AGoT Reread: Direwolves, Dragons [eggs], Momont’s Raven, and Cats, Oh My! Pets or Providence?

[Dark Heart]

Have I bored and smother you with quotes? :P

Apologies if I have.

I'd love to hear your opinions about it.

:bowdown: DARK HEART: This is a frivolous comment: I LOVE YOUR AVATAR!!!!

[bTW/ thanks about the pix! Love those squirrels with hats! :o)

Thank you.

Lol, it's a frivolous avatar too. :lol:

Sephiroth was the bast warrior, he have a epic sword, silver hair, strange way of birth. The he went crazy, got delusions of godhood, got obsessed with fire, and he can summon a dragon.

So, I've decide to consider him a secret, medium jumping, Targaryen.

It works for me. :rofl:

Quick review of basic Mendelsson genetics using the sickle-cell trait.

The sickle cell trait produces crescent shaped red blood cells that help protect against malaria. If you have two people that have a dominant trait for normal red blood cells and a recessive trait for sickle cell, their children have the following...

25% will have dominant traits and no sickled cells and no protection against malaria.

50% will have the dominant and recessive traits. They will be protected against malaria

25% will only have the recessive trait. They will be protected from malaria, but the double dose of sickle celled red blood cells will lead to blood coagulation in small blood vessels and cause extreme pain because tissues don't receive oxygen. We call this sickle-cell anemia.

Thank you for the info. That is very interesting!

Why is that, i wonder? Why now did a direwolf, pregnant no less, wander down south of the Wall? Are the Others responsible for driving her down? Or was it something else?

There are five of them. Just as there are five Stark children. This begs the question i posted above: Could it have been something else that drove the she-wolf south of the Wall? Something other than the Others that is. My theory points to what we find out later about a crow with three eyes....

I think the Old Gods arranged it.

That they see all Stark kids as very important part of the upcoming fight for the Dawn.

And that they sent the pups to protect, guide and prepare the kids for it.

But then I'm prone to seeing OG everywhere. ;)

We then see that the men and Ned want to put down the pups. Robb and Bran protest in earnest. Bran especially. Jon then pipes up talking about how the pups correspond with the sigil of House Stark and the number of pups and their respective genders.

Jon deliberately leaves himself out of this equation. Bran notes how this is a bit tough to hear since he regards Jon as a real brother, but knows his place. Jon stands outside of House Stark.

Driving the point home....only to find....

An albino pup who may have been "driven away."

Hmmm yes.

Now i come to the point where "Born with the dead" might be very significant. This, i think, is the biggest clue we first get when it comes to Jon and his true heritage. A dead direwolf mother, killed by a stag's antler. Gave birth to not only five pups (to symbolize Ned), but an albino pup that was "driven away." This pup has his eyes open before the other pups. Hmmmmmm....A direwolf mother died but her albino pup seemed to come into the world before the others. Guys, connecting the dots yet?

"Promise me, Ned...."

Yup, on the last two pages we talked about Jon omitting himself as a "sacrifice" and a "test". One he made it he was able to find Ghost.

And about Mother DW being a symbol for both Cat (dead mother to five pups, driving away "snow" pup) and Lyanna (dead mother who wasn't able to rais her "pup").

Great call-out on Elric, Ghost and Bloodraven.

I know not all the Melniboneans looked like Elric as he was the anomaly, whereas Martin switched the idea and suggests all Valaryians look like Rhaegar.

It would be interesting if Jon did father a child to see if it would come out looking like Rhaegar, because if thats possible, it may be good that Jon was so ashamed of being a bastard, he was cautious, afraid to have sex lest he impregnate a girl.

Jon fathering a child who looked like a Targ. when he clearly looks Northern would be dangerous, especially if he doesn't know about his heredity yet.

Very interesting isn't it?

Bloodraven is from the house that's already close to albinism but he's is a "freak" even among them.

Aw, cute!

How can you not feed them?

Said by a person who can't stop feeding a hedgehog colony. :laugh:

[Alia of the knife]

Have I bored and smother you with quotes? :P

Apologies if I have.

I'd love to hear your opinions about it.

Thank you.

Lol, it's a frivolous avatar too. :lol:

Sephiroth was the bast warrior, he have a epic sword, silver hair, strange way of birth. The he went crazy, got delusions of godhood, got obsessed with fire, and he can summon a dragon.

So, I've decide to consider him a secret, medium jumping, Targaryen.

It works for me. :rofl:

Thank you for the info. That is very interesting!

I think the Old Gods arranged it.

That they see all Stark kids as very important part of the upcoming fight for the Dawn.

And that they sent the pups to protect, guide and prepare the kids for it.

But then I'm prone to seeing OG everywhere. ;)

Yup, on the last two pages we talked about Jon omitting himself as a "sacrifice" and a "test". One he made it he was able to find Ghost.

And about Mother DW being a symbol for both Cat (dead mother to five pups, driving away "snow" pup) and Lyanna (dead mother who wasn't able to rais her "pup").

Very interesting isn't it?

Bloodraven is from the house that's already close to albinism but he's is a "freak" even among them.

Aw, cute!

How can you not feed them?

Said by a person who can't stop feeding a hedgehog colony. :laugh:

These are genius, and in no way boring.

And I think it would be wrong NOT to feed a hedgehog colony. :P

[evita mgfs]

** I believe this post will number 1000 for me. I have hit a magic number in Martin novels, haven’t I?

GAME OF THRONES REREAD; CHAPTER 3 OVERALL / CATELYN POV I

[FYI: I write my introductions without reading any outside sources. I do not even read The Tower of the Hand so that I am in no way impacted by assumptions made by others. I do not copy from Cliffs Notes or the like. If I borrow from a source or another poster, I always attempt to give credit for his/her ideas. I also have to type out everything long-hand for I have no source from which to copy and paste. It is working for me, though. It makes me think. I apologize my posts are sooo long. I just felt much about the godswood and heart tree and old gods are important. I did, however, ask you many questions for response and discussion, and I am sure you will bring much to this analysis that I did not touch upon – some I left out intentionally. But most you will enlighten me on with your collective brilliance, which is a compliment I mean most sincerely.]

If I were to name this chapter – for “kicks and giggles” – for I do not presume I could equal Martin, I might name it –

RED LEAVES/OLD GODS

DARK WINGS/DARK WORDS

RED LEAVES / OLD GODS

pp. 22-25

Summary in one long sentence: I see the chapter divided into two major segments: Catelyn providing us with information about her husband’s gods and the heritage of these gods; then Catelyn sharing with Ned the news delivered to WF on the wings of a raven.

• First lines of POV’s are usually important and contain little gems. We meet Catelyn Tully Stark for the first time in person with these words:

** “Catelyn had never liked this godswood” (22).

** Note the modifier of godswood: THIS. Does she dislike the godswood in Winterfell especially? How do other godswoods compare to WF?

