Why didn't Tywin build any alliances for House Lannister?

[Stoned Dragon]

I dont understand why Tywin needed any more of an alliance than he already had.

He was married into the Crown. He financed them. His grandchildren were going to be Kings and Princes/Princesses.

In fact, everything pretty much turned out as good as it could have for Tywin on the alliance front. He has the Tyrells tied to his cause now, and he has (nominally) some sort of expectation of support for the Martels. If Cercei hadn't slept with her own damn brother, Tywin would have also had the support of Stannis - even if Robert was dead, because Stannis understands his familial duties. Tywin allowed Sansa to remain engaged to Joffrey, which wasn't an alliance so much as a possible entry into the North. Tywin did the best he could with every single card he was dealt, and had that war not come the kingdoms would have been more united behind the iron throne than ever before because almost everyone could claim some piece of the pie.

[Bastard of Nightsong]

The short answer, as numerous other posters have pointed out, is that Tywin did build alliances, including the most important one of all: House Baratheon, holders of the Iron Throne.

It's also worth pointing out that Tywin is the only high lord of his generation that we know began his reign with a weak position. He spent his youth repairing the damage done to the Lannisters' standing in the Westerlands by his father (both real and imagined), while simultaneously ruling the realm. Later, when Aerys' paranoia prevented the Cersei/Rhaegar match, Tywin recovered and put himself on the winning side in the Rebellion.

The phenomenon of High Lords marrying their children to each other was rare before Rickard Stark started pimping out his kids; the typical practice had been to shore up relations in your own region by marrying powerful bannermen. Tywin came late to that party, but he was successful with Cersei and would have been with his other children but for Jaime's vows and Tyrion's dwarfism.

None is this is intended to suggest that Tywin was without limitations. Like everyone in Westeros, he had his blind spots, particularly regarding his own family. The first, and most important, is his willful blindness with regard to the twins' incest. Beyond that:

He refused to remarry, despite being quite young (early thirties) when Joanna died.

He allowed Jaime not only to join the Kingsguard (which he might have been unable to prevent), but to remain in the Kingsguard after Robert's accession to the throne. Robert would certainly have let him off the hook, not being a stickler for the rules, and Tywin was in desperate need of an heir.

If he was waiting, as some have suggested, to remove Jaime from the Kingsguard, he allowed Jaime to grow well into the fourth decade of life without fathering any legimate offspring. Dangerous, to say the least.

He refused to disown Tyrion, or consider him inheriting Casterly Rock.

All of this, combined with not attempting to force a marriage for Willem to either Margaery or Arriane, suggests Tywin considered Tommen his heir, a dubiously legal claim sure to be challenged by Tyrion, amongst others.

Therefore, I put it to the board: Who did Tywin think would succeed him as Lord of Casterly Rock, and how did he think it would happen?

[Batman]

He tried to make a marriage alliance with the House Tully. Cersei and Jaime fucked it up, but the idea was right. The Tully's are overlords of one of the richest and most populous areas. It made sense for the Tully's as well since with Cat and Lysa married they have two less borders to worry about.

[Golden Lion]

Except Robb didn't build any alliances either, his two attempts to build alliances (Greyjoy and Frey) backfired spectacularly. Robb's alliances were mostly made for him by Eddard's father by arranging the marriage and sending Eddard to the Eyrie. They had nothing to do with Robb

Renly's alliance stems from his relationship with Loras, that wasn't an alliance it was just a love affair that stemmed into a powerful alliance once Renly opted for the throne.

And you're also forgetting that Tywin's alliance with the Freys is what won the war.

[King Daemon Blackfyre]

He tried to make a marriage alliance with the House Tully. Cersei and Jaime fucked it up, but the idea was right. The Tully's are overlords of one of the richest and most populous areas. It made sense for the Tully's as well since with Cat and Lysa married they have two less borders to worry about.

A Lannister-Tully alliance vs. a Baratheon-Tyrell alliance, that would be a tough one to call. Two absolute powerhouses.

[Batman]

A Lannister-Tully alliance vs. a Baratheon-Tyrell alliance, that would be a tough one to call. Two absolute powerhouses.

Tough call, I guess it would depend on the situation.

