Littlefinger Appreciation

[Nudu]

Ok you beat me :D But he gaind loads of things with almost no resourses. He has almost no advantage by birth but he gained a lord paramouncy, a regency of one and a possible alliance with anither(north)

[straits]

Robb may have killed a few dozen people at best, Stannis may have killed a few as well. Neither of them directly killed thousands. Their armies did. That is little different from LF causing thousands of deaths only that LF started the wars.

Robb went to war because of what LF did: LF caused Jon Arryn's death thereby making Ned Hand and setting the Starks against the Lannisters. LF manipulated Cat into taking Tyrion prisoner therefore being responsible for Ned's injury and the devastation in the Riverlands. LF betrayed Ned leading to Ned's imprisonment and Robb's causes for war. (To free Ned and save RR- LF was responsible for Riverrun's situation as well as Ned's.) This all falls on LF.

Stannis would have been on the throne had it not been for Littlefinger, LF directly prevented this by betraying Ned.

Actually LF directly secured his position by betraying Ned. Ned was not going to come out on top no matter what, since he declined Renly's offer. The city was against him through no fault of LF. In order for Stannis and Ned to succeed in that situation, they would have needed LF; not his inaction, not for him to step out of it. They would have needed him as an accomplice. And he has the right to pick his side. So he at worst indirectly prevented Stannis from taking the throne.

[ab aeterno]

Actually LF directly secured his position by betraying Ned. Ned was not going to come out on top no matter what, since he declined Renly's offer. The city was against him through no fault of LF. In order for Stannis and Ned to succeed in that situation, they would have needed LF; not his inaction, not for him to step out of it. They would have needed him as an accomplice. And he has the right to pick his side. So he at worst indirectly prevented Stannis from taking the throne.

And he turn against Ned, leading to his arrest which in turn led to to Robb going to war...

[Jon AS]

Sorry, forgot about Lysa. But I don't think he desires his name to be highlighted in the so called end credits, he just wants to reap the fruits of wherever he is now. And even if he does take credit in the end, the players in his game do not have an insight into the story that we as readers do. Appearances.

I shouldn't have written "he". But if one calls him a brilliant schemer because of his successes, one also has to hold him responsible for all the bad that has come from his schemes.

[straits]

Robb may have killed a few dozen people at best, Stannis may have killed a few as well. Neither of them directly killed thousands. Their armies did.

It is no different from LF. And yet we all love Robbie.

[ab aeterno]

Ok you beat me :D But he gaind loads of things with almost no resourses. He has almost no advantage by birth but he gained a lord paramouncy, a regency of one and a possible alliance with anither(north)

Granted he is a pretty darn impressive operator! Just no less vicious than anyone else!

[ab aeterno]

It is no different from LF. And yet we all love Robbie.

It's about why. Robb went to war to rescue his father and his grandfather. LF started a massive war because he wanted more power and partly because he resented the great houses, it seems.

But I was only arguing that LF was no better than the high lords, but can be found more culpable as he started the whole thing.

[straits]

I shouldn't have written "he". But if one calls him a brilliant schemer because of his successes, one also has to hold him responsible for all the bad that has come from his schemes.

One does not. Not as an observer in aSoIaF. A reader maybe. I admit he's responsible for a lot of stuff, though none of it directly. The bottom line is that he is one man with 0 retinue.

[ab aeterno]

One does not. Not as an observer in aSoIaF. A reader maybe. I admit he's responsible for a lot of stuff, though none of it directly. The bottom line is that he is one man with 0 retinue.

He has a network of informers though and uses money to keep people in his stead. The former similar to Varys and the latter similar to Tywin.

[straits]

It's about why. Robb went to war to rescue his father and his grandfather. LF started a massive war because he wanted more power and partly because he resented the great houses, it seems.

But I was only arguing that LF was no better than the high lords, but can be found more culpable as he started the whole thing.

You hold a gun to someone's head and pull the trigger, it does not matter to the victim why you're doing this, dead is dead. He is no more and no less vicious than the other participants in the game of thrones. And no more accountable. Which is what I thought people claimed, that he's to blame for everything.

[ab aeterno]

You hold a gun to someone's head and pull the trigger, it does not matter to the victim why you're doing this, dead is dead. He is no more and no less vicious than the other participants in the game of thrones. And no more accountable. Which is what I thought people claimed, that he's to blame for everything.