** NEVER is a strong adverb to use; it is absolute. Not for one moment has Cat liked the godswood that her husband holds so dear.

** I am a fan of Catelyn, although I realize some judge her harshly. Martin introduces her with a sentence conveying a “negative”. Why? How does he as an author contribute to the readers’ perceptions of his characters? Are we meant to see Catelyn as one of those “grey” characters in the series?

• Martin further details Catelyn and her background for his readers:
  

** “She had been born a Tully, at Riverrun far to the south, on the Red Fork of the Trident” (22).

• Now we learn about the godswood at Riverrun, and perhaps why she dislikes the one at WF:
  

“The godswood there was a garden, bright and airy where tall redwoods spread dappled shadows across tinkling streams, birds sang from hidden nests, and the air was spicy with the scent of flowers” (22).

** I wish to point out Martin’s excellent use of parallel structure, a mark of a good writer. I once had a professor who said all good writing depends on good parallel structure:

Notice the 3 adverbial clauses that follow the main clause:

**where tall redwoods spread dappled shadows across tinkling streams

** [“where” implied] birds sang from hidden nests

** [“where” implied] the air was spicy with the scent of flowers

**note the balance in the prose: S + V + prepositional phrase.

**Then notice how each “dependent clause” evokes different sensory details: “redwoods / dappled shadows” speaks to the visual; “birds sang” speaks to the auditory; “tinkling” speaks to the auditory; “spicy / scent of flowers” speaks to the olfactory.

IMO – this is a genius at work – and I picked only one sentence of many to parse and examine in this context. Martin not only writes compelling narratives; he exercises artistic brilliance in word choices that are indeed poetic.

Moreover, “parallel structure” requires a certain mastery of the writing craft. It does not “just happen” for a writer. It requires practice and a knowledge and command of the language.

• “The gods of Winterfell kept a different sort of wood. It was a dark, primal place, three acres of old forest untouched for ten thousand years as the gloomy castle rose around it. It smelled of moist earth and decay. No redwoods grew here. This was a wood of stubborn sentinel trees armored in grey-green needles, of mighty oaks, of ironwoods as old as the realm itself. Here thick black trunks crowded close together while twisted branches wove a dense canopy overhead and misshapen roots wrestled beneath the soil. This was a place of deep silence and brooding shadows, and the gods who lived her had no names” (22).
  

** We first see the godswood through Cat’s POV, and note the word choices that illicit a negative: dark, primal, untouched, gloomy, decay, no, stubborn, black, twisted, dense, misshapen, deep, brooding, no names.

** Your turn: Can you find an example of parallel structure?

** Find an example of Martin evoking one or more of the five senses.

** How do you feel about Cat’s initial presentation of the godswood?

** Does anyone get the opinion that she thinks the Tully godswood is superior to WF’s?

• Now we learn more about Ned as well as Catelyn’s knowledge of her husband’s habits:
  

** “But she knew she would find her husband here tonight. Whenever he took a man’s life, afterward he would seek the quiet of the godswood” (22).

** Cat knows her Ned well – a point in her favor.

** Readers learn that Ned’s justice is not delivered without a sense of conscience.

• Compare Catelyn’s gods with Ned’s. Note Martin’s use of light and color to describe the Riverrun sept and even the godswood.
  

“Catelyn had been anointed with the seven oils and named in the rainbow of light that filled the sept at Riverrun. She was of the Faith, like her father and her grandfather and his father before him. Her gods had names, and their faces were as familiar as the faces of her parents. Worship was a septon and a censer, the smell of incense, a seven-sided crystal alive with light, voices raised in song. The Tullys kept a godswood, as all the great houses did, but it was only a place to walk or read or lie in the sun. Worship was for the sept” (23).

**Find a good example of parallel structure – and impress me by finding others in this POV. Then, when you write your posts, demonstrate your own command of parallel elements.

**How does Martin emphasize sensory details? Watch for examples throughout the novel.

**Why do all “the great houses” keep a godswood if its purpose is like a swimming pool with a deck, umbrellas, and loungers? Status symbol or more?

**What is the “tone” of Cat’s revelation?

**Remember language as we read the history of the heart tree later.

• Ned is revealed as generous and empathetic for he had a small sept built just for her to sing and worship.
  

“. . . but the blood of the First Men still flowed in the veins of the Starks, and his own gods were the old ones, the nameless, faceless gods of the greenwood they shared with the vanished children of the forest” (23).

**Any information about the Stark blood is important, as well as the mention of the FM.

Hmm. I wonder why? Any takers?

• What follows is the history of the heart tree, and I could not edit one word. This tree is a living, breathing entity. It is a CHARACTER – much more than a mere tree.
  

“At the center of the grove an ancient weirwood brooded over a small pool where the waters were black and cold. “The heart tree,” Ned called it. The weirwood’ bark was white as bone, its leaves dark red, like a thousand bloodstained hands. A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful. They were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself. They had seen Brandon the Builder set the first stone, if the tales were true; they had watched the castle’s granite walls rise around them. It was said that the children of the forest had carved the faces in the trees during the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea” (23).

**Ned considers the tree the heart of WF. Why is this symbolic?

**Granite significance, anyone?

**

I could point out many things of later import, but I will indulge in one reference and allow you to share your thoughts instead of me. Compare the heart tree’s face with the one Martin describes in “Prince of Winterfell” in DwD: “The weirwood’s carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches a raven quorked” (488). [This occurs at the mummer’s farce of a wedding where Theon gives Jeyne Poole as Arya away in marriage to Ramsay Bolton.]

**Any takers on the “face”?

**How does Martin personify the tree? How is this significant? Watch for more examples of personification. I will not point out any more for you.

**Tradition and history. Why are these important – and to whom? Does Cat understand these old gods? She seems to be judging a book by its cover, so to speak.

**Why do nameless gods bother her?

**Why are the old gods nameless?

• Catelyn reveals that in the south the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned a thousand years ago, except where? Who “watches” this place silently?
  
• “Here every castle had its godswood, and every godswood had its heart tree, and every heart tree its face” (23). [Did you note parallel structure?]
  

** Why is the collective unity important?

** Okay, this is my BIG find. Martin describes Ned cleaning Ice, and he assumes the SAME repose as the Starks in the WF crypts:

• “Catelyn found her husband beneath the weirwood, seated on a moss-covered stone. The greatsword Ice was across his lap, and he was cleaning the blade in those waters black as night. A thousand years of humus lay thick upon the godswood floor, swallowing the sound of her feet, but the red eyes of the weirwood seemed to follow her as she came. ‘Ned,’ she called softly’” (23).
  

**Find a simile.

**What “sound” dominates this passage?

• What question does Ned always ask Catelyn? What does that say of him as a father?
  

