AGoT Reread: Direwolves, Dragons [eggs], Momont’s Raven, and Cats, Oh My! Pets or Providence?

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Bit offtopic, but still related to Waymar Royce and the iron references:

Something else that points towards Bronze Yohn and his rune armour being important: Meera and Jojen swear their oath by earth and water, by bronze and iron, by ice and fire.

On a side note: The earth and water one is also interesting for the Arya water motif thread; Arya and Bran bringing earth and water, Sansa bringing Bronze Yohn, someone iron, and jon is ice and fire..

[The Lord's Kiss]

Ha! I can't believe they keep them on.. That's wonderful Evita thanks for sharing. :)

[redriver]

AGoT Prologue

POV: Will

Appearing: Gared, Waymar Royce, Will

Prologue takes place during a “ranging” (if we can call the patrols of three NW man “ranging”) beyond the Wall. Before the first conversation begins, Will has found a group of wildlings, all dead. (Though we do not see that, they’ve been displayed rather dramatically on the show.) Gared and Will try to convince their commander, Ser Waymar Royce, to head back to the wall and report it, as their job is now done and the said wildlings wouldn’t trouble them anymore.

Ser Waymar continuously mocks them about their reluctance to pursue the patrol and hints of unease. Will can see that this hurts Gared’s pride as he’s been a man of the NW for 40 years and wasn’t accustomed to take orders from “green boys.”

However, Will also observes that Gared does indeed feel uneasy, and shares these feelings himself.

Then the chapter gives us brief information about Ser Waymar of House Royce. He’s the youngest son of an ancient house which apparently has got too many heirs. He’s described as:

Now, this may sound a tad crackpot but bear with me. Can’t say much about “graceful” and “handsome,” but “slender” and “grey eyed” screams Stark look to me. It has been made clear (in ASoS, I think?) that House Royce and House Stark indeed has blood relations through Edwyle Stark and an unnamed lady of House Royce. Furthermore, when Brandon Stark went to King’s Landing, Kyle Royce was a member of his party. And lastly, the words of House Royce is “We Remember.” The North remembers, anyone? Perhaps it’s just a coincidence or perhaps GRRM wanted to hint a connection between Starks (and their relatives) and the Others right from the Prologue. Just something to consider.

Back to the chapter summary…

Waymar Royce asks Will to tell him everything that he saw, with all the details. There we learn that Will was a poacher who was caught in Mallister land, and that it’s claimed no one else can move in the woods as quickly as he can.

The discussion continues for some time. Gared suggests that the cold must’ve killed those wildlings, and talks about “ice wind howling from the North” and forty foot deep snows. Will sides with Gared at first, but hesitates when Waymar asks him if he drew any watches this week. Will says that he had, and Waymar Royce asks about the state of the Wall during those watches. Will replies with “weeping.”

They ride into the night, though they dismount after a while and continue on foot. Once again Gared points out his uneasiness, and claims that there’s something wrong there in the darkness. Ser Waymar mocks him again, not taking his warnings seriously. Then Gared requests a fire, but Waymar denies him again, saying it would draw enemies. Of course by “enemies,” the young commander means wildlings, but Gared feels differently.

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but while fire kills wights, it doesn’t do any damage to the Others, am I right? But it’s entirely possible that they would shy away from it.

They reach the campsite afoot, and Will is shocked to see the wildlings’ bodies are gone. This time, it’s him who voices that something is wrong, yet Ser Waymar silences him too, and tells Will to get up and look for a fire.

This is clearly a reference to the Old Gods, even though the tree he was climbing was not a weirwood tree. And, those of you who’ve read the threads about the importance of iron in supernatural elements of ASOIAF will know that they’re somehow linked to keeping the dead in check. Iron swords in the crypts of Winterfell, Old Nan’s claim of the Others not liking iron, later in the books wights not rising after Jon binds them with iron chains… another coincidence or another hint?

Down below, Waymar Royce calls out and asks who goes there. The only sound they hear is the sound of the woods. (Rustling of leaves, an owl hooting…)

Will notes that he sees something with the corner of his eye;

I find this “white shadows” description interesting because; 1. Mel’s speech about shadows being the servants of R’hllor and how they can’t live in the dark (which I’m sure we’ll discuss later as the thread moves on), 2. Gilly later describes the Others exactly the same. As “white shadows.”

Waymar then calls out for Will and asks him if he sees anything. He also asks “Why is it so cold?” Is it the Others that bring the cold with them, or do they follow the cold? Sam wonders about this later, too. Will doesn’t answer.

