Re-reading Thoen/Reek, what's Ramsey done?

[Zorpack]

He was definitely castrated....re-read

[Venerable Mead]

The jury is in after last week's episode. Theon is definitely lighter on his feet than he once was. The books made it pretty clear that this was the case, though.

[Warsaw]

Yeah, I think there's no doubt anymore.

[A Man Has Said]

Not only is Theon missing what he once had down below, but if my math is correct (and part of me hopes its not):

[WARNING: really nasty thought coming up. Its why I'm putting it behind a spoiler tag:]

4 people on Ramsay's mailing list (Roose, the Ironborn captains in the north: Asha, Dagmer, and the other one) receiving "strips of skin". Roose gets his in ASOS, the captains in ADWD. We get to see Asha get one in her first POV chapter.

3 fingers missing from Theon's hands, total.

And toes aren't long enough to provide the lengthy strips of human leather described.

I think Ramsay mailed it to one of them. And if he did, most likely it was to Asha. Not so much for her line of thought "better dead than...like this" (which I could be reading too much in to), but she's the only female on Ramsay's mailing list, so it seems like the sort of thing Ramsay would find hilarious to send her that particular piece of a man. Doubly so if its her little brother.

I'd never thought about the strips of skin, but had always assumed that Theon/Reek had been castrated. I especially agree with what you say about it being just the sort of thing Ramsay would do to add insult to injury and mail the evidence to his sister. He is a complete sadistic psychopath, PURE villain.

The way GRRM portrays it is psychodrama. Not only do you KNOW that he's been unmanned, but you are also confronted with the impact it has upon him psychologically - so deep that he can't even THINK it to himself. ALL the allusions to this are of course from the Reek POV, but it's just too traumatic for him to confront. His very thinking is full of little tricks of avoidance. It's very powerful but subtle writing.

[slimity]

This is my first post, and I'd like to begin by saying how much I've enjoyed reading all the theories and speculation about ASOIAF.

A couple points/theories about Theon's torture.

This builds off Sweet-n-sourRobin's post about the 4 strips of skins but only 3 missing fingers, so read that first if you haven't. I think that theory is correct, but as horrific as it is, I think what Ramsay has done to Theon is even worse. This is not for the faint of heart, so you’ve been warned.

Recall the method of Theon's mutilation, particularly the severed fingers and toes. Ramsay would skin the digit, then leave it to fester. The festered finger or toe kept Theon in constant, agonizing pain, yet Ramsay would leave the digit, basically letting it rot away on Theon's hand or foot. Ramsay would end the pain by cutting off the body part, but only once Theon begged him to.

Now, apply this method to Theon's genitalia. Not only did Ramsay flay Theon's manhood, but left it to fester until Theon begged Ramsay to cut it off.

Also, I don't think Theon has been castrated. I think Ramsay took Theon's member, but left his testicles. This is another form of psychological torture. By leaving his testicles, Theon would still experience sexual urges, but would never have a way to satisfy them.

This may have been hinted at in the chapter where Ramsay is to bed the fake Arya (Jeyne Poole, if memory serves). Ramsay wants Theon to "get her ready." Theon is confused by this, because he doesn't have a penis, but Ramsay tells him to use his mouth. Ramsay knows that a part of Theon is desirous of Jeyne, which amuses the Bastard since Theon can't act on the urge. This reinforces the duality of Theon's current existance, as both Reek and the Prince of the Iron Islands.

I';m re-reading all the books now. If there's evidence to support or refute these theories, I'll post it here.

I look forward to your comments!

[FuriousGeorge]

My hope is that Asha & Theon will snip off the bastards knob together, as a family activity not unlike Monopoly.

Monopoly at your house must get fucked up

[Mr Smith]

I think its been left deliberately ambiguous for us. Personally, I believe he was castrated, but I don't think we're meant to truly know, because it means that we're never sure how deep the scarring of Theon, both mental and physical, really is.