**Finally, DIREWOLVES: “In the kitchen, arguing about names for the wolf pups . . . Arya is already in love, and Sansa is charmed and gracious, but Rickon is not quite sure” (24).

1. The children are a bond Ned and Cat share, if not their gods. What does Cat’s response to Ned suggest about her assumptions about Arya, Sansa, and Rickon, whom we have not yet met? We met Jon, Bran, and Robb – so Martin does not have Cat mention the other three. Happy coincidence? Or Martin’s tight planning?
   
2. Recall a time when you named a pet. This is a big moment for the children. Can you relate?
   
3. Ned dismisses Rickon’s fears – why? Does this intimate he is a BAD father? Or too demanding? Or do these children need to grow up faster than those today? What challenges, if any, can compare with the Stark children and the youth of today?
   
4. Do we all know the Stark words? Let us same them out loud together?
   
5. What is symbolic in Ice’s coloration?
   
6. Why are the Stark words “strange” to Cat?
   
7. What is Ned’s concern about the Night’s Watch?
   
8. Find more personification of the heart tree.
   
9. Catelyn shudders when Ned mentions calling the banners to deal with the King-beyond-the-Wall. Why?
   

**Let us find examples of “verbal irony” – when a character says one thing but means another. Verbal Irony can also be “unconscious” – in that the characters have no clue that what they are saying is indeed ironic? (p. 25 esp.)

**I love Ned because of his deep caring and concern for his children and his wife. He also has a sense of humor. Can you find examples of this on p. 25?

DARK WINGS / DARK WORDS

PP. 25-27

• Cat knows that news of his foster father will take her husband hard. Her love for him is demonstrated in how well she knows him in this scene. How do you think she handles sharing this sad news with Ned?
  

**What did Mad King Aerys demand?

**How are Ned and JA brothers?

**Who wrote the letter Cat receives? Why is this significant? As opposed to a master writing the letter?

**How does Ned once again show his empathy for his wife and others?

• I called this section DARK WINGS/DARK WORDS. Why might I think the impending visit of the King bodes ill for the Starks?
  

** Ned obviously does not agree. He seems pleased at the prospect of seeing his friend again. Perhaps Cat’s instincts are more on point: “But she had heard the talk in the yards; a direwolf dead in the snow, a broken antler in its throat. Dread coiled within her like a snake, but she forced herself to smile at this man she loved, this man who put no faith in signs. ‘I knew that would please you . . . We should send word to your brother on the Wall” (26).

If Ned DID believe in signs, would he have reacted any differently?

• Ned does not think well of the Lannisters. Why?
  
• Ned reminds me of my father, who cannot remember my name when I am in the company of my four sisters. I hear, “Grace, no Caroline, no Alane, dammit! Sharissa?
  

No!Mary!”His mother did the same thing.Ned doesn’t seem to confuse the names of his children, but he doesn’t recall the ages of the Baratheon [cough] children.Is he lacking in good recall?Or does he have other concerns that occupy his mind?Or other?

• Who is Robb named after?
  
• What special preparations does Ned plan for Robert?
  
• “Damn the man. Damn his royal hide” (27). In what tone does Ned say these words?
  

Now I look forward to your finds! And for reading all of this, you all win a big sloppy kiss from my Moses as Jacob and his three-year-old co-star Renesmee:

http://ladyevyta.tumblr.com/post/35322287586/renesmee-giving-jacob-some-loving-scary-marcus

This is me AFTER writing all this and after play rehearsal: http://ladyevyta.tumblr.com/post/35326733100/bella-sleeping-with-her-teeth-showing

[Dark Heart]

These are genius, and in no way boring.

And I think it would be wrong NOT to feed a hedgehog colony. :P

Thank you.

As for hedgehogs; there's a lot of them around. And they often go in my backyard.

By now they are used to "free" food they find in it.

Chapter 3 commentary :

I don't have a lot of time for a long post (posts about Ghost took all my free time) so this will be short.

The connection of Old Gods and He of Many Faces is interesting.

I've been thinking about it for a while but I still don't have a full theory.

But some things are obvious.

OG are nameless / FM must be "no one" and have no name.

OG are faceless / FM are faceless (I win a award for pointing obvious things :dunce: )

OG have many faces (as many as the trees) / He of Many Faces is He of Many Faces.

There are other less glaring parallels. The trees are awakened by blood, blood must be shed for a new face to "take". Going into a tree is, in a way, taking a new face. Warging is a thing of OG and as we have seen strong wargs / greenseers can take over other humans.

In a way that is also "taking a new face".

I find it fascination that Ned was the one to build a sept in WF for Cat.

That tells us that before Cat came North WF was entirely a place of Old Gods.

Seven are new and strange to WF.

For the Cat / Theon views on weirwood's face :

First explanation is that, in a way, faces can be seen as "Rorschach tests". Different people will see different thing when looking at them.

"The Stark" look is described as long, solemn, melancholy faces. To Cat the "Stark Tree" might look similar to Ned.

Theon is (before Reek) described as always smiling. His smile is the thing people see first. And he is aware of it. He even names his horse Smiley.

So, to him weirwood's face might look like it's about to smile.

Second, and more farfetched, explanation is that the face have changed.

I don't even want to think about the way wood would move and change it's expression.

Nor I'm sure it would "smile" at the wedding taking place.

I don't understand why would it find worth a true simile. Now if it's slasher's "you are all going to die" smile forming then it would make sense. :devil:

But "changing face" explanation still doesn't work.

Theon have seen it a million times before. If it was different then before he would surely comment on it?

[Ice Turtle]

One of the themes of Martin's books is that you are able to live best in your own element. Find your place and don't leave it. Of course, life will always force you to do so. Cat is Riverlander to the bone. She loves Ned, she loves her children, but she has never loved the North, it never really become her place. Anyways the negative description reminds a little of Arya describing Braavosi weather, though Arya actually loves Braavos.

Cat siting with her back to weirwood is an interesting moment, it reminds me of her treatment of Jon.

First thing Ned always asks is how are children. Ned Stark is firs and foremost family man. More than he is a lord or Stark I think. I think that it was very hard for him when his old family (father, siblings even Rober and Jon Arryn) all died or left his life and he would have become a very sad man but there already were too little children that were his joy and responsibility at the end of the rebellion.

About Rickon, Ned frowned, he is concerned a little. I wonder if Shaggy was always too wild. Bran and Robb found the direwolves and they choose first which pup will be theirs. Even girls probably had some choice which female will belong to whom (And if Lady was tame and pretty and Nymeria fierce they probably wasn't arguing about it at all) Rickon had no choice.

Arya loves, Sansa is charmed. Arya is creature of strong and deep emotion, be it love or hate, Sansa is much more superficial in this, which makes her less vengeful, but she also rarely forms any strong bonds and is makes her worse judge of character. Only speculation on my part but I wonder if this also foreshadows their future romantic life. Sansa has the a crush every few moonturns but she never knows these men. Arya on the other hand...

