Ramsay Gimp Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 No, I don't. Lives are lives. On a battlefield, with two armies facing against each other, I can accept that both parties have resigned to the possibility of losing their lives. However, following their king to a feast to try and mend some broken ties, and having been promised safety through the act of guest-right, where instead butchered in a drunken state. That is not war, that is murder, and thousands of lives will always trump Ellia and her children, or Robert's bastards, as horrible as those crimes are as well.Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I will always prefer the death of soldiers and their masters over the death of children, even if it is just one child per dozens or hundreds of soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proud honorable frey Posted November 17, 2012 Author Share Posted November 17, 2012 but they will fear them. does anyone trust the lannisters? or more importantly do they care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrrhus of Epirus Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Uh, we are not in Westeros, within their misogynistic system with fucked-up values. We are discussing a wish that a poster on these forums expressed, not a character in-universe. And wishing for a female character to be denied their agenda and be punished in a distinctly sexual way is sexist. Wishing for them to be removed from the story is not sexist by itself, though, to be fair, but in my opinion that doesn't look so good in combination with their wish for Catelyn to be punished for ~mistreating~ Jon. And it's kind of baffling that they want Catelyn to be forced out of Robb's life, when the story told in her chapters is HER STORY, not Robb's.And what is that supposed to mean? Do explain.No, but he was wishing for a character in Westeros, to marry another character in Westeros, so that one character is happy, and the other is far far away from Robb and unable to fuck him over. Excuse my language. And it's only a distinctly sexual way because that's how Westeros treats it's females. In a distinctly sexual way. They're possession really, property meant to be traded between families to sure up alliances and form friendships. In our world, this is viewed as wrong, and you'd have an amazing argument if this wasn't a website dedicated to talks about a world where forcing your daughter to marry someone she has never met, and may never love, is completely acceptable.-editAn example of how women are treated is proven in the punishment for Cersei. She was forced to do something that demeaned her in a sexual manner because as a female, that's her only value in that society. If she had been a man, I assume she'd have had her head taken off in a heartbeat, or perhaps not had been punished at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 And what is that supposed to mean? Do explain.I don't know about him/her but I'd follow you around at a party. Never enough fellow feminists at partied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proud honorable frey Posted November 17, 2012 Author Share Posted November 17, 2012 besides wargs are unnatural beings...cursed if you want my opinion. best to do away with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samih Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 but they will fear them. does anyone trust the lannisters? or more importantly do they care?Dude learn to quote posts. If you want to troll, at least quote the posts of the people you're trying to piss off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Visenya Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 How does that work out? You wake up in the morning, go to check on your guests and whoops, turns out they all killed themselves.. Or something..Obviously it would only work with one or two people!!, then frame the newest guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Know Face Man Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Late Frey is a joke of a man. He not only killed his King but did so in a unforgivable way. Everything about this man disgusts me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 No, but he was wishing for a character in Westeros, to marry another character in Westeros, so that one character is happy, and the other is far far away from Robb and unable to fuck him over. Excuse my language. And it's only a distinctly sexual way because that's how Westeros treats it's females. In a distinctly sexual way. They're possession really, property meant to be traded between families to sure up alliances and form friendships. In our world, this is viewed as wrong, and you'd have an amazing argument if this wasn't a website dedicated to talks about a world where forcing your daughter to marry someone she has never met, and may never love, is completely acceptable.Jesus Christ on a pogo stick.Look, lets say you're discussing Tess D'urberville and you really don't like Tess but are very fond of Angel. So you say "I wish Tess'd marry Alec and leave Angel alone"-it'd be a really douchey and misogynistic thing to say because Alec is the guy who raped her. You don't get a pass because in the novel it'd be an acceptable solution.The whole point of showing the "Westero is an awful place for women" is for people to realise "Holy crap! These people are misogynistic assholes! I'm sure glad my dad can't sell me to an awful man who could rape me whenever he wanted!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet-N-SourRobin Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 How does that work out? You wake up in the morning, go to check on your guests and whoops, turns out they all killed themselves.. Or something..Blame their guards! It worked for The MacBeths! Sorta! For about 2 acts! :)if anything lord ramsay has proven he is a survior,givin his humble roots. he took what he was giving(reek) and used it to his advantage from an early age. even you should appriciate that.Ramsay is more proof of the evils of the tax-and-spend Welfare State that lets a no good criminal like him leech off of the government and the hard earned income of respectable businessmen and job creators like Roose Bolton [look at how he was CONSTANTLY opening up new positions in Robb's army! Bottomless opportunity for employment!]