I'm kind of really annoyed they showed it in the tv series, it really lacked subtlety. I liked the fact that it was ambiguous in the books.

[Sun Priest]

This is my first post, and I'd like to begin by saying how much I've enjoyed reading all the theories and speculation about ASOIAF.

A couple points/theories about Theon's torture.

This builds off Sweet-n-sourRobin's post about the 4 strips of skins but only 3 missing fingers, so read that first if you haven't. I think that theory is correct, but as horrific as it is, I think what Ramsay has done to Theon is even worse. This is not for the faint of heart, so you’ve been warned.

Recall the method of Theon's mutilation, particularly the severed fingers and toes. Ramsay would skin the digit, then leave it to fester. The festered finger or toe kept Theon in constant, agonizing pain, yet Ramsay would leave the digit, basically letting it rot away on Theon's hand or foot. Ramsay would end the pain by cutting off the body part, but only once Theon begged him to.

Now, apply this method to Theon's genitalia. Not only did Ramsay flay Theon's manhood, but left it to fester until Theon begged Ramsay to cut it off.

Also, I don't think Theon has been castrated. I think Ramsay took Theon's member, but left his testicles. This is another form of psychological torture. By leaving his testicles, Theon would still experience sexual urges, but would never have a way to satisfy them.

This may have been hinted at in the chapter where Ramsay is to bed the fake Arya (Jeyne Poole, if memory serves). Ramsay wants Theon to "get her ready." Theon is confused by this, because he doesn't have a penis, but Ramsay tells him to use his mouth. Ramsay knows that a part of Theon is desirous of Jeyne, which amuses the Bastard since Theon can't act on the urge. This reinforces the duality of Theon's current existance, as both Reek and the Prince of the Iron Islands.

I';m re-reading all the books now. If there's evidence to support or refute these theories, I'll post it here.

I look forward to your comments!

That would fit Ramsay's twisted outlook on everything. But still, to flay Theon's member and leave it to rot sounds way too over the top, though.

[lostinwesteros]

Completely missed it, though the clues were right out front there.

Theon is still a self-serving coward with little intelligence but his punishment is unnaturally harsh and horrible. Every time I feel sorry for him though (and you have to do), he goes and proves he still only thinks of himself, even when he prays to the old gods (I me me me me) so he goes and annoys me again.

If anything I was hoping he'd be put of his misery for good, but it looks like he's going to outlast everyone, hoping for death and not daring to meet it

Yeah, I had a hard time getting to the place where I felt sorry for Theon. What happened to him was horrid, but so were the things he did to the people of Winterfell, to say nothing of what he did specifically to Bran, Rickon, Maester Luwin, etc. And we know what the punishment is for treason, to start with...). I did get there, though, between the scene with him under the Weirwood tree and his rescue of Jeyne. With the beginning of TWOW, though, his situation still doesn't look too good.

[slimity]

That would fit Ramsay's twisted outlook on everything. But still, to flay Theon's member and leave it to rot sounds way too over the top, though.

It is a bit over the top, I admit. I think that's why Martin has been subtle with it. I found some more supporting evidence in Theon's chapter from the upcoming WoW (no spoilers): "He tried to tell her all of it, abouty Reek and the Dreadfort and Kyra and the keys, how Lord Ramsay never took anything but skin unless you begged for it."

Ramsay is the most deliberately evil character in the books. While all the other characters have good and bad aspects, Ramsay is truly a monster.

[Spinebreaker]

Still don't understand the ambiguity being read into the state of Theon's manhood. He has had his penis cut off. Perhaps skinned beforehand, perhaps the testicles too. It's foreshadowed, and heavily, HEAVILY implied...

I'm hoping the episode (Being one written by Martin himself) will clarify to everyone's satisfaction that Theon Greyjoy can not sow...

