From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XV

[Groat]

Just some thoughts on LF...

I just read that the following are some marked traits of a sociopath:

* Egocentricity

* Callousness

* Impulsivity

* Conscience defect

* Exaggerated sexuality

* Excessive boasting

* Risk taking

* Inability to resist temptation

* Antagonistic

* Deprecating attitude toward the opposite sex

* Lack of interest in bonding with a mate.

LF definitely fits several of these. I also read something else that is interesting: "A sociopath prefers to play games and prove his cunning over society." This sentence could have been written about LF! From what I've read, he fits the definition of sociopath to a T - the charm, the risk taking, the egocentricity, the lack of empathy.

Now, one could go further and discuss whether LF is a sociopath or a psychopath. This gets tricky, because even specialists disagree on the precise definitions of each. However, I've just read something online that stuck out: "The last main difference between psychopathy and sociopathy is in the presentation. The psychopath is callous, yet charming. He or she will con and manipulate others with charisma and intimidation and can effectively mimic feelings to present as “normal” to society. The psychopath is organized in their criminal thinking and behavior, and can maintain good emotional and physical control, displaying little to no emotional or autonomic arousal, even under situations that most would find threatening or horrifying. The psychopath is keenly aware that what he or she is doing is wrong, but does not care." If we were going with this definition, I would say LF is a psychopath. Again, it could have been practically written about him.

As to whether or not the duel was purposeful... Both psychopaths and sociopaths are known to be impulsive. It is one of their defining traits. Due to this, I could see the duel being a mistake made by young LF, one that he tried to learn from. Yet at the same time, I could also see it as a ploy. LF has a sharp, low cunning. What is interesting here, to me, are his feelings for Catelyn. I don't think he ever loved Cat in a way that a normal person loves. I think that by this time he was already well-set towards his sociopathic/psychopathic tendencies. I think that he wanted to possess her - he may have wanted her love, yes, but that love was an object to him, not something to reciprocate but something to own. A powerful feeling - enough to drive him to do something stupid, possibly - but not love. This is why I cringe when people paint LF as a heartbroken innocent, rejected by the Bad Evil Catelyn. I just don't see it. The sociopathic tendencies are all there. I would say that LF is incapable of love.

To wrap this up: I cannot imagine LF and Sansa being together for countless reasons, and one of them is that LF is incapable of love. He may not always have been like this, but I would argue that he certainly is now. It is common in Westeros to be married to someone who does not love you. But to be married to someone who is actually incapable of the emotion? Sansa is a perceptive person, and she knows that something is clearly "off" about him. They are deeply incompatible due to his very nature. I would say that LF is clearly a sociopath or a psychopath, and that because of this there is no way to redeem him.

Sorry for the disorganized post. :blushing: And I apologize for it being more about LF than Sansa!

I agree with both of you that Sansa has certain inspirational qualities. Also, I think it is ironic that LF is so determined to claim Sansa when he's actually blind to who she is and what she wants and needs. Just further proof that (to him) she is something to possess, not someone to truly love.

That sounds like GRRM read that while thinking of the character LF. I agree with you, I think his challenge was more impulse, and if we're going with the idea LF is a sociopath/psychopath he may not have realized the consequences of the challenge. One thing I know associated with sociopaths/psychopaths is delusions of grandeur (sound lie LF maybe). I also feel like every action he has taken with Sansa is also more impulse than game playing. He may have designs in her for his eventual plan (what ever that is), but rescuing her, teaching her the game, exposing her to his tactics, all screams too much risk. And once again we have LF dancing with a wolf, making impulsive decisions, all in the vain attempt to have his trophy Cat be his. Except this time the cut might actually kill him.

[SorrowfulWoman]

Next comes the question of whether LF was born or made. I honestly think that it is a combination of both. There had to be some underlying defect in him; life does not turn everyone into monsters. I think that it was likely a mix of nurture and nature. It is clear to me that something was always deeply wrong with LF - one does not simply "turn into" a person who pushes a woman out of the Moon Door, sells a little girl into prostitution, etc. Other characters in the series have gone through far worse than LF and retained their decency. At the same time, there were probably instances in his life that fanned the flames. A better person would have been able to recover from these instances, whatever they were - LF couldn't, because intrinsically, there is something wrong with him.