Again, the description includes the word “shadow.” Interesting.

Waymar Royce instructs “it” to come no further. Will notes that he grew afraid now, because his voice cracked like a boy’s. He also observes that the wind had stopped, yet it was very cold.

The Other comes forward, making no sound as he walks. He was holding a queer sword in his hand, which Will thinks that it wasn’t human made.

Ser Waymar meets the other bravely and they start dueling. Will then sees the Other’s eyes. Blue, too blue to be humanly, “a blue that burned like ice.” More Others emerge from the shadows (at least five of them), and Will thinks that he should call out as it is his duty to do so, but he gets scared, and keeps hiding on the tree silently.

The Other and Ser Waymar keep fighting for a time. Will makes a note of how strange the sound of their blades crashing against each other is.

The sword of the Other is obviously no metal, as Will speculates earlier. I’ve no guess as to what it could be, yet I’ve a crackpot theory about that material (and the armor of the Others) being somewhat of an anti-dragonglass. A sort of material that can only be found in the Lands of Always Winter, perhaps?

The fight continues until Ser Waymar is wounded, and finally, his steel shatters. Right before the blade shattered, though, the Other says something in a language that Will did not know (but he thought the Other sounded mocking.) Is this the tongue of the First Men which some wildlings and giants still speak? Or is it a language unique to the Others?

The “watchers” (the Others who were watching the fight) move forward towards Waymar Royce, who’s now on his knees. The swords rise and fall, all in silence. Will describes this as “cold butchery.” He covers his eyes and keeps hiding. When he looked again, the area was empty.

Will climbs down and finds only the body of Waymar Royce. The Others had vanished. He notes how young he looks in death, and takes his shattered blade, thinking to show it as a proof when he makes back to the Wall.

One more crackpot theory of mine. Later on, when Jon kills a wight, they note that the wight knew where to find the Lord Commander. Melisandre goes on and on about how “the bones remember.” Is it possible that when people become wights, they aren’t entirely “gone”? If so, perhaps Waymar Royce was angry at Will for not coming to help him? Just something to think about.

The chapter ends with Waymar-wight reaching out to Will, his fingers closing around Will’s throat. Gloved in the finest moleskin and sticky with blood, yet the touch is still “icy cold.

ETA: This is my very first re-read summary post. Ever. So I hope I did okay. Be nice, you lot. :blushing:

Well done and thanks for kicking things off so nicely.Nice find about the Royce/Stark connection.

For me,it was addiction from page 1.I had to keep turning those pages!.Very easy to read,great storytelling,but so rich in detail.

The sense of foreboding from Will and Gared,in contrast to Waymar's youthful arrogance set the scene for Royce's demise.Lots of references to cold and a bit of understatement when the Others arrive-"It was very cold".Indeed!

On the subject of the Other's sword,yes I think it's possible that it's made of the same material they are-Ice and life.There are several references in the books that the Others can manifest as a cold mist.One theory is that Sam did not kill the Other with his obsidian dagger,he destroyed it's body,but it's essence fled as a cold,white mist.

On a foreshadowing note,I'm going to highlight the first description of the Other-"Tall it was,and gaunt and hard as old bones,with flesh pale as milk."-because a very similar description of a Stark crops up in a subsequent chapter.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Well done and thanks for kicking things off so nicely.Nice find about the Royce/Stark connection.

For me,it was addiction from page 1.I had to keep turning those pages!.Very easy to read,great storytelling,but so rich in detail.

The sense of foreboding from Will and Gared,in contrast to Waymar's youthful arrogance set the scene for Royce's demise.Lots of references to cold and a bit of understatement when the Others arrive-"It was very cold".Indeed!

On the subject of the Other's sword,yes I think it's possible that it's made of the same material they are-Ice and life.There are several references in the books that the Others can manifest as a cold mist.One theory is that Sam did not kill the Other with his obsidian dagger,he destroyed it's body,but it's essence fled as a cold,white mist.

On a foreshadowing note,I'm going to highlight the first description of the Other-"Tall it was,and gaunt and hard as old bones,with flesh pale as milk."-because a very similar description of a Stark crops up in a subsequent chapter.

I can't recall.. Which Stark would that be? Bran after his fall? Ned?

[Little Wing]

Aw, those squirrels are the cutest - how did they keep still for the photos I wonder...