Stark words are awesome! And yes they are different, and important, because winter is always coming, even at the beginning of spring.

Cat is afraid. People say that Arya and Cat are similar, in few ways they are, but this is very important part of their personalities that is polar opposite. Cat is ruled by fear. Even in this happy setting Cat have her heart full of doom and gloom. Granted, the royal visit turns out to be very bad for Starks, but Cat always feels like this. Her feelings for Jon are formed in large by fear he will endanger her children and fear that Ned loved someone more. She is almost unable to by happy because she is always afraid of things that will come.

[evita mgfs]

ALIA OF THE KNIFE, DARK HEART, FLORINA STARK, AND LADY WENDY: I wish to apologize for not addressing your wonderful posts, :dunno: and I promise I will do so when I am feeling better. I have a migraine, :frown5: and I cannot find my script in my house because every room is piled high with costumes – and every where I go five shadows follow, but I am not complaining. I am just not feeling bright and chipper.

I spent 45 minutes composing this – and then as I prepared to post, the entire thing just vanished. This also happens every I time I write a reply to Manderly’s Rat Cook. Now, I vow, I will write all my posts in a word document and copy and paste like a good girl so that history does not repeat itself. [Dah! That rule may last a day before I break it as well]

Not that my comments are that essential to anyone’s existence or anything. I always manage to screw up something – so I hope I have not posted too late, or too early, or in the midst of things. I hope the date is right and I read the right chapter in the right book.

Let me count my blunders :bawl: [for I know this is a skill at which I excell]: I made a schedule that is confusing; I posted too early and [unintentionally] stole The Pack Survive’s thunder [which she very much deserved]; I broke my own ill-conceived suggestion not to post about events to come; I write long, winded, rambling responses that a better author could say in two well-constructed sentences; I laugh at my own jokes; I truly believe Dolorous Edd and I are somehow related, which I think is not the best for those forced to be around us; I caused unnecessary confusion, and I sent people silly squirrels with hats . . . I will stop there – this is too humbling.

Feel free to replace me in my absence. You have top drawer potential here. Some of you are writing pieces that are publishable, IMO. :bowdown:

I think it best I crawl under some rock and hide for a few days – until I feel more confident and chipper.

You ALL have done such a wonderful job in your posts – and so many of you have put in enormous time and effort – even translating myths into a language we can read. I am in awe, and you deserve better of me as leader here, if that is what I am supposed to be.

I look forward every time I post to read someone’s reaction to my observations, and you all have kindly done that. I want to return that feeling of acknowledgement in kind, and right now I do not even think I am making sense. [if you ever had a blinding migraine with nausea and the works, you know where I am coming from.]

I threaten you all, I will return – probably much sooner than you’d like because I am a westerosi addict. Maybe I will even feel good enough to torture you with a hat-wearing squirrel! Or Moses, who has a swelled head with his theatre prowess.

I have whined enough! I must find those migraine pills, darn it. If I miss-posted again my Cat POV – I apologize. Before I sleep for a good 24 hours, I just wanted you all to know why I am not responding. I do not mean to ignore anyone’s posts; but you deserve a better response from me than I seem able to give at this moment.

Moses made off with my remote control – and I caught him! Here’s the proof of his sneaky ways:

http://ladyevyta.tumblr.com/post/35326821045/sneaky-moses-stealing-the-remote-control-moses

Aha! Maybe my medication is in my dogs’ hole under the picnic table, where they squirreled away my Ny-Quil, pens, Post-its, A Storm of Swords, page 553 of GoT, telephone, denture paste, :blushing: and who knows what else! :dunno:

Until later – take care. Thanks for letting me whine, and if you could, I’d suggest you “burn after reading”.

"I will be back!"

[Little Wing]

Lovely analysis Dark Heart!

Ghost being the quiet one suggest he knows much and more - it's always the quiet ones isn't it, who know all, see all? And without a voice, his communication is on a more deeper level - Jon senses him in Bran's chapter and we see in Dark Heart's post that Ghost senses what his brothers and sisters sense, however far away the may be. They are connected much like the weirnet is. Just like the weirwoods are a community that shares, so are the direwolves their immediate copy - they share information, they are wired in and Ghost seems to be tuned in the most.

Dark Heart said:

"We also see that Ghost who is just a pup is well capable of intimidating a full grown dog that's three times bigger then him.

This might be nothing more then the fact that DW are more dangerous then dogs. And that dogs are aware of it.

It could also be a parallel with Jon.

On and beyond Wall Jon will "stare down" men three times older then him."

This is, I believe, a foreshadowing of a darker Jon that we have yet to meet. Jon as the King of Winter, and the Kings of Winter were fierce! I agree that Bran will visit Jon in his comatose state (what are a few stabs, I ask you? and GRRM said: "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?") and reveal what he's seen in the past through the trees or Jon will get a visit from the 3EC, just like Bran did in his comatose state. Anyway, from then on, I believe we will see Jon Stark, determined and finally sure of himself - just like Ghost is in that scene with the dog trying to take what is his! :devil: I like how, sometimes, Ghost is more of a Stark than Jon is :laugh: but that's about to come in balance I believe.

Okay, Heresy rant over!

ETA: Will comment on Cat's chapter later, gotta run at the moment!

[DreamSongs]

Dark Heart said:

"We also see that Ghost who is just a pup is well capable of intimidating a full grown dog that's three times bigger then him.

This might be nothing more then the fact that DW are more dangerous then dogs. And that dogs are aware of it.

It could also be a parallel with Jon.

On and beyond Wall Jon will "stare down" men three times older then him."

This is, I believe, a foreshadowing of a darker Jon that we have yet to meet. Jon as the King of Winter, and the Kings of Winter were fierce! I agree that Bran will visit Jon in his comatose state (what are a few stabs, I ask you? and GRRM said: "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?") and reveal what he's seen in the past through the trees or Jon will get a visit from the 3EC, just like Bran did in his comatose state. Anyway, from then on, I believe we will see Jon Stark, determined and finally sure of himself - just like Ghost is in that scene with the dog trying to take what is his! :devil: I like how, sometimes, Ghost is more of a Stark than Jon is :laugh: but that's about to come in balance I believe.

Okay, Heresy rant over!

Dark Heart...thank you for that wonderful analysis!

Little Wing, I don't feel like you are a heretic at all. When we see descriptions of the children, they tend to carry Tully traits, especially Robb and Sansa. Jon and Arya resemble Starks. To me, Jon was always more a Stark than Robb. Jon is associated with the North and living a harder life. Robb is the Golden Hero that dies in the riverlands that everyone put all thier hopes in while Jon attended to the harder task of defending the realm where it was needed most.

I think its interesting that the children that most resemble Tullys lose thier DWs first. Perhaps this has something to do with Cat's dislike of the old Gods.