[Loon Lord]

I think Tywinsaw Lannisters as above other houses and he didn't want to marry his children off unless it was a very good prospect. He also solidified his influence over the iron throne by loaining tons of money to the crown. Money he knew he'd never get back

[Ponys123]

Freeriders (or small sellsword units like the Brave Companions) are nowhere near enough to make a difference in a largescale military campaigns, for that you need whole companies, which are only in Essos.

You are confusing freeriders with freelancers. Freeriders are clingers on, who follow armies around without being paid - a phenomenon not unknown in the real world. Freelancers are soldiers with no particular affiliation who hire themselves out individually, instead of in companies - individual or small groups of mercenaries, most likely the followers of a single man-at-arms. Cersei and Tyrion were hiring hundreds while playing their games in Kings' Landing.

Also, stating that mercenary companies have no effect on wars - rubbish. A few hundred mounted men can screen, raid and ambush extremely effectively, even if their weight in a pitched battle is not decisive. Wars aren't decided by pitched battles.

[Tommen]

He hit the jackpot when he got Robert for a son-in-law, he just didn't count on Cersei aborting all of her Baratheon spawn and replacing them with her brother's. And I'm sure he was more than happy for Joffrey to marry Sansa Stark before Catelyn arrested Tyrion; that alliance would cemented the relationships between several of the most powerful houses in the Seven Kingdoms and made the invasions of Aegon and Daenerys extremely difficult.

[Rheagar Prime]

well he did try but things always went wrong. I mean his wife tried with dorne and tywin messed it up, he tried with the tullys but jamie became a KG. Heck he was gonna give cersei to oberyn or willas or balon, but we all know what happened to him there. Still as tyrion said he messed it up with that whole baby killing and elia killing business. No one wanted to be allied with them after that since the whole realm saw that they would be punished for such a brutal act. Still he had money so he could always buy alliances.

[Faint]

Had he managed to marry Jaime off to Lysa Tully, the Lannisters would have been very well positioned. And it really wasn't his fault that it didn't happen. Beyond that, Tyrion was simply a non-starter.

[J. Stargaryen]

Maybe. Renly thought Joffery was the true heir. He just didn't give a fuck.

As for Stannis, sure, he wouldn't claim it himself, but that does not mean he would work for the Lannisters. If Tommen or Myrcella were Robert's children, he would still have tried to put the actual heir on the throne. He may have claimed regentship while doing so (which would make sense since he has to kill Joffery and a bunch of Lannisters).

Would actually make an interesting scenario though.

I think the points you make show that the wording from my original post was insufficient to sustain the argument I was making. Instead of an heir, Joffrey himself would have needed to be Robert's trueborn son (at least as far as anyone knew...) to prevent the kind of chaos that actually took place.

I might still be wrong, but I don't think Renly could have justified naming himself king without some sort of controversy surrounding Joff's claim. Thoughts?

[Ragnorak]

Looking strictly at the beginning of the War of the Five Kings, I'm at a loss. There are so many variables that seem outside of his control that could easily have resulted in a Lannister loss. If Robert lived, he lost; if the Vale took the field especially under the Blackfish, he lost; if Stannis and Renly didn't infight, he lost; even if Ned had sent Loras after Gregor as LF suggested, he lost. I have no idea why he started the war without another major House lined up to be on his side.

Prior to that though House Lannister was not poorly positioned politically. The marriage into House Baratheon and the Iron Throne isn't exactly a minor political alliance. The biggest geographical threat is the Riverlands. From his father's time Genna was married into House Frey which is one of the most powerful bannermen of his biggest geographical threat. He also sent Jaime to foster at Riverrun and had considered marrying him to Lysa Tully prior to Robert's Rebellion. Even further back, through Joanna, House Lannister and Dorne were the closest of allies through her friendship with the ruling Princess of Dorne. Oberyn and Elia made a show of seeking marriage prospects to keep up appearances, but it was a virtual certainty they would marry Cersei and Jaime while Joanna lived.

Tywin was Hand of the King which is a political alliance in its own right. Joanna was likely the castellan of Casterly Rock until her death (she was said to rule at home) and probably handled the political allainces for the House. After her death Tywin was still Hand so that job probably fell to Kevan. Tywin only really picked up ruling House Lannister full time when he resigned as Hand after the Harrenhal Tournament and probably only took any real role in its ruling at all after Joanna died. Granted he screwed up the Dorne alliance for no good reason, but he did send Jaime to foster at Riverrun which is a far more strategic alliance given the map. After the Rebellion (which started only a year or so after he resigned as Hand) he had Cersei married to the Baratheons/Iron Throne. The Lannisters were never poorly positioned politically for any peace time scenario. It is only in a Kingdom wide war of succession that it seems that way.