. Ramsay and his mom never had to get a job. They never had to work. They never had to earn their keep or socialize with other people. They just sat around whining about what Ramsay was "owed" and indulging his deviant (and illegal) habits and compulsions. And all he's going to do is go out and commit crime against Our Great Nation of Westeros and cause us to raise taxes further to pay for increased Law Enforcement to bring him to justice.:) :) :) :) :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogLover Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Dont forget people arya and rickon are still to marry frey childrenHow will that work since Ramsay just married fake Arya with Freys in attendance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 He should have withdrawn support from Robb and asked for recompense - He could have asked for Edmure, Darry and Harrenhall for swearing to Robb again and Robb would have had no choice but to agree and the Freys would have become the strongest house in the riverlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Know Face Man Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 What about all the other people who died alongside their King?? What punishment did they deserve? Robb made a mistake no doubt but to pay for that mistake with his life was not appropriate. The North remembers Frey, every House lost some men at the RW and none of them promised Late Frey anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevumar Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 How will that work since Ramsay just married fake Arya with Freys in attendance?The Arya marriage was off the moment the Freys changed sides anyway. Arya was even one of the first to hear about it, even though she didn't know it was the case at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBloodraven Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 lolwut? That didn't stop him from betraying Robb in the books. The marriage to a Frey and the fact that Robb is losing I'm sure would be enough to persuade him, since he is known as a cold and cunning man.Family Tradition. Turning on the Starks is What Boltons Do. Why does the scorpion sting the bird halfway through the flight across the lake and doom them both to drown? He's a scorpion, it's what he does.Ok, I thought it was all about refoundation and new beginnings.lord ramsay is a brave and cunning warrior. remember my friends he took out cossal's army(forgive the speeling please) with odds such as 5 to 1 or somthing of the sort. then again took the turncloack by suprise and took winterfell. lord ramsay is ruthless yes but strong and that is what the north needs.Cossal?!! You troll, you bag of wine. What would you do about the Lady Stoneheart? I heard she offed your heir, a great-grandson and a son. That's fucking humiliating?!! Everybody is laughing. They say that going beyond the Neck is not good for any Freys .Have you any news of Jared, Rhaegar the weasel-faced dragon and Symond? Little Walder? Aenys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nausicaä Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 No, but he was wishing for a character in Westeros, to marry another character in Westeros, so that one character is happy, and the other is far far away from Robb and unable to fuck him over. Excuse my language. And it's only a distinctly sexual way because that's how Westeros treats it's females. In a distinctly sexual way. They're possession really, property meant to be traded between families to sure up alliances and form friendships. In our world, this is viewed as wrong, and you'd have an amazing argument if this wasn't a website dedicated to talks about a world where forcing your daughter to marry someone she has never met, and may never love, is completely acceptable.Again, we are in our world, talking in the context of our values. This is a website dedicated to discussion of that world, not role-playing as people in it. We don't have to take the values of Westerosi people for granted and treat them as if they are sacred, instead of calling them out on their issues, when we see that they are wrong. And it's not okay to view female characters as property instead of human beings and treat them as such in our consideration of the novels, just because other characters in-universe may treat them that way. Or any characters, really. It's the same as, for example, wishing horrific torture on any characters. It may be acceptable in Westeros, but since we know that it's wrong, we should be above doing that. Or, to give you another example, characters like Tyrion may see nothing wrong with making fun of Lollys because she's unattractive and mentally handicapped, but if someone did it on these forums, that post would be reported and for a good reason. Westerosi values are not something one should assume when discussing that world.I don't know about him/her but I'd follow you around at a party. Never enough fellow feminists at partied.Thank you, that's sweet <3 I definitely agree with the second part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Visenya Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I'm wondering if Ser Troll sees the dragons as a threat to the unstoppable Frey/Bolton alliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 since you fine folks seem to believe the red wedding "excessive" in it's nature....i ask what would have been a fair punishment for our beloved king in the north? remember house frey pledged men and resources and above all LOYALTY to the cause. the the heir and the first son of frey fought bravely beside the king and lost his life for it as did other frey. tell me what should be the punishment for a king he LIES to those he is sworn to protect? keep it clean and RESPECTFUL please.All valid points, so far. Had you read the books, you'd know what a man does when his lord fucks him over. That's what Jon Arryn did, when Aerys demanded Ned's and Robert's heads. That's what Robb did after Cersei imprisoned Ned. Had Walder openly rebelled, or declared neutrality, no one in the whole realm could blame him. Robb fully deserved to lose the Twins.However, to harm a guest is a heinous crime, has been since Sisyphus, and thanks to that the whole realm has nothing but contempt for House Frey. When Bronze Yohn asked "are you a Frey?" it was meant as a lowest insult. By the way, your manner of writing about yourself as if a member of that family is plainly irritating. Please cease and desist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolantero Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Zero. Lord Frey had no right to demand anything for his allegiance to Robb since he was a bannerman to Edmund. And enough about having two vows (to the king and his liege lord) since:1) We see with the rest of Riverun and WF's bannermen which vow is taken more seriously, especially since the King is not from the bloodline that united the 7 kingdoms. Each bannerman is sworn to his liege lord who in turn is sworn to the (a?) king.2) Even if (1) wasn't true it doesn't matter since Walder Frey could not care less about what vows he has sworn and he is not in any way conflicted about them. He is "conflicted" as to with which side he has more to gain. In other words vows played exactly nothing in him choosing sides.So some people believe (or pretend to believe to troll around) that Robb must have respected his promise/vow to Lord Frey, even though that promise was essentially a product of blackmail and even though Lord Frey himself pissed on the vows he made to both the king AND his liege lord when he didn't join the first (up to the RW) and by demanding something from the second to join him.It's actually Lord Hoster Tully's fault for not marching with an army to deal with Lord Frey after Robert's succesfull rebellion about his habit of arriving late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian of the Lhazareen Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 ALL HAIL THE GOOD KING ROBB, DEAD A FEW YEARS AND STILL HAS PEOPLE KILLING FREYS AND BOLTONS IN HIS NAME. :bowdown: :fencing: :fencing:For the OP i think theres loads other possible threads you shoud start..Ned StARky thE WorST MaN in westEroS for exampleI'll have peace on those terms, THE KING IN THE NORTH!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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