Re-reading Thoen/Reek, what's Ramsey done?

[Callisto]

If I had to choose between the two, i'd prefer to keep my leg.

You can't be serious, not with all the psychological implications losing your genitalia, it's easier to make peace with being a cripple than not being able to procreate...I mean the right to procreation is part of fundamental rights a person has. People usually adjust better to living without a leg..

This topic is morbid.

[SeanF]

You can't be serious, not with all the psychological implications losing your genitalia, it's easier to make peace with being a cripple than not being able to procreate...I mean the right to procreation is part of fundamental rights a person has. People usually adjust better to living without a leg..

This topic is morbid.

I'd hate to have to make the choice. In a world where prosthetic limbs are available, I might choose to lose the leg. But, in a medieval world, I'd prefer to keep the ability to walk, rather than the ability to procreate.

[wargalicious]

I would choose to lose my penis. It would be terrible, but I simply wouldn't survive without a leg. You can survive without a cock well enough.

[RedtheWarrior]

I suppose the choice would also have to do with whether you were noble or not: if you're noble you can hire people to carry you about, if you're a peasant your family probably wouldn't be able to support you in any way :(

[Blazfemur]

ironically enough theon argued with his father that he was a man, not asha and he should be rightful heir because he was a man. also, before even that, when he's sailing to the iron islands and makes that salt wife wannabe go down on him, he thinks to himself ver batum, "i am the man."

to lose it, and become not even a man, shows his transformation and flip-flop into the nothingness he's become. all that confidence, all that conceit, and sexuality. GONE. stripped and flayed away. he used to talk down on all around him that he was of nobility, and now he thinks and knows, he's no one. hes nothing.

curious to see how him and asha coexist in the next book.

[SeanF]

to lose it, and become not even a man, shows his transformation and flip-flop into the nothingness he's become. all that confidence, all that conceit, and sexuality. GONE. stripped and flayed away. he used to talk down on all around him that he was of nobility, and now he thinks and knows, he's no one. hes nothing.

curious to see how him and asha coexist in the next book.

Without doubt, it's one of the things that's broken him. Prior to his capture, Theon thought of himself as God's gift to women.

[RedtheWarrior]

ironically enough theon argued with his father that he was a man, not asha and he should be rightful heir because he was a man. also, before even that, when he's sailing to the iron islands and makes that salt wife wannabe go down on him, he thinks to himself ver batum, "i am the man."

to lose it, and become not even a man, shows his transformation and flip-flop into the nothingness he's become. all that confidence, all that conceit, and sexuality. GONE. stripped and flayed away. he used to talk down on all around him that he was of nobility, and now he thinks and knows, he's no one. hes nothing.

sums it up perfectly I think

[ShaggyCat]

Without doubt, it's one of the things that's broken him. Prior to his capture, Theon thought of himself as God's gift to women.

+1 to this.

[Annara Snow]

Hello,

while I do believe Theon has been castrated (probably balls left though) this particular sentence was always puzzling for me. Not because the other thing part of it, which by its own implies genitalia, but because of the following part of the sentence, the underlined in the quote.

Why? Well because saying he might have cut of my leg instead equals (it's all good, he only took the other thing) it could have been worse if he took my leg.

Now, I'm not a guy but I assume a lot if not most of guys wouldn't agree that losing those two body parts is comparable and that most of them would rather lose a leg then their ahmm parts.

I know, I would rather lose my leg or my arm or even my tongue....

That's why I think there is a small chance of Theon 'not being a man' might be symbolical after all...but I hope he is castrated and that when he finally reaches his heroic destiny it only proves you don't have to have a dick to be a total bad ass Terminator and Ironborn ruler! :cool4: After all brains are supposedly located elsewhere... ;)

I also apologize if my English isn't understandable, it's not my native language because of this it's also possible I completely misinterpreted the sentence.

That is exactly why he's telling himself this. Some other men (as seen in this thread) may think losing a leg is worse than losing a penis, but for Theon, his sexuality was the crucial part of his identity. That's why losing his penis is too horrible for him to even contemplate. It's all about avoidance. That's why he thinks so much about his toes and fingers, but can't even bring himself to think about the fact that he's lost his penis and only refers to it as "that other thing", as if it's not important.