As to whether or not the duel was purposeful... Both psychopaths and sociopaths are known to be impulsive. It is one of their defining traits. Due to this, I could see the duel being a mistake made by young LF, one that he tried to learn from. Yet at the same time, I could also see it as a ploy. LF has a sharp, low cunning. What is interesting here, to me, are his feelings for Catelyn. I don't think he ever loved Cat in a way that a normal person loves. I think that by this time he was already well-set towards his sociopathic/psychopathic tendencies. I think that he wanted to possess her - he may have wanted her love, yes, but that love was an object to him, not something to reciprocate but something to own. A powerful feeling - enough to drive him to do something stupid, possibly - but not love. This is why I cringe when people paint LF as a heartbroken innocent, rejected by the Bad Evil Catelyn. I just don't see it. The sociopathic tendencies are all there. I would say that LF is incapable of love.

Yes! ^ all of this. There is most definitely something psychopathic about his relationship with Cat & the Tullys. What *is* his endgame?

And just to reiterate, the man is a professional pimp. He manipulates (potentially unwilling) young women for a living. Sansa is swimming in very deep waters here. The only reason I can see him being so forthcoming with her is because he:

1. is so confident in himself that he will win her over through grooming (great point, Milady);

2. thinks she is stupid and can't puzzle out his endgame;

3. believes she doesn't have anyone to turn to/tell this information.

And yes, LF has backed Sansa into a tidy little corner w/the HtH proposal. Unless an outside event happens which makes this plotline moot, Sansa will have to move the pieces, and play the game.

PS. Thanks for the warm welcome.

[brashcandy]

I also feel like every action he has taken with Sansa is also more impulse than game playing. He may have designs in her for his eventual plan (what ever that is), but rescuing her, teaching her the game, exposing her to his tactics, all screams too much risk. And once again we have LF dancing with a wolf, making impulsive decisions, all in the vain attempt to have his trophy Cat be his. Except this time the cut might actually kill him.

It may scream risk, but it's not impulsive :) Instead, the evidence in the text points to a determined and focused approach to getting her under his control and manipulating her emotions. Sure, he's adapted when met with obstacles like Cersei refusing his offer to marry her, or seized on opportunities as they presented themselves as with Dontos, but his underlying aim to secure her has never wavered it seems from that initial meeting.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

(And notice Cersei's AFFC proclamation that Sansa "will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss".

No, Caro, this is a direct allusion to Sandor.

(The Gravedigger of Quiet Isle) -_-

[1234567]

Except this time the cut might actually kill him.

I have always found it interesting that he has the scar straight down his body and that Sandor's MO for killing people is slicing them in half vertically and that he told Sansa if anyone tried to hurt her, he'd kill them.

[brashcandy]

The illustrious Ragnorak (he's paying me to say that) made a great assessment in the Arya reread thread on the importance of the the time the two sisters spent in KL which I'm reposting a part of below. BTW, doing this Arya reread is really helping to shed light on a lot of important details in Sansa's journey. These girls are often at opposite ends of fandom appreciation, but they truly are two sides of the same coin.

Syrio's lessons aren't just foreshadowing they're the beginnings of the very same lessons. Arya will be blinded by the FM as part of her training but Syrio has already had her practicing blindfolded. I was struck by how similar this is to her overall journey and how much her life has prepared her for that journey. She is in the guise of a boy to hide her true identity from the Lannisters just as she will be to escape KL. She travels wishing Nymeria were with her, crosses the water and then strips naked under the moon, reclaims her clothes and goes home but first she must establish her identity. Her time spent with the smallfolk in Winterfell and on the road has prepared her for hiding in Fleabottom as well as her time as a servant in Harrenhal. Sansa's time is a rather similar preparation. She maintains her courtesy armor in the face of her fear of the Hound. Even the death at the Tourney is essentially practice. She maintains her composure thinking he is nothing to her. She will watch Ned die and then learn of Robb and Cat's deaths. Both girls time in KL is preparation for their respective journeys.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

Friens, i need your help with the colour RED and TRUE WINE:

What that means for you True wine that Sandor offers to Sansa (in the chapter of the serpentine)..

Is that wine could be symbolic?

Could be emotions? I´m not sure:

"Do you like wine, little bird? true wine? ...red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman"

Sandor is more drunk of emotions that of alcohol, but..

What does it mean for you:TRUE WINE?

[brashcandy]

Friens, i need your help with the colour RED and TRUE WINE:

What that means for you True wine that Sandor offers to Sansa (in the chapter of the serpentine)..

Is that wine could be symbolic?

Could be emotions? I´m not sure:

"Do you like wine, little bird? true wine? ...red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman"

Sandor is more drunk of emotions that of alcohol, but..

What does it mean for you:TRUE WINE?