That's a very skewed view of morality. Littlefinger started everything and he did so intentionally. Varys might have done so later but he wasn't ready when LF did it.

Robb Stark and Stannis might have been steering the trolleys but it was LF who set them in motion.

[straits]

That's a very skewed view of morality. Littlefinger started everything and he did so intentionally. Varys might have done so later but he wasn't ready when LF did it.

Robb Stark and Stannis might have been steering the trolleys but it was LF who set them in motion.

No. I would not enter a war and claim that what I do is because some asshole instigated it. LF did not set the trolleys in motion. He gave the people who have power over these trolleys a reason to set them in motion. These people did not have to move the damn trolleys. Certainly not over so many innocent people.

[butterbumps!]

You raise a lot of great points! So who would you say is smarter than him, discounting Varys? Just wondering.

Varys for sure, Tyrion, and I'm going to hazard the guesses of Stannis, Davos (he's the guy who would really pay attention to this asshole), Jon, Mance, Sam, Roose Bolton (which pains me to say), and I'm thinking Sansa and Arya soon enough. I think these people would all see through him, as well as the fact that these people have intelligence that I admire. So I listed people who are either more intelligent, and/or people who would not fall for his stupid plots.

I think your talent reason ties in with your moral reason here - his overly destructive inelegant schemes are not there because he is incapable of subtlety; they are overly destructive because as far as his effort is concerned, it is the path of least resistance, i.e. the easiest thing to do. Elegance and complexity is often unnecessary. If he achieved what he desired, it does not matter how he went about it ( I am not saying the end justifies the means, I'm aware that he is an asshole; nothing good will come out of what he does). Additionally, you would not like LF even if he was incredibly elegant with his schemes. Because of his lack of moral standing.

Nah, they're two separate things. His moral scruples are one thing; nothing is too base or dishonorable. It can bleed into my intelligence categorization in terms of taking the easy route, but I really meant them as two separate issues.

The man is not subtle. He's beside himself with glee when he describes his naughtiness to Sansa. He is beside himself with glee when he thinks he's outsmarted Tyrion regarding dagger-gate (to Tyrion's face, mind you). He's beside himself with visible anger to Tyrion when he realizes that Tyrion outsmarted him. He cannot keep a straight face when Tyrion offers him the prospect of Harrenhal, betraying how badly he wants it.

As someone who does deal with a type of designing for a living, I can say that elegance and complexity are not unnecessary. Complexity is different than complicated- complexity is richness and integration; complicated is messy, not organic, not disciplined, not developed. Complicated are Cersei plots. Elegance is an adjacent condition, and it's about streamlining, being economical, being edited, disciplined, subtle, and it's much, much harder to make something elegant than overly complicated. LF's big plots are complicated and inelegant. The only reason they "work" is because no one typically bothers to scrutinized LF's actions. It's an issue of low-cunning versus being a mastermind.

I would actually like LF if he had "swag," were a real mastermind, were not a piss-ant. I am really into Varys. I even have a grudging respect for Roose. Actually, I like all sorts of morally bankrupt characters in this series and others. I don't respect his style of plotting.

I am not sure about your schoolboy analogy - would you take a bullied schoolboy to the side and explain to him why his behavior is the height of hypocrisy and why the bully is in fact potentially a better person than him? His love story ended a short while after he got his ass beaten by Brandon. This defined his youth.

I disagree. He was not bullied. Like an idiot, he challenged a fully grown man to a duel once, and summarily got his ass kicked. He brought that on himself. I also contest the "love story" aspect of this. I do not believe that he was ever "in love" with Cat as you're using the term.

I agree with your persona reasons with regards to his adequacy for leadership. But dumber people reigned longer anyways. It is not like he is not up for the task. It all leads back to his moral standing.

I know that dumber people reign, but that does not make LF smart by default. Low cunning versus mastermind. I'm not calling him stupid, I just think this idea that he's some sort of architect of brilliant plans is a fallacy. And honestly, I do not think he has what it takes to rule. I'm interested in seeing how he fares now that he's in the limelight, because his MO really only works from behind the scenes.

Also, I can only commend bumps!, once again. She seems to have that elusive 'win the thread' button somewhere, along with tze and a small number of other posters.

lol, thanks. I'm quite committed to the "LF is not a mastermind" cause.