[Alia of the knife]

One of the themes of Martin's books is that you are able to live best in your own element. Find your place and don't leave it. Of course, life will always force you to do so. Cat is Riverlander to the bone. She loves Ned, she loves her children, but she has never loved the North, it never really become her place. Anyways the negative description reminds a little about Arya describing Braavosi weather, though Arya actually loves Braavos.

Cat siting with her back to weirwood is an interesting moment, it reminds me of her treatment of Jon.

First thing Ned always asks is how are children. Ned Stark is firs and foremost family man. More than he is a lord or Stark I think. I think that it was very hard for him when his old family (father, siblings even Rober and Jon Arryn) all died or left his life and he would have become a very sad man but there already were too little children that were his joy and responsibility at the end of the rebellion.

About Rickon, Ned frowned, he is concerned a little. I wonder if Shaggy was always too wild. Bran and Robb found the direwolves and they choose first which pup will be theirs. Even girls probably had some choice which female will belong to whom (And if Lady was tame and pretty and Nymeria fierce they probably wasn't arguing about it at all) Rickon had no choice.

Arya loves, Sansa is charmed. Arya is creature of strong and deep emotion, be it love or hate, Sansa is much more superficial in this, which makes her less vengeful, but she also rarely forms any strong bonds and is makes her worse judge of character. Only speculation on my part but I wonder if this also foreshadows their future romantic life. Sansa has the a crush every few moonturns but she never knows these men. Arya on the other hand...

Stark words are awesome! And yes they are different, and important, because winter is always coming, even at the beginning of spring.

Cat is afraid. People say that Arya and Cat are similar, in few ways they are, but this is very important part of their personalities that is polar opposite. Cat is ruled by fear. Even in this happy setting Cat have her heart full of doom and gloom. Granted, the royal visit turns out to be very bad for Starks, but Cat always feels like this. Her feelings for Jon are formed in large by fear he will endanger her children and fear that Ned loved someone more. She is almost unable to by happy because she is always afraid of things that will come.

Really spot on and touching analyis.

And I too think it's really Arya with the tender heart, and Sansas more fanciful.

While I think Sansa is not incapable of deep feeling and emotion, I think it comes more naturally to Arya, especially passion.

The man that wants Arya will not get her easily, and he'll have to work to keep her, whereas I think that Sansa will adapt to whatever alliance, or relationship she is in, working it to her advantage as I think LF will teach her that.

But as for Arya, wasn't it Tyrion who observed that even a dragon could be tamed, but a wolf never would.

The last part of your statement on Cat is excellent. I know, because I have a Co-worker who is just like her. She truly believes if she is happy, something bad will happen. :dunno:

I tell her something bad will happen because that is life, but while "life is not a song," it's also not a tragedy either and she should take her happiness where she can.

ALIA OF THE KNIFE, DARK HEART, FLORINA STARK, AND LADY WENDY: I wish to apologize for not addressing your wonderful posts, :dunno: and I promise I will do so when I am feeling better. I have a migraine, :frown5: and I cannot find my script in my house because every room is piled high with costumes – and every where I go five shadows follow, but I am not complaining. I am just not feeling bright and chipper.

I spent 45 minutes composing this – and then as I prepared to post, the entire thing just vanished. This also happens every I time I write a reply to Manderly’s Rat Cook. Now, I vow, I will write all my posts in a word document and copy and paste like a good girl so that history does not repeat itself. [Dah! That rule may last a day before I break it as well]

Not that my comments are that essential to anyone’s existence or anything. I always manage to screw up something – so I hope I have not posted too late, or too early, or in the midst of things. I hope the date is right and I read the right chapter in the right book.

Let me count my blunders :bawl: [for I know this is a skill at which I excell]: I made a schedule that is confusing; I posted too early and [unintentionally] stole The Pack Survive’s thunder [which she very much deserved]; I broke my own ill-conceived suggestion not to post about events to come; I write long, winded, rambling responses that a better author could say in two well-constructed sentences; I laugh at my own jokes; I truly believe Dolorous Edd and I are somehow related, which I think is not the best for those forced to be around us; I caused unnecessary confusion, and I sent people silly squirrels with hats . . . I will stop there – this is too humbling.

Feel free to replace me in my absence. You have top drawer potential here. Some of you are writing pieces that are publishable, IMO. :bowdown:

I think it best I crawl under some rock and hide for a few days – until I feel more confident and chipper.

You ALL have done such a wonderful job in your posts – and so many of you have put in enormous time and effort – even translating myths into a language we can read. I am in awe, and you deserve better of me as leader here, if that is what I am supposed to be.

I look forward every time I post to read someone’s reaction to my observations, and you all have kindly done that. I want to return that feeling of acknowledgement in kind, and right now I do not even think I am making sense. [if you ever had a blinding migraine with nausea and the works, you know where I am coming from.]

I threaten you all, I will return – probably much sooner than you’d like because I am a westerosi addict. Maybe I will even feel good enough to torture you with a hat-wearing squirrel! Or Moses, who has a swelled head with his theatre prowess.

I have whined enough! I must find those migraine pills, darn it. If I miss-posted again my Cat POV – I apologize. Before I sleep for a good 24 hours, I just wanted you all to know why I am not responding. I do not mean to ignore anyone’s posts; but you deserve a better response from me than I seem able to give at this moment.

Moses made off with my remote control – and I caught him! Here’s the proof of his sneaky ways:

http://ladyevyta.tum...e-control-moses

Aha! Maybe my medication is in my dogs’ hole under the picnic table, where they squirreled away my Ny-Quil, pens, Post-its, A Storm of Swords, page 553 of GoT, telephone, denture paste, :blushing: and who knows what else! :dunno:

Until later – take care. Thanks for letting me whine, and if you could, I’d suggest you “burn after reading”.

"I will be back!"

I hope you feel better, on of my friends has been going to a neurologist for migraines. They are so bad there are times she has to go to the hospital for the "drips."

He's going to try one more thing, and if that doesn't work for her, he's going to approve her for botox so her insurance will cover it, because apparently there is some benefit.

They don't know what causes it, at best guess it's most likely stress-related, but I've watched her suffer for years.

Dark Heart...thank you for that wonderful analysis!

Little Wing, I don't feel like you are a heretic at all. When we see descriptions of the children, they tend to carry Tully traits, especially Robb and Sansa. Jon and Arya resemble Starks. To me, Jon was always more a Stark than Robb. Jon is associated with the North and living a harder life. Robb is the Golden Hero that dies in the riverlands that everyone put all thier hopes in while Jon attended to the harder task of defending the realm where it was needed most.

I think its interesting that the children that most resemble Tullys lose thier DWs first. Perhaps this has something to do with Cat's dislike of the old Gods.