Manderly's Rat Cook: I couldn't agree more with you about all the warnings and premonitions in the Prologue - guess that's why I like it so much, the tension is incredible though ever so slightly hinted at. This line speaks volumes for instance: "A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and made the trees rustle like living things." Everything around them is warning them that something dangerous is coming, the elements, the animals, the instinct they feel, but for Royce's silliness...

As for Bran's chapter, lemme just take something off my chest first:

Bran :wub: Jon :wub:

Ned :bawl: Robb :bawl: Theon saying "Freak" :crying:

There... all better now.

Evita, I agree with you that Summer already showed how finely tuned he is to Bran - squirming in fear when Bran was afraid that Theon would take Summer and kill him, and then snuggling relaxed against Bran when the danger ended. They were meant for each other! And Summer was the example for the rest of the direwolves.

About Ned breaking the spell of silent knowledge and fear after removing the antler - everyone obviously saw this as an omen of Baratheon/Stark conflict and didn't dare speak until Ned's casual reference to how she stayed alive long enough to whelp. And if she really was dead when she whelped - could she have been warged in order to whelp?

Jon is so perceptive :wub: but it really is weird how he "heard" Ghost in the distance when no one else could. Robb was so authoritative and Bran was so sweet.... Theon was an ass ... <_<

And we've seen an example of Old Nan's tales going a bit too far, when Bran remembers her stories about the wildlings - that they were slavers and that they drank blood.

“One day, Bran, you will be a greenseer, sitting a weirwood throne of your own for the old gods of the North, and justice will belong to you.When that day comes, you must take no vengeance for personal reasons, but neither must you shirk your duties as part of the godhood.A god who hides behind the face of a weirwood tree soon forgets what death is.”

Oh, and I liked this, Evita. Hopefully, Bran will remember his father's words. I'm sure he will.

The Lord's Kiss: That observation of the she-direwolf and Ned is awesome, could very well be a case of foreshadowing, the only thing that it's a female wolf, but still a nice catch!

[redriver]

I can't recall.. Which Stark would that be? Bran after his fall? Ned?

It occurs in Bran's 3EC coma dream.

[evita mgfs]

CHEF SQUIRREL:http://ladyevyta.tumblr.com/post/35080365818/chef-squirrel-starring-sneezy

COWBOY SQUIRREL AND SQUIRREL FAMOUS:http://ladyevyta.tumblr.com/post/35080320499/stylin-squirrel-starring-sneezy-cowboy-squirrel

STEELER SQUIRREL and ELECTION DAY SQUIRREL:http://ladyevyta.tumblr.com/post/35080264541/steelers-squirrel-starring-sneezy-election-day :lol:

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

On a foreshadowing note,I'm going to highlight the first description of the Other-"Tall it was,and gaunt and hard as old bones,with flesh pale as milk."-because a very similar description of a Stark crops up in a subsequent chapter.

It occurs in Bran's 3EC coma dream.

Oh wow. Suddenly I'm even more suspicious about CoTF and Bloodraven. And I was pretty suspicious to begin with.

[evita mgfs]

Well done and thanks for kicking things off so nicely.Nice find about the Royce/Stark connection.

For me,it was addiction from page 1.I had to keep turning those pages!.Very easy to read,great storytelling,but so rich in detail.

The sense of foreboding from Will and Gared,in contrast to Waymar's youthful arrogance set the scene for Royce's demise.Lots of references to cold and a bit of understatement when the Others arrive-"It was very cold".Indeed!

On the subject of the Other's sword,yes I think it's possible that it's made of the same material they are-Ice and life.There are several references in the books that the Others can manifest as a cold mist.One theory is that Sam did not kill the Other with his obsidian dagger,he destroyed it's body,but it's essence fled as a cold,white mist.

On a foreshadowing note,I'm going to highlight the first description of the Other-"Tall it was,and gaunt and hard as old bones,with flesh pale as milk."-because a very similar description of a Stark crops up in a subsequent chapter.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: REDRIVER: I really, really, really like this. My mind is spinning with the implications - even concerning Jon's "resurrection" if he is indeed dead, and even if he is not, Jon in Ghost is the ESSENCE of Jon - so if his essence lives on, this means Jon, symbolically and literally, IS not DEAD, even if he is DEAD. Follow??

Now my mind is running so fast, but I think of V6S and his vision of life-after death. What if the CotF are the good side, the Others the evil side. This whole "essence" thing is proven when V6S dies, is it not? The CotF are part of FIRE; they even have a Targ/Stark mix sitting the weirwood throne in BR. Then the Others are the ICE component? Separated from the CotF at some point?