And of course it's his penis; we know that Ramsey did not cut his nose, tongue or ears. The only other thing he cut off would be a testicle, but not both, since they would be "those things". But I do agree with the previous poster that Ramsey probably left Theon his testicles, so he would have the hormonal sexual urges that he can't satisfy, another form of torture. I think we see this in the bedding scene, where he taunts Theon about getting aroused, and mocks him as "Prince of Winterfell", even mentioning the Lord's Right.

Speaking of (a bit off topic since it's about Ramsey's fucked up psychology rather than about Theon) that scene and Ramsey's line about Lord's Right (which came not long after Roose's story about taking the Lord's Right, in his mind, when he raped Ramsey's mother) made me think that Ramsey's deepest secret desire is to castrate, humiliate and kill his father, but since all his power derives from his father, who he's also trying to emulate in some ways, he has to content himself with finding stand-in lords that he can humiliate and torture instead. Theon especially caught his fancy by being an arrogant high nobleman/prince, and Ramsey is so resentful of not being accepted as a nobleman, which he thinks he deserves, and being called a bastard or Snow.

I always wonder what the relationship between Ramsey and the original Reek was like. Was Ramsey more dominant in that relationship, or was it perhaps the other way round? Or were they equal but enabling each other? Roose wonders who 'corrupted' whom. We don't know for sure if Reek was a bad guy to begin with or if this was just a prejudice that people held, thinking that his stench, which likely came from some disease as the maester pointed out, was a sign of being born 'wrong' - just as being a bastard is seen as a sign of being bad. Reek obviously hated his stench and the way it defined people's view of him, even though it's something he had no control over, and Ramsey hated his bastardy the same way.

[PhoenixFlame]

Theon's chapters are my favorite in ADWD. When something freaks me out, the freak flag has flown.

What I find interesting is how much Ramsay and Theon have in common, despite being very different people. Severe daddy issues, desperate desire to be seen as "legit" (Lord of the Dreadfort, a true Ironborn, etc.), caught between two worlds, overcompensating to prove their desired identities (Ramsay with his gaudy clothes and psycho hunting habits, Theon declaring himself Prince of Winterfell). Obviously Theon's not a sadistic monster, but it's a good use of contrasts.

And another thing...Roose is waaay chattier with Theon than he is with Ramsay. It's kind of hilarious how Roose is all cold and dour but dammit he needs someone to go road-tripping with so he doesn't get bored. The chapters offer an interesting look at his character too.

Speaking of (a bit off topic since it's about Ramsey's fucked up psychology rather than about Theon) that scene and Ramsey's line about Lord's Right (which came not long after Roose's story about taking the Lord's Right, in his mind, when he raped Ramsey's mother) made me think that Ramsey's deepest secret desire is to castrate, humiliate and kill his father, but since all his power derives from his father, who he's also trying to emulate in some ways, he has to content himself with finding stand-in lords that he can humiliate and torture instead. Theon especially caught his fancy by being an arrogant high nobleman/prince, and Ramsey is so resentful of not being accepted as a nobleman, which he thinks he deserves, and being called a bastard or Snow.

I always wonder what the relationship between Ramsey and the original Reek was like. Was Ramsey more dominant in that relationship, or was it perhaps the other way round? Or were they equal but enabling each other? Roose wonders who 'corrupted' whom. We don't know for sure if Reek was a bad guy to begin with or if this was just a prejudice that people held, thinking that his stench, which likely came from some disease as the maester pointed out, was a sign of being born 'wrong' - just as being a bastard is seen as a sign of being bad. Reek obviously hated his stench and the way it defined people's view of him, even though it's something he had no control over, and Ramsey hated his bastardy the same way.

Agreed. Ramsay strikes me as both craving his father's approval and wanting to flay him alive and eat his brains.

As for Ramsay and Reek, methinks it was fucked up codependent. Attempting to "recreate" his servant in the same man he's mutilated, going from "I'll flay you neck to heel" to "my old friend" is supremely screwy.

Annnd to round out Casa Bolton, Ramsay's mom. Victim, definitely, but was marching to the Dreadfort and demanding child support payments an act of maternal desperation or having ladyballs of steel? I'm curious as to who first told Rammers he was entitled to the Dreadfort.