I agree with this, as unassuming as their physical looks may be, the fact the "Stark look" is as unique as the "Targaryen look" may also foreshadow as much of an "other worldly" conncection as the dragons.

And, I also think that ice and fire will always attract each other, no matter who is between them.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

I agree with this, as unassuming as their physical looks may be, the fact the "Stark look" is as unique as the "Targaryen look" may also foreshadow as much of an "other worldly" conncection as the dragons.

And, I also think that ice and fire will always attract each other, no matter who is between them.

Alia, I love how you're always SPOT ON with my own theories and crackpot train of thought ^^

I agree with this. Despite Melisandre's KILL ALL THE ICE!!1one belief, I strongly believe that one cannot exist without one another and fire (Targs) and ice (my precious wolves) will interact and bring shit together at some point.

PS. I'm so sorry for not being as active as I should have been (seeing as Evita and I run this together) but the craziness of life is over now, and I'll be posting our new chapter tomorrow or the next day ^^

[Alia of the knife]

Alia, I love how you're always SPOT ON with my own theories and crackpot train of thought ^^

I agree with this. Despite Melisandre's KILL ALL THE ICE!!1one belief, I strongly believe that one cannot exist without one another and fire (Targs) and ice (my precious wolves) will interact and bring shit together at some point.

PS. I'm so sorry for not being as active as I should have been (seeing as Evita and I run this together) but the craziness of life is over now, and I'll be posting our new chapter tomorrow or the next day ^^

Crackpot?

I prefer to think that great minds think alike :laugh:

I have wondered sometimes whether all of this strife is a result of a forbidden relationship between Ice and Fire, (Starks and Targaryens), due to the powerful offspring they will produce, or if the strife and the lack of balance and harmony in the Westerosi universe is because they are being kept apart.

[Alia of the knife]

Another one of my favorite works is Frank Herberts "Dune," and I see many similarities betweent the two stories, which is what drew me to a aSoIaF.

I have often compared Rhaegar to Paul Atreides, right down to the women in his life, Elia/Irulan and Lyanna/Chani.

Both Lyanna and Chani died in childbirth to sons who would "shorten the way," as an element, or fulfillment of prophesy.

Rhaegar and Paul Atreides wondered if they were the one, and tormented by visions.

Alia of the Knife, Paule Atreides powerful sister, who was a fulfillment of prophesy herself, (and my avatar), is very similar to Dany, who may also have not such a good end.

Here is a video I posted in another thread. I wonder if Jon and Danys relationship would be somewhat like the relationship between Leto, Pauls son, and his Aunt Alia.

"The Golden Path"

[DreamSongs]

ITS BACK ITS BACK

THE LIKE BUTTON IS BACK!!!!!!

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: FOR RAN AND THE SYSTEM ADMINS

[Little Wing]

"Catelyn had never liked this godswood."

As opposed to the godswood in Riverrun. The descriptions of both godswoods spoke volumes to me on this 2^nd re-read. The dark, gloomy, primal and above all quiet godswood with it's moist earthy smells of raw nature in Winterfell matches the Starks beautifully. Their ancient, mysterious line old as the godswood itself almost, the quiet tombs of Winterfell, with their secrets of old, kept in the darkness by iron. Cat's godswood of the south, on the other hand is simply a beautiful, light-filled garden, with birds chirping and spicy smells. And what struck me the most is Cat's naming of Ned's gods as nameless and faceless, in contrast to her gods who had a name and a face... This is, to me, an example of what Ice Turtle said earlier, how Cat is governed by fear. Ned's gods are different than hers in everything. Is that why she dislikes them so? Out of fear of the different, unknown? This makes sense, as people are usually frightened of the unknown.

Something else I wanted to point out here about the differences between the North and the South: when Cat says how their gods have names and faces and they worship in the sept it struck me how the Southerners like to label things and find comfort in that. The gods are safe now that we named them and gave them their house, now they are like us - it's safe to worship. It's like the Southerners have, unlike the Northerners, created an invisible wall (so, they have their own wall) between them and the wild outdoors. Not worshiping outside has left them estranged from nature, and Cat's discomfort makes sense if viewed like this.

"his voice was distant and formal"

This is how Ned spoke to Cat when she appeared. Probably not the way he'd normally speak to her, when not in the godswood. Another reason to dislike the godswood/Old Gods? Ned looks for solace in them, not her?

Also, interesting to note that Cat seems much more superstitious than Ned - we saw how the talk around Winterfell about the direwolf found with the antler through its throat created fear that coiled like a snake in her belly. Not so with Ned. Again, maybe a sign of her fear controlling her? Fear usually feeds superstition...

I've always found the fear of the trees having eyes, seeing things is ripe with Southerners but not with Northerners - who are the ones hiding something then, hm? Doing something they want hidden, secret? And who has nothing to hide?

I liked how Cat gave us pause with the Starks' words - they are also different. A heads up that there may be more to the Starks than meets the eye?

"I ought to know better than to argue with a Tully"

Does this mean Tullies are always right or just too stubborn to argue with? As Cat had a point before Ned said this, I'm inclined to go with the former. Cat hasn't been right every single time, but she had the right of it most of the time (only no one listened....)

No animal observations in this one, only wanted to say: Ned is such a good husband :wub: and Cat loves him so :wub: despite all her fear/discomfort of...well, everything the North and the Starks represent, it seems... didn't people notice how she became more of a Stark only when she left Winterfell?

Edit: spelling.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Daenerys I (AGoT Chapter IV)

Daenerys’ first chapter is mostly about the story of how she and her brother fleed Westeros, how she needs to get ready for Khal Drogo etc… There’s very little mention of magical animals, so this may be a tad short – because I will only be paying attention to the parts this thread is about. I hope you guys won’t be disappointed by the (lack of) length.

While Daenerys is getting ready to meet her future husband, she’s also remembering all the things Viserys told her about Westeros, their House, and their history. She also reminisces about her brother himself.

His anger was a terrible thing when roused. Viserys called it “waking the dragon.”

I don’t think a dolt like Viserys is actually aware of the phrase “waking the dragons from the stone” which we will encounter with in the following books. If there’s any significance here, it’s lost to me. In my mind, Viserys is only a tiny lizard who fancies himself an invincible dragon. The only thing I can think about is that this could be a foreshadowing for when Daenerys actually does wake the dragons.

In the Free Cities, they talked of Westeros and the Sunset Kingdoms. Her brother had a simpler name. “Our land,” he called it. The words were like a prayer with him. If he said them enough, the gods were sure to hear. “Ours by blood right, taken from us by treachery, but ours still, ours forever. You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers.”

I’m getting a little irritated with the “remembering” going on in Westeros, guys. The North remembers, House Royce’s words are “We Remember” and now apparently dragons remember too? Yeah Westerosi, congratulations. You’ve no memory issues, we get it. Although one might ask why you lot keep doing the same stupid mistakes if you’re so clever.