[Frey Pie]

naaa....dont like him. I appreciate is villany and thats it

[Jon AS]

One does not. Not as an observer in aSoIaF. A reader maybe. I admit he's responsible for a lot of stuff, though none of it directly. The bottom line is that he is one man with 0 retinue.

You're saying that if a person instigates murder and spreads misinformation in order to start a war, with the goal of advancing his or her own position in the ensuing chaos, and that person succeeds with this, it's okay to give said person credit for the success but also to absolve him/her of all blame for the war? I just don't see how. The two go hand in hand: the advancement would not have been possible without the murder and destruction, and those would not have happened if the person had not actively worked towards them.

[ab aeterno]

No. I would not enter a war and claim that what I do is because some asshole instigated it. LF did not set the trolleys in motion. He gave the people who have power over these trolleys a reason to set them in motion. These people did not have to move the damn trolleys. Certainly not over so many innocent people.

Firstly, Robb isn't claiming that it is LF fault, I am.

I really have to wonder if you are kidding? Littlefinger manipulated everything to start a war for his own benefit. He set the trolleys in motion, regardless of whether Robb or Stannis made bad decisions the trolleys were already moving. The other characters have responsibility for what they did, but Littlefinger was the original cause of everything, he set events in motion and he didn't do it once or accidentally he did it repeatedly an intentionally. By your logic we should blame Britain for starting the First World War.

Littlefinger's was the action the other characters decisions were the reactions that is why LF set the trolleys in motion while Robb, Stannis et al only steered them.

[straits]

As someone who does deal with a type of designing for a living, I can say that elegance and complexity are not unnecessary. Complexity is different than complicated- complexity is richness and integration; complicated is messy, not organic, not disciplined, not developed. Complicated are Cersei plots. Elegance is an adjacent condition, and it's about streamlining, being economical, being edited, disciplined, subtle, and it's much, much harder to make something elegant than overly complicated. LF's big plots are complicated and inelegant. The only reason they "work" is because no one typically bothers to scrutinized LF's actions. It's an issue of low-cunning versus being a mastermind.

Yay, I love mechanical engineers! But if elegance comes in the way of practicality, you don't need it. Again, what matters is that the plots work. When they fail, you can blame it on his inelegance.

[straits]

Firstly, Robb isn't claiming that it is LF fault, I am.

I really have to wonder if you are kidding? Littlefinger manipulated everything to start a war for his own benefit. He set the trolleys in motion, regardless of whether Robb or Stannis made bad decisions the trolleys were already moving. The other characters have responsibility for what they did, but Littlefinger was the original cause of everything, he set events in motion and he didn't do it once or accidentally he did it repeatedly an intentionally. By your logic we should blame Britain for starting the First World War.

Littlefinger's was the action the other characters decisions were the reactions that is why LF set the trolleys in motion while Robb, Stannis et al only steered them.

You see the trolleys as reasons? I see them as armies that do the killing. He can't physically move the trolleys. He has no control over them. And if the reactions of Robb and Stannis are due to LF's actions, then they are both tools. And I prefer butterbumps' reasoning that Stannis is not someone to be fooled by LF.

Out of curiosity, who do you blame for the First World War? Gavrilo Princip? lol...

[butterbumps!]

Yay, I love mechanical engineers! But if elegance comes in the way of practicality, you don't need it. Again, what matters is that the plots work. When they fail, you can blame it on his inelegance.

oh, I'm not a mechanical engineer, but close I guess. But I see elegance and practicality as one in the same. The more elegant solution is the right solution (kind of like occam's razor). I don't mean elegance in the product, but a disciplined way of thinking that's right at the outset and creates something sustainable/ further developable. LF's schemes (and Cersei's as well) offend my sense of "good design."

[straits]

oh, I'm not a mechanical engineer, but close I guess. But I see elegance and practicality as one in the same. The more elegant solution is the right solution (kind of like occam's razor). I don't mean elegance in the product, but a disciplined way of thinking that's right at the outset and creates something sustainable/ further developable. LF's schemes (and Cersei's as well) offend my sense of "good design."

I prefer to look at it as: if the more elegant solution of, say, using Laplace's transform to solve your differential equation is not performed, you have to settle for something as crude as trial and error. If Varys comes out on top his 'solution', if we see the game of thrones as a problem, will be the right solution and the only one.