Littlefinger Appreciation

[ab aeterno]

You see the trolleys as reasons? I see them as armies that do the killing. He can't physically move the trolleys. He has no control over them. And if the reactions of Robb and Stannis are due to LF's actions, then they are both tools. And I prefer butterbumps' reasoning that Stannis is not someone to be fooled by LF.

1) No, I am referring to the Trolley Problem. They are not physical they are metaphorical.

2) You don't have to be a tool for your reaction to be a function of someone else's action.

3) I have never said that Stannis was fooled. I don't know where you got that idea from. I said that Stannis' actions were a result of LF betraying Ned in the near term and LF actions again Jon Arryn, Tyrion and Ned in the longer term.

Out of curiosity, who do you blame for the First World War? Gavrilo Princip? lol...

In this case it would be a flawed comparison. There was no one factor that started the First World War. Your argument about Robb and Stannis would be like blaming Britain for defending Belgium.

There were many causes for the WoT5K, but LF instigated a great number of them. In fact the only short to medium term cause that he wasn't responsible for was Cersei and Jaime's incest.

[butterbumps!]

I prefer to look at it as: if the more elegant solution of, say, using Laplace's transform to solve your differential equation is not performed, you have to settle for something as crude as trial and error. If Varys comes out on top his 'solution', if we see the game of thrones as a problem, will be the right solution and the only one.

lol, I'm really not an engineer and don't calculate vibration forces typically. But I get what you're saying, and I don't really view it like that. I think that this sort of thinking becomes easily extensible to commending Roose, Tywin and the Freys for "winning" with the RW by any means available, and other such determinations. I guess I'm not looking at this as "last man standing" = "right" solution.

[straits]

1) No, I am referring to the Trolley Problem. They are not physical they are metaphorical.

2) You don't have to be a tool for your reaction to be a function of someone else's action.

3) I have never said that Stannis was fooled. I don't know where you got that idea from. I said that Stannis' actions were a result of LF betraying Ned in the near term and LF actions again Jon Arryn, Tyrion and Ned in the longer term.

In this case it would be a flawed comparison. There was no one factor that started the First World War. Your argument about Robb and Stannis would be like blaming Britain for defending Belgium.

There were many causes for the WoT5K, but LF instigated a great number of them. In fact the only short to medium term cause that he wasn't responsible for was Cersei and Jaime's incest.

It comes back to the day when Ned was arrested. LF did not need to do anything in order for Ned to be arrested. If we can't agree there we can't agree anywhere.

Ned's eventual death is what kicked Robb into action. So we've already confirmed that LF is not to blame for this, only through inaction (can't stress enough that he is not morally obliged to do anything for Ned). Stannis would have acted anyways, because he knew the truth about the incest. So he would have come a'riding to King's Landing for the throne in any case. Was LF supposed to depose Cercei because it is the right thing to do?

So LF did not cause Robb, or Stannis, to do battle.

[straits]

lol, I'm really not an engineer and don't calculate vibration forces typically. But I get what you're saying, and I don't really view it like that. I think that this sort of thinking becomes easily extensible to commending Roose, Tywin and the Freys for "winning" with the RW by any means available, and other such determinations. I guess I'm not looking at this as "last man standing" = "right" solution.

The Red Wedding was poetic. Not poetically just, or in any way nice. But all of these players involved in RW had the physical leverage, the handle on the violence, the do or die decision. LF never had any of that. Not when Ned was arrested, not when Tyrion was, and not when Renly died. I get that LF is accountable but I assert that the blame he carries is limited by the 5 kings' blame. But what we argued was LF's character I guess, not his accountability. So you made your point and I understand why you look at him the way you do :D

[ab aeterno]

It comes back to the day when Ned was arrested. LF did not need to do anything in order for Ned to be arrested. If we can't agree there we can't agree anywhere.

If Littlefinger had done nothing (i.e.) had not promised to support Ned then Ned might have acted differently, might have taken up Renly's offer out of necessity. LF didn't do nothing, he actively deceived Ned for LF's own gain.

Ned's eventual death is what kicked Robb into action.

This is provably wrong. Robb went to war to rescue Ned from KL. Robb and Cat make this point repeatedly and they go to war long before Ned is killed.

So we've already confirmed that LF is not to blame for this, only through inaction (can't stress enough that he is not morally obliged to do anything for Ned).

Legally obliged? Yes? Morally? No, though it's difficult to argue that LF only caused this through inaction because as I have said he assured Ned that LF would support Ned. This changes Ned's actions almost certainly.

Stannis would have acted anyways, because he knew the truth about the incest. So he would have come a'riding to King's Landing for the throne in any case.

Without LF turning against Ned we can't say any of this with certainty. Ned might have held the throne with Renly or at least not put himself into a situation where he was surrounded in the throne room. Stannis would still have marched perhaps, but with Ned not arrested or with Renly's support things play out differently. LF actively worked with Cersei to stop Ned crowning Stannis, without LF support and that of the Gold Cloaks Cersei might have fled. We can't know for certain but LF had a hand in all these things. They would have played out differently if he had helped or if he had done nothing, but he didn't do nothing.

Was LF supposed to depose Cercei because it is the right thing to do?

So your argument is that LF isn't immoral because he had no obligation to do "the right thing?"

Personally I have only been talking about practical responsibility, not moral culpability.

So LF did not cause Robb, or Stannis, to do battle.

Yes he did, Robb especially but Stannis as well.

[butterbumps!]

So you made your point and I understand why you look at him the way you do :D

lol. Is that my cue to stop railing on LF? I didn't even get to expand on my morality argument.