Anyway… we’ve other “dragon” and Valyrian blood mentions during when Daenerys takes a bath and gets ready,

She liked the heat. It made her feel clean. Besides, her brother had often told her that it was never too hot for a Targaryen. “Ours is the house of the dragon,” he would say. “The fire is in our blood.”

For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men.

The last one reminds me of something that Cersei thought in AFFC, while thinking about Rhaegar. She too, had pointed out that Rhaegar was “not a regular man” and remarked that he was the blood of the old Valyria, even thought him as a half-god, in a way. That’s interesting to think about. Aside from the rare (but existent) resistance to fire and ability to see the future from time to time, what exactly makes Valyrian blood superior to others, as some characters seem to be under the impression of? Starks have certain magical qualities in their blood too, but you don’t see people of the Seven Kingdoms thinking of them that way. Is it simple awe towards the untouchable, or is it something more?

After this, Viserys and Ilyrio have a conversation about how people of the Seven Kingdoms cry out for their true King, sew dragon banners and hide them etc… Daenerys notes that the Magister looks sly, even mocking, and remarks that she doesn’t trust him or his words. When Khal arrives with his bloodriders and Ser Jorah, Dany is understandably frightened by him, describing him as:

Khal Drogo was a head taller than the tallest man in the room, yet somehow light on his feet, as graceful as the panther in Illyrio’s menagerie. He was younger than she’d thought, no more than thirty. His skin was the color of polished copper, his thick mustachios bound with gold and bronze rings.

[…]

His face was hard and cruel, his eyes as cold and dark as onyx. Her brother hurt her sometimes, when she woke the dragon, but he did not frighten her the way this man frightened her.

After the introductions are made, Viserys instructs Daenerys to stop crying and looking frightened, for Khal Drogo is approaching them. Daenerys “smiles and stands up straight.”

[evita mgfs]

Moses makes a perfect Jacob...and the young lady is the perfect complement. Reminds me of the imprinting thing in the Twilight saga....they look like they belong together.

Sorry...I did not enjoy reading the Twilight saga....I only read it so I could criticize the author's cheap rip-off of Anne Rice's work without being challenged at work without being able to state why. I read all the books and I will reread Anne Rice's work any day. I will never reread Stephanie Meyers.

But to each thier own...I'm a Star Wars fan myself.

Wiccan heart that I am...when would be a good time to start talking about 'familiars' (when the old ragged tom shows up in KL or when we get more into the DW)? When is a good time to bring up cryptozoology/paranormal (aka large black dogs/hound of baskervilles). Obviously that should go with Pack's DW discussion.

:bowdown: LADY WENDY: I'M BACK! You are too kind in your posts. I did not find Meyers a "good" writer. My teen girl students begged me to read the books - even bought them to me. As a teacher, I tried to keep up with what they were reading - and I have to admit, I really thought Meyers "caught" that "first love" feeling for girls - and the dangers of of the forbidden fruit.

I open with events for most big films. I will be doing Hunger Games seqeul Catching Fire, and Moses will be one of the genetically altered "wolf mutts". [He is a theatre HAM,}

After our photo shoot, my husband had to pick out the popcorn from his fur! He decided to go behind the counter and help Fred and Sibbie wait on customers - and appovve of the amount of butter they put on each patron's popcorn! If they dropped any, he was there to pick it up.

Regarding your black dogs [and I am starting here from the posts where I left off because of my blinding migraine - so maybe you posted it already?] IMO, when we look at the direwolves and their coloring - even in on's POV, he tells his Uncle Benjen the wolves ae grey and black - but he has Ghost - the "white" silent one - you can post. Even in Cat's POV, Ned and Cat discuss Rickon's fear of his wolf - so it should fit there as well.

I am soo happy you are back. I have a lot of catching up to do - and I am sure you made other posts for me to look at here shortly!

I feel soo much better today. I hated to be away from westeros and my thread - but the computer screen and the light really made my head throb even more!

Good observations, Lady Wendy. I know I will be addressing your ideas again soon!

BTW - big Star Wars fan here, too! :blushing:

[evita mgfs]

Quick review of basic Mendelsson genetics using the sickle-cell trait.

The sickle cell trait produces crescent shaped red blood cells that help protect against malaria. If you have two people that have a dominant trait for normal red blood cells and a recessive trait for sickle cell, their children have the following...

25% will have dominant traits and no sickled cells and no protection against malaria.

50% will have the dominant and recessive traits. They will be protected against malaria

25% will only have the recessive trait. They will be protected from malaria, but the double dose of sickle celled red blood cells will lead to blood coagulation in small blood vessels and cause extreme pain because tissues don't receive oxygen. We call this sickle-cell anemia.

ETA: because I keep saving this post since I lost a big huge one where I had everything typed in....

Alia...I had have not thought much about the albinism factor with Targs directly. It was obvious to me that recessive genetics was in effect, but I never thought about it beyond HRH Joffrey. Obviously, dominant and recessive genes play a role in ASOIAF beginning with Jon Arryn's investigation into Robert's bastards.

You can flip a coin on my sanity...did I remember to take my Prozac today? :cool4:

:bowdown: LADY WENDY: I think I may have addressed your break down here - but I am not sure. I want you to know, I have written beautiful posts that disappear when I push the POST button. The better the post, I think, the more likely for it to "disappear!" I never lose a post of one sentence and an emoticom! It is a conspiracy. :bang:

Now, you take your Prozac and I'll take mine, and we'll be reborn - and maybe feel human again!

I really liked this breakdown, although I am no good with percentages, I do think you made it very clear and comprehensive for all the posters.

AWESOME JOB AGAIN! :love:

[evita mgfs]

Ok, big apologies for not being much in this thread. Shit has been cray cray with me lately. I was sick and then i had a bunch of things to do and catch up on.

Great stuff everyone! Im just gonna go ahead and comment on the Bran chapter. Cuz most of the animal stuff is first seen here lol

I agree that there seems to be an interesting parallel going on between the mother direwolf and Lyanna. But it has more to do with House Stark as a whole. Impaled by a stag....huh....Baratheons seem to be the catalysts for what eventually happened to House Stark.

Why is that, i wonder? Why now did a direwolf, pregnant no less, wander down south of the Wall? Are the Others responsible for driving her down? Or was it something else?

Bran's Cuteness Proximity is in full effect here. As is the reader's. BABY BEAST! D'awwww. The pup already begins to bond a bit with Robb.

There are five of them. Just as there are five Stark children. This begs the question i posted above: Could it have been something else that drove the she-wolf south of the Wall? Something other than the Others that is. My theory points to what we find out later about a crow with three eyes....

Yep. The symbolism is so strong here, even guys like Jory are unnerved. Poor Bran doesnt understand but Ned certainly does and he is not pleased. Knowing the Baratheon House sigil....The sign is too strong to ignore.