Here are the links to two analyses that were done on the serpentine scene:

K3's analysis

Milady's analysis

Hope this helps.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

The question of whether Sansa takes after her mother or father more is up for debate.

dEAR pOD:

As the great Sandor Clegane told to Arya:

"The wolf bitch wants to kill the pretty bird."

(inside of Sansa, her true nature "wants" destroy that which all the society built for her)

I think that Sansa is so like his father (wolf: kind, protector, warrior, swweet, with sense of honor , putting even love above of honor:Ned :wub: :frown5: :frown5: ) and as her mother too( more bitch than fish, rhyme and all! :lol:

more stone than water

And we know that Cat is a real bitch

(or a I must say the un-CAT ? :idea: ;))

-in the worst meaning of the word :devil: -when she wants...(or when she must..)

[Lummel]

When she wants what? A dog treat?

But

inside of Sansa, her true nature "wants" destroy that which all the society built for her

sounds interesting. What do you mean? Society has built a lot of things for her, what have you got in mind specifically?

[Little Red Riding Hood]

Oh, Lummel! you Not shocked by what I said about Cat.

Do you agree? .... ( :

[TerraPrime]

Honestly, if the sum total of your argument against Cat (and there are threads for those, but not this one) is to call her a bitch in different ways, you should probably stop trying.

[Ragnorak]

I want a longer title, I'm going have to start paying brash more.

Pod, I have not yet had a chance to read through your LF analysis (which seems excellent based on my casual browse so far) but I'll jump in on the duel.

Cat always thought that LF was sent away for the duel but later we learn that he was sent away for knocking up Lysa. That means the two must have been relatively close in time. Assuming BB is correct and it was a calculated choice, might it have been his way of dealing with a Lysa pregnant from his little finger? That would certainly get him sent home, would dump Lysa but have someone else take the blame, prevent him from being forced into a shotgun wedding, create a public enough affair to prevent any other immediate backlash against him for his indiscretion with Lysa, and that's just off the top of my head. Prior to BB mentioning it I had never gone back and questioned that part before, but Lysa's pregnancy seem the most likely candidate for a calculated challenge.

[Pod The Impaler]

Cat always thought that LF was sent away for the duel but later we learn that he was sent away for knocking up Lysa. That means the two must have been relatively close in time. Assuming BB is correct and it was a calculated choice, might it have been his way of dealing with a Lysa pregnant from his little finger? That would certainly get him sent home, would dump Lysa but have someone else take the blame, prevent him from being forced into a shotgun wedding, create a public enough affair to prevent any other immediate backlash against him for his indiscretion with Lysa, and that's just off the top of my head. Prior to BB mentioning it I had never gone back and questioned that part before, but Lysa's pregnancy seem the most likely candidate for a calculated challenge.

I thought his deflowering & knocking up Lysa came while he was in bed recovering from having lost his duel. Lysa stayed by his side taking care of him. As he lay there in a fever, Lysa slipped into his bed and had sex with him. And in his delirious state, he called her "Cat" - also maybe afterwards he even thought it was Cat, hence his bragging that he took Cat's virginity.

In any case, it puts her getting pregnant as something which happened after the duel.

[Ragnorak]

I thought his deflowering & knocking up Lysa came while he was in bed recovering from having lost his duel. Lysa stayed by his side taking care of him. As he lay there in a fever, Lysa slipped into his bed and had sex with him. And in his delirious state, he called her "Cat" - also maybe afterwards he even thought it was Cat, hence his bragging that he took Cat's virginity.

In any case, it puts her getting pregnant as something which happened after the duel.

He deflowered Lysa before the duel, but you may be correct in that the pregnancy came afterwards. Here's Lysa's rant by the Moon Door where she talks of loosing her virginity on a drunken night when Hoster had to resolve a Bracken/Blackwood dispute. I seem to recall that there's another section with more information on LF and Lysa sleeping together but I can't recall where it is. I do recall that she slept with him after the duel though.

“How would you know? Were you there?” Lysa descended from the high seat, her skirts swirling. “Did you come with Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood, the time they visited to lay their feud before my father? Lord Bracken’s singer played for us, and Catelyn danced six dances with Petyr that night, six, I counted. When the lords began to argue my father took them up to his audience chamber, so there was no one to stop us drinking. Edmure got drunk, young as he was… and Petyr tried to kiss your mother, only she pushed him away. She laughed at him. He looked so wounded I thought my heart would burst, and afterward he drank until he passed out at the table. Uncle Brynden carried him up to bed before my father could find him like that. But you remember none of it, do you?” She looked down angrily. “Do you?”