[Castel]

Looking strictly at the beginning of the War of the Five Kings, I'm at a loss. There are so many variables that seem outside of his control that could easily have resulted in a Lannister loss. If Robert lived, he lost; if the Vale took the field especially under the Blackfish, he lost; if Stannis and Renly didn't infight, he lost; even if Ned had sent Loras after Gregor as LF suggested, he lost. I have no idea why he started the war without another major House lined up to be on his side.

It originally wasn't a war. Joff and Cersei bumbled and made it so. Robert would have had to make a judgement before there was actual war (Tywin's men had no banners) and Robert is a coward, most likely he demands that they hand over Tyrion and it's all called fair. But then Robert dies,Joff seizes Ned and gives the North a good reason for war.

Tywin basically acted fast to knock out the riverlands before anyone else got on a war footing, unfortunately for him, Robb was as fast. If Lord Walder had been a bit more scared, if Tywin hadn't offended him years ago, if he hadn't had so much to gain from playing both sides Jaime would have taken Riverrun and there wouldn't have been a quick blow from Robb. Even if Robb had beaten Jaime in the field, if it had failed to be a crushing defeat the riverlands might not have rebelled with the north. Without the death of Ned and the capture of Jaime Ned is sent to the wall and everyone lives happily ever after. Or so he planned.

It was a terrible set of fumbles and idiotic maneuvers that led to the upper hand being lost here.

[orys baratheon no.2]

they have outrageous amounts of money,they can buy their ,,friends,, any time.

[Gurkhal]

Truth of the matter is that the Lannisters did get themselves friends and did try to form alliances but shit don't always comes down as you want to.

Tywin tried to marry Jaime with Lysa and so form and alliance with House Tully, but that didn't go down as Jaime was brought into the Kingsguard by Aerys.

Tywin tried to gain a more solid alliance with the Targaryens by marrying Cersei with Rhaegar, but Aerys refused so that came to nothing.

Tywin then did actually form an alliance with the Baratheons although that came to ashes because of various reasons, most of them horriifically bad relations between Robert and Cersei.

Tywin and Jon Arryn seems to have worked fairly well at the start but that broke down due to the fact that Cersei's kids were not Robert's.

Tywin married off some Lannisters with the Freys, gaining them an ally.

Joffrey and then Tommen was married off with the Tyrells which did effectively form an alliance beetween the two, and which has indeed proved to be more of a bonus than burden for them.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Its only unrealistic luck that saved them.

Renly, Stannis, Robb, Martell all hate them. Still they survive. In this series, unrealistic.

[J. Stargaryen]

Truth of the matter is that the Lannisters did get themselves friends and did try to form alliances but shit don't always comes down as you want to.

Tywin tried to marry Jaime with Lysa and so form and alliance with House Tully, but that didn't go down as Jaime was brought into the Kingsguard by Aerys.

Tywin tried to gain a more solid alliance with the Targaryens by marrying Cersei with Rhaegar, but Aerys refused so that came to nothing.

Tywin then did actually form an alliance with the Baratheons although that came to ashes because of various reasons, most of them horriifically bad relations between Robert and Cersei.

Tywin and Jon Arryn seems to have worked fairly well at the start but that broke down due to the fact that Cersei's kids were not Robert's.

Tywin married off some Lannisters with the Freys, gaining them an ally.

Joffrey and then Tommen was married off with the Tyrells which did effectively form an alliance beetween the two, and which has indeed proved to be more of a bonus than burden for them.

More like horrifically good relations between Cersei and Jaime.

[Ragnorak]

Its only unrealistic luck that saved them.

Renly, Stannis, Robb, Martell all hate them. Still they survive. In this series, unrealistic.

I think that both Varys and Littlefinger preferred a Lannister occupant on the Iron Throne to the other potential candidates-- especially Stannis. I think much of the Lannister victory (and later set backs) is tied to this fact. For example, we know for certain that the Vale being on the sideline is really LF's doing. The Tyrell alliance was bought with Joffrey's life. I think their survival was very intentional and realistic, though not particularly lucky at all.