[Annara Snow]

Here's a very interesting essay about the Ramsey/Theon dynamic on ASOIAF University on tumblr: http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/70439104491/the-thramsay-dynamic

[toffeejay]

Hello,

while I do believe Theon has been castrated (probably balls left though) this particular sentence was always puzzling for me. Not because the other thing part of it, which by its own implies genitalia, but because of the following part of the sentence, the underlined in the quote.

Why? Well because saying he might have cut of my leg instead equals (it's all good, he only took the other thing) it could have been worse if he took my leg.

Now, I'm not a guy but I assume a lot if not most of guys wouldn't agree that losing those two body parts is comparable and that most of them would rather lose a leg then their ahmm parts.

I know, I would rather lose my leg or my arm or even my tongue....

That's why I think there is a small chance of Theon 'not being a man' might be symbolical after all...but I hope he is castrated and that when he finally reaches his heroic destiny it only proves you don't have to have a dick to be a total bad ass Terminator and Ironborn ruler! :cool4: After all brains are supposedly located elsewhere... ;)

I also apologize if my English isn't understandable, it's not my native language because of this it's also possible I completely misinterpreted the sentence.

I always took from "the other thing" it to mean something less simple than his penis or balls. Its just not normal language to use.

Going from something else Theon tells: that Ramsay never takes fingers he just flays them and makes you beg him to cut them off. To me he's flayed possibly the foreskin and made him beg to take it.

Obviously this goes against the GRRM wrote episode were its clearly his cock (but possibly just a little less disgusting for a tv audience).

[Skore]

I always took from "the other thing" it to mean something less simple than his penis or balls. Its just not normal language to use.

Going from something else Theon tells: that Ramsay never takes fingers he just flays them and makes you beg him to cut them off. To me he's flayed possibly the foreskin and made him beg to take it.

Obviously this goes against the GRRM wrote episode were its clearly his cock (but possibly just a little less disgusting for a tv audience).

Well the TV show does have the habit of laying bare some of the lesser inferred story elements such as Renly and Loras' relationship.

Also, I'm pretty sure that in the same episode or perhaps the episode before when Varys is unwrapping his Fed Ex parcel he describes being cut with a hooked knife. The only time we see Ramsay use a hooked knife on the show is when Theon is having his "piece of Prince" removed, the rest of the time he uses the small flaying knife.

[House Pintur]

I fully understand the show is not canon and I have said it a few times myself but I am 99.9% sure Theon lost his manhood in the show because thats really what happened to him.

[Kikajon]

Singer = Mance...Of course it is!! I didn't realize it until now!!

I feel more stupid than Sansa (just kidding...)

And the girls with him? wildlings? How could all of them mix with the Boltons &c in Winterfell without being noticed?

[Annara Snow]

I always took from "the other thing" it to mean something less simple than his penis or balls. Its just not normal language to use.

Going from something else Theon tells: that Ramsay never takes fingers he just flays them and makes you beg him to cut them off. To me he's flayed possibly the foreskin and made him beg to take it.

Obviously this goes against the GRRM wrote episode were its clearly his cock (but possibly just a little less disgusting for a tv audience).

It's not normal language because Theon is not in the normal state of mind. He can't even bring himself to consciously think about Ramsey having cut off his penis, since it's too horrible. It would be for most people, especially for someone like him, who was so sexual - so he just pushes it out of his mind.

Why would taking off his foreskin be so bad that it is purposefully kept unmentioned by the author? Not to mention the strong hints: "My lord, I have no...""With your mouth!" or "I can not be anyone's man anymore".

[SeanF]

I suppose it would have been going too far for the Show to depict Ramsay carefully flaying Theon's penis, and having Theon beg him to cut it off.

[Illusive_Man]

No, in that chapter with Ramsey and Jeyne, Ramsey does ask if Theon is turned on when looking at Jeyne. And if he didn't have his manhood, Ramsey would have known that and wouldn't have asked if Theon had a boner, because it would be really hard to be hard without his member.

That is Ramsey messing with Theon. While the books are no where as clear as the TV show in this regards there is a bit crossover that is worth considering. In the TV show after the casteration, Ramsey asked Theon about phantom itchs that amputees get, and he wondered if eunichs get a phantom itch from their now missing penis. Looking into that context, Ramsey could be refering to a phantom itch in this exchange regarding Jeyne.