Again, I really, really, really like this idea. Brilliant! :thumbsup:

I devoured like a direwolf on a bone, cracking it for the marrow, the novels when I first began. I pulled a few all nighters because I could not put them down, and then when I realized just HOW Martin is a GENIUS, it made the rereads such a virtual treasure hunt. :read:

Now rereading yet again, for the 6th time, I see even more than I saw before. His words are such a tapestry of metaphor, personification, characterization, and more. He must have planned this for years, or else he must be just that brilliant. Yes? :dunno:

[redriver]

Yes he's brilliant-as much a long and detailed puzzle as a story.

I have to forewarn you Evita,you're not going to like my theories on Jon and Ghost!! :ack:

[redriver]

Oh wow. Suddenly I'm even more suspicious about CoTF and Bloodraven. And I was pretty suspicious to begin with.

I should clarify, it occurs in the coma dream in relation to Jon.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Aw, those squirrels are the cutest - how did they keep still for the photos I wonder...

Manderly's Rat Cook: I couldn't agree more with you about all the warnings and premonitions in the Prologue - guess that's why I like it so much, the tension is incredible though ever so slightly hinted at. This line speaks volumes for instance: "A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and made the trees rustle like living things." Everything around them is warning them that something dangerous is coming, the elements, the animals, the instinct they feel, but for Royce's silliness...

As for Bran's chapter, lemme just take something off my chest first:

Bran :wub: Jon :wub:

Ned :bawl: Robb :bawl: Theon saying "Freak" :crying:

There... all better now.

The Lord's Kiss: That observation of the she-direwolf and Ned is awesome, could very well be a case of foreshadowing, the only thing that it's a female wolf, but still a nice catch!

Yeah the whole chapter makes you uncomfortable, and wanting to hide under your bed.

I made some nice observations in Bran's chapter, but I don't know if I should post now, or wait till tomorrow..

It occurs in Bran's 3EC coma dream.

I see... yeah I think some of the Starks are heading towards Ice side..

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: REDRIVER: I really, really, really like this. My mind is spinning with the implications - even concerning Jon's "resurrection" if he is indeed dead, and even if he is not, Jon in Ghost is the ESSENCE of Jon - so if his essence lives on, this means Jon, symbolically and literally, IS not DEAD, even if he is DEAD. Follow??

Now my mind is running so fast, but I think of V6S and his vision of life-after death. What if the CotF are the good side, the Others the evil side. This whole "essence" thing is proven when V6S dies, is it not? The CotF are part of FIRE; they even have a Targ/Stark mix sitting the weirwood throne in BR. Then the Others are the ICE component? Separated from the CotF at some point?

Again, I really, really, really like this idea. Brilliant! :thumbsup:

I devoured like a direwolf on a bone, cracking it for the marrow, the novels when I first began. I pulled a few all nighters because I could not put them down, and then when I realized just HOW Martin is a GENIUS, it made the rereads such a virtual treasure hunt. :read:

Now rereading yet again, for the 6th time, I see even more than I saw before. His words are such a tapestry of metaphor, personification, characterization, and more. He must have planned this for years, or else he must be just that brilliant. Yes?

I personally think the CotF might well be on the side of the Others and Ice. I think they speak the same tongue (the True Tongue) and know a lot about each other, and there's definitely more to the Others. The blood sacrifice that Bran sees in ADwD definitely is something to chew on regarding the Old Gods.

Shall I post my Bran observations now, or wait till tomorrow?

[Little Wing]

On the subject of the Other's sword,yes I think it's possible that it's made of the same material they are-Ice and life.There are several references in the books that the Others can manifest as a cold mist.One theory is that Sam did not kill the Other with his obsidian dagger,he destroyed it's body,but it's essence fled as a cold,white mist.

Yay! Someone agrees with me on this! I really like the idea of the Others being their own weapons. A for the Others looking similar to a certain "dead" person...yeah, could be foreshadowing...who knows.

Evita, about the CotF and their connection to the Others - it has been discussed on Heresy for some time now - shall we get into all that (wood dancers being the military faction of the Children, that mayhaps became the Others) or stick with the chapter?

[Little Wing]

Shall I post my Bran observations now, or wait till tomorrow?

I think you were right when you said it's too late to go back now :laugh: post away, methinks!

But I do think we should take it a bit slower next time...

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Yay! Someone agrees with me on this! I really like the idea of the Others being their own weapons. A for the Others looking similar to a certain "dead" person...yeah, could be foreshadowing...who knows.

