I will be on track, I suppose.

Sorry I jumped ahead again!! I am BAD!!! :ack:

I think Cat is definitely a sympathetic character - her flaws make her seem all the more human. There's a reason people generally can't relate to flawless characters. Who among us is flawless? To me she is deeply relatable, even though I am not a mother. She sometimes lets her fears get the better of her. Who hasn't been in such a situation?

There is an interesting quote in AGOT:

Sometimes she felt as though her heart had turned to stone...

I also find it difficult to relate to Stoneheart, although I pity her. She seems trapped in a whirlwind of rage and vengeance.

To bring the subject back to cats (kinda) does anyone else think it is sweet that both Arya and Sansa tried to choose their mother's name when picking a new alibi? And Arya sometimes reminds me of a cat, anyway. :D ETA: oops, definitely getting off topic/going too far ahead. Ignore this post, ya'll.