Is she drunk, or mad? “I was not born, my lady.”

“You were not born. But I was, so do not presume to tell what is true. I know what is true. You kissed him!”

“He kissed me,” Sansa insisted again. “I never wanted—”

“Be quiet, I haven’t given you leave to speak. You enticed him, just as your mother did that night in Riverrun, with her smiles and her dancing. You think I could forget? That was the night I stole up to his bed to give him comfort. I bled, but it was the sweetest hurt. He told me he loved me then, but he called meCat, just before he fell back to sleep. Even so, I stayed with him until the sky began to lighten. Your mother did not deserve him. She would not even give him her favor to wear when he fought Brandon Stark.I would have given him my favor. I gave him everything. He is mine now. Not Catelyn’s and not yours.”

[Caro99]

No, Caro, this is a direct allusion to Sandor.

(The Gravedigger of Quiet Isle) -_-

Aww, it made me remember how happy i was when i associated the bit with Cersei and the Stranger's kiss to Sansa and Sandor <3

[Lummel]

I want a longer title, I'm going have to start paying brash more.

Pod, I have not yet had a chance to read through your LF analysis (which seems excellent based on my casual browse so far) but I'll jump in on the duel.

Cat always thought that LF was sent away for the duel but later we learn that he was sent away for knocking up Lysa. That means the two must have been relatively close in time. Assuming BB is correct and it was a calculated choice, might it have been his way of dealing with a Lysa pregnant from his little finger? That would certainly get him sent home, would dump Lysa but have someone else take the blame, prevent him from being forced into a shotgun wedding, create a public enough affair to prevent any other immediate backlash against him for his indiscretion with Lysa, and that's just off the top of my head. Prior to BB mentioning it I had never gone back and questioned that part before, but Lysa's pregnancy seem the most likely candidate for a calculated challenge.

I would put it differently. The duel gives him a cover story that is extraordinarily convenient to both Hoster and him.

[Ragnorak]

@Pod

I looked a bit more and found this:

A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her lord father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed. Lysa helped their maester nurse him; she had been softer and shyer in those days. Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon’s squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that.

A fortnight is only two weeks so I don't think that's a sufficient timeframe to get pregnant and know it. We don't get any information to indicate that Lysa slept with Petyr other than on the drunken night and after the duel. I don't think we have enough information to place the time between the Blackwood/Bracken fued incident and the duel. I'm not sold on this theory, but it is the only motivation I can think of for LF challenging Brandon with a hidden agenda. If it did turn out to be true it would be proof that LF knew for certain he never slept with Cat. Are there other pieces of information I'm missing that could exclusively rule out the possibility?

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Lysa apparently thought that her pregnancy would force her father's hand so that she and Petyr could marry. (I don't think she got pregnant on purpose - conception is too chancy for that - but maybe it crossed her mind?) Of course that didn't happen. Even later, after Petyr became wealthy and the Master of Coin, Cersei wouldn't let him marry Sansa. It seems that birth is just that strong a factor, however, during Petyr's long and convoluted recount of how Harrold Hardyng became The Heir, I noticed that Jon Arryn's sister married a mere knight, not even a minor lord. IIRC the knight was from an ancient noble family, but still, daughters seemed to have "married down" at least sometimes. Alys Arryn was from the same social strata as Lysa Tully, or for that matter, Sansa Stark.

So I have to say I wonder if the fact that Petyr's house is not ancient (grandfather was a sellsword) has as much to do with his not being allowed to marry the likes of Catelyn, Lysa (at least at first) or Sansa. It also makes me wonder that if Sansa had no claim, especially after she came of age, would she be free to "marry beneath her?"

I also wonder how much Lysa having taken advantage of Petyr sexually, torqued his mind. What she did could well be classified as "date rape." She didn't deliberately slip a Roofie into Petyr's wineglass, but in both cases, he was not in a condition to give consent. I do not think that excuses anything that Petyr/Littlefinger has done, in any way. I do wonder what possible aftereffects this boundary-violating experience had on him. I can't recall but did he ever know that Lysa was pregnant? I'm not sure, considering how soon he was sent packing after the duel. I wonder if he even really knows that it was NOT Catelyn with whom he had sex those times; is he knowingly lying when he tells Sansa that he'd had sex with her mother or did he truly believe that Lysa was Cat?

[brashcandy]

Well after the duel he is in a position to give consent, although he was still weak and recovering.