Evita, about the CotF and their connection to the Others - it has been discussed on Heresy for some time now - shall we get into all that (wood dancers being the military faction of the Children, that mayhaps became the Others) or stick with the chapter?

Hey! I agreed too! ;) I posted before that I think that because they're made of super-ice they can only use weapons of the same material/part of them, cause wvery normal material shatters under their touch.

[evita mgfs]

Yes he's brilliant-as much a long and detailed puzzle as a story.

I have to forewarn you Evita,you're not going to like my theories on Jon and Ghost!! :ack:

REDRIVER: They both will die? :ack: I want to know to be prepared, so please share. I read somewhere, speculation-wise, that only Arya and Tyrion are slated to survive. THAT IS NOT GOSPEL. I cannot remember where I read it, and I think they were drawing analogies about what Martin has said in interviews; that is, Arya is his wife's favorite character, and Tyrion is Martin's favorite character.

You must tell now - please? I need to know! :blushing:

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I think you were right when you said it's too late to go back now :laugh: post away, methinks!

But I do think we should take it a bit slower next time...

Haha yeah, it's all messed up anyway now, and I'm excited about my findings :P

I stuck to the animals :) And left the horses out, because they just seem to be there, nothing more :P

Bran:

Theon Greyjoy said, "There's not been a direwolf sighted south of the Wall in two hundred years."

The last dragon died during the reign of Aegon III, somewhere between 131-157 AL, which is roughly 150 years before AgoT, is it possible the Direwolves extinguished south of the Wall with the Dragons? Or at least the healthy dragons..

His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow. "I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell.

"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales . . . maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."

"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."

So perhaps the pups are born 'with the dead', the same as the Stark kids' power awakens when the dead come walking. The same as (probably) Jon Snow was born from a dying Lyanna. The same as Bran opening his third eye in the crypts amidst the dead. The same as Arya's warg powers awake in the House of Black and White, the house of death. The same as Jon's true powers will probably awake now he's either almost dead, or truly dead. Interesting...

[evita mgfs]

Yay! Someone agrees with me on this! I really like the idea of the Others being their own weapons. A for the Others looking similar to a certain "dead" person...yeah, could be foreshadowing...who knows.

Evita, about the CotF and their connection to the Others - it has been discussed on Heresy for some time now - shall we get into all that (wood dancers being the military faction of the Children, that mayhaps became the Others) or stick with the chapter?

LITTLE WING: You must tell! Why not? I want to learn EVERYTHING! No fair you and Redriver holding out on us! :crying: :bawl:

I am teasing, of course. But yes, I think it is appropriate. The others could be animalistic - and they keep wights like pets. So it is on point. Yes? :dunce:

[redriver]

I'll PM you a link.But don't worry too much.

It seems I'm in a club of one with this!!!

[Little Wing]

Hey! I agreed too! ;) I posted before that I think that because they're made of super-ice they can only use weapons of the same material/part of them, cause wvery normal material shatters under their touch.

Sorry... :dunce: But it's nice we are on the same wave length ;)

Haha yeah, it's all messed up anyway now, and I'm excited about my findings :P

I stuck to the animals :) And left the horses out, because they just seem to be there, nothing more :P

Bran:

Theon Greyjoy said, "There's not been a direwolf sighted south of the Wall in two hundred years."

The last dragon died during the reign of Aegon III, somewhere between 131-157 AL, which is roughly 150 years before AgoT, is it possible the Direwolves extinguished south of the Wall with the Dragons? Or at least the healthy dragons..

His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow. "I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell.

"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales . . . maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."

"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."

So perhaps the pups are born 'with the dead', the same as the Stark kids' power awakens when the dead come walking. The same as (probably) Jon Snow was born from a dying Lyanna. The same as Bran opening his third eye in the crypts amidst the dead. The same as Arya's warg powers awake in the House of Black and White, the house of death. The same as Jon's true powers will probably awake now he's either almost dead, or truly dead. Interesting...

Yes, the dragons could be the Fire's representatives, as direwolves are Ice's. They come and they go together mayhaps? :unsure:

Your second observation is great! I like it! Death not being the end but a source of power... How cool is that? Melissandra, eat your heart out!

Um, we can go all crazy with theories, yeah, I'm always up for that, just don't want our discussion to go all over the place and drown in chaos... but, what is dead may never die, so carry on...don't mind my grumpiness :D