[NH84]

In what I believe is the first Reek chapter, Theon thinks to himself-

I'm pretty much assumed that meant Theon was castrated.

I actually read that chapter about ten mins ago, and was about to say exactly that in reply to the OP

Definitely had the snip

[slimity]

... Theon Greyjoy can not sow...

Hahaha! I hadn't thought about that connection to the Greyjoy words.

[Magjee]

Found the line:

"He has only taken toes and fingers and that other thing, when he might have had my tongue, or peeled the skin off my legs from heel to thigh."

From when Theon is negotiating the surrender of Moat Caitlin.

[Callisto]

"He has only taken toes and fingers and that other thing, when he might have had my tongue, or peeled the skin off my legs from heel to thigh."

Hello,

while I do believe Theon has been castrated (probably balls left though) this particular sentence was always puzzling for me. Not because the other thing part of it, which by its own implies genitalia, but because of the following part of the sentence, the underlined in the quote.

Why? Well because saying he might have cut of my leg instead equals (it's all good, he only took the other thing) it could have been worse if he took my leg.

Now, I'm not a guy but I assume a lot if not most of guys wouldn't agree that losing those two body parts is comparable and that most of them would rather lose a leg then their ahmm parts.

I know, I would rather lose my leg or my arm or even my tongue....

That's why I think there is a small chance of Theon 'not being a man' might be symbolical after all...but I hope he is castrated and that when he finally reaches his heroic destiny it only proves you don't have to have a dick to be a total bad ass Terminator and Ironborn ruler! :cool4: After all brains are supposedly located elsewhere... ;)

I also apologize if my English isn't understandable, it's not my native language because of this it's also possible I completely misinterpreted the sentence.

[RedtheWarrior]

Why? Well because saying he might have cut of my leg instead equals (it's all good, he only took the other thing) it could have been worse if he took my leg.

Now, I'm not a guy but I assume a lot if not most of guys wouldn't agree that losing those two body parts is comparable and that most of them would rather lose a leg then their ahmm parts.

I know, I would rather lose my leg or my arm or even my tongue....

Good point, this confused me as well. My reading is that basically Theon is so fucked up by what the Bastard's done to him that he keeps telling himself 'it's not so bad, it's not so bad'. Remember at some point when he's talking to fake Arya (IIRC) he basically says that Ramsy only hurts people when they force him to, that underneath he's really good. Don't forget Ramsy got him to leave and then come back. Theon's completely lost touch with reality, this affects his priorities in relation to which parts he'd rather keep.

That's my reading anyway. :)

[Callisto]

Good point, this confused me as well. My reading is that basically Theon is so fucked up by what the Bastard's done to him that he keeps telling himself 'it's not so bad, it's not so bad'. Remember at some point when he's talking to fake Arya (IIRC) he basically says that Ramsy only hurts people when they force him to, that underneath he's really good. Don't forget Ramsy got him to leave and then come back. Theon's completely lost touch with reality, this affects his priorities in relation to which parts he'd rather keep.

That's my reading anyway. :)

I agree with you, it's still an odd sentence. I can't see what other body part could be referred as the ''other thing''.

[RedtheWarrior]

I agree with you, it's still an odd sentence. I can't see what other body part could be referred as the ''other thing''.

Pretty sure it's his penis... and he's so messed up he's all 'at least it's not my leg'

This is not the Theon we knew.

His chapter's are the worst for me, I skip them on re reads often 'cause they're so disturbing.

[SeanF]

Pretty sure it's his penis... and he's so messed up he's all 'at least it's not my leg'

This is not the Theon we knew.

His chapter's are the worst for me, I skip them on re reads often 'cause they're so disturbing.

If I had to choose between the two, i'd prefer to keep my leg.

[RedtheWarrior]

If I had to choose between the two, i'd prefer to keep my leg.

I'm just incredibly grateful I don't have to make that choice. *shudder* seriously disturbing. Not so much for the physical damage but everything else.