This is an interesting bit right here.....I will get to this in a moment.

We then see that the men and Ned want to put down the pups. Robb and Bran protest in earnest. Bran especially. Jon then pipes up talking about how the pups correspond with the sigil of House Stark and the number of pups and their respective genders.

Jon deliberately leaves himself out of this equation. Bran notes how this is a bit tough to hear since he regards Jon as a real brother, but knows his place. Jon stands outside of House Stark.

Driving the point home....only to find....

An albino pup who may have been "driven away."

Hmmm yes.

Now i come to the point where "Born with the dead" might be very significant. This, i think, is the biggest clue we first get when it comes to Jon and his true heritage. A dead direwolf mother, killed by a stag's antler. Gave birth to not only five pups (to symbolize Ned), but an albino pup that was "driven away." This pup has his eyes open before the other pups. Hmmmmmm....A direwolf mother died but her albino pup seemed to come into the world before the others. Guys, connecting the dots yet?

"Promise me, Ned...."

:bowdown: FLORINA STARK: I hardly knew you! You come in styling weith a new AWESOME avatar that looks like my father nodding yes and yes and yes to another shot of voldka on the weekends [He only drinks on the weekends, so, you see, he is not an alcoholic. It is sound reasoning, NO?] I am being a bit goofy - feeling much better now and I can appreciate everyone's posts without the endless pounding.

BTW WELCOME BACK! I missed you!

I think the "being born with the dead" idea is an awesome find. I tried to find who among our posters found it originally - and I think the credit goes o Manderly' Rat Cook - who has been making quite scholarly observations here - and POSTs near as long as mine - and YOURS too.

But, like you did, the OTHER posters have kept building on this idea - and I am wracking my own brain to come up with a like observation to build on the idea further. I even think someone already mentioned Tyrion whose mother died giving him life.

Now - what about those mothers who did not die, but their children died? Like Lady Lysa Arryn, who loses Littlefinger's "get", but apparently it was a forced abortion deal, for her father made her drink a potion that brought on the labor - maybe her babe was born too soon? And then Dany, who supposedly gives birth to a dead, dragon-deformed baby that Ser Jorah dispells with? (where is that little babe she birthed? What did Jorah do with the little corpse?)

Great Observations, AS ALWAYS. I am happy that you ARE BACk!! :love:

btw Did you, or any of the other posters, hear or read about the three-year-old child who fell into the pen with the painted African dogs at the Pittsburgh Zoo? I supposed we had a lot of news coverage being from PA - but it was a terrible tragedy.

I could not help thinking of those African dogs, and how they may resemble Direwolves. But then I remembered that Arya says a direwolf, her Nymeria particularly, do not eat babies. So the direwolves of House Stark may not have attacked the toddler as did the African dogs.

But, you know, those AD looked cute on the television, and I am sure the little boy probably thought so as well, yes? Maybe he wanted to see them better?

Oh - I have to share another Zoo story of my own. At the Erie Zoo, which I visited every weekend with my grandfather, they housed an anciet African elephant named Eva. Well, we were allowed to feed her peanut peanuts, which she loved, but she was old, and sometimes she had a temper, which I did not unerstand as a child. So I teased her with a peanut!

Well - she started head butting the cage and trumpeting - and they evacuated the housed zoo section proper due to her rage!

I always felt guilty about that - I should have just let her have the stupid peanut!

About a year later, she kept having these outbursts- and I believe they may have put her down. However, I am not sure - and my parents kept such stuff from us because they did not want a pack of crying kids! :blushing:

[evita mgfs]

One of the themes of Martin's books is that you are able to live best in your own element. Find your place and don't leave it. Of course, life will always force you to do so. Cat is Riverlander to the bone. She loves Ned, she loves her children, but she has never loved the North, it never really become her place. Anyways the negative description reminds a little of Arya describing Braavosi weather, though Arya actually loves Braavos.

Cat siting with her back to weirwood is an interesting moment, it reminds me of her treatment of Jon.

First thing Ned always asks is how are children. Ned Stark is firs and foremost family man. More than he is a lord or Stark I think. I think that it was very hard for him when his old family (father, siblings even Rober and Jon Arryn) all died or left his life and he would have become a very sad man but there already were too little children that were his joy and responsibility at the end of the rebellion.

About Rickon, Ned frowned, he is concerned a little. I wonder if Shaggy was always too wild. Bran and Robb found the direwolves and they choose first which pup will be theirs. Even girls probably had some choice which female will belong to whom (And if Lady was tame and pretty and Nymeria fierce they probably wasn't arguing about it at all) Rickon had no choice.

Arya loves, Sansa is charmed. Arya is creature of strong and deep emotion, be it love or hate, Sansa is much more superficial in this, which makes her less vengeful, but she also rarely forms any strong bonds and is makes her worse judge of character. Only speculation on my part but I wonder if this also foreshadows their future romantic life. Sansa has the a crush every few moonturns but she never knows these men. Arya on the other hand...

Stark words are awesome! And yes they are different, and important, because winter is always coming, even at the beginning of spring.

Cat is afraid. People say that Arya and Cat are similar, in few ways they are, but this is very important part of their personalities that is polar opposite. Cat is ruled by fear. Even in this happy setting Cat have her heart full of doom and gloom. Granted, the royal visit turns out to be very bad for Starks, but Cat always feels like this. Her feelings for Jon are formed in large by fear he will endanger her children and fear that Ned loved someone more. She is almost unable to by happy because she is always afraid of things that will come.

:bowdown: :bowdown: ICE TURTLE: This is AMAZING! :agree: I also wanted to add that Cat spreads out her cloak so that she does not have to have contact with the ground, the humus, when she sits down. If it were me, I would have plopped my butt down on the earth - especially if I had a long dress on anyway. After all, Ned sits one a "moss covered" stone, which I think is a way to connect him with the earth, roots of trees, stone, rock, etc,, all those things Jojen tells Bran still remember what the First Men knew now long forgotten at Winterfell.

I also LOVE your assertion that CAT is AFRAID. YES! SPOT ON! [isn't this the crux of most prejudices? We fear that which we do not understand?] My shrink also said that ANGER is the child of FEAR. We only get angry when we have a fear - and you know, he is absolutely right. Everytime I feel angry now, I stop to rationalize my motivations, and it makes sense. My fears are insecurities, mostly - so when I feal threatened about what I believe is one of my own failings, I usually get angry!)

But - what I am trying to say is that your analysis is spot on, and very accurate in an analysis of Cat with a 'psycho-analytic' approach.

KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK, my dear! :love:

[ArabellaVidal]

So much to read up on! And in so few days! This discussion is rolling along great!

I just wanted to say that I'm sorry I've not been participating and may not do so for another three weeks. My in-laws have come for a long visit (groan!) and I barely have the time to lurk. So keep up the good work and I'll have to read a lot to catch up here!