GumpBrave Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 That is why this thread is so prolific. We've seen directly what fire is (dragons, R'hllor doctrine) but we are less certain exactly what the ice is. We have a pivotal PoV on the scene in Jon, and more in the area. We've seen the others, in fact the entire series began with a scene including the others, what we don't really understand what it means.It is the song of ice AND fire, not versus fire. Though these are two directly opposed elements, as you say, it is the balance that is crucial.I know I'm jumping in kind of late, but if I made a post of my thoughts of some of the issues that have been well-exhausted in earlier iterations then it'd be quite long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 I don't think that Jon will ever accept an alliance with the Others while he maintains consciousness. Perhaps there is a Night's King scenario in play here, but Jon has recently realized that his obligation to the Night's Watch is more difficult than he previously understood and might need clarifying. The conclusion is that the Others are his enemy. Not because they are undead, but because they represent a very tangible threat to the realm he promised to defend. This brings into question his ability to overwhelm the others influence.I'm not so sure about this at all. I think that if we look at the story as a whole Jon has "peaked" too early to be the saviour of Westeros from the Others. Most of this has been all about the Game of Thrones and to a large extent still is, oblivious to the looming threat from beyond the Wall that nobody really believes in except Jon. Thus, having become Lord Commander, he spends ADwD in a state of perpetual furious activity, bringing the Wildlings through the Wall and using them to garrison the abandoned forts, negotiating a bank loan and in general doing everything possible to prepare to fight the good fight and defend the Wall and the realms of men below it.The problem in story-telling terms, is that he isn't in the nick of time, there's still two books to go (assuming GRRM behaves himself), something game-changing is about to happen in the Winds of Winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GumpBrave Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 First of all, I don't see any way that this story is resolved in 2 books when he still haven't approached anything like conclusion. But I think I saw something on one of these threads regarding the vow of the Nights Watch. I think it might have been analysis you provided actually, Black Crow. But if the Night's Watch no longer becomes relevant due to the Wall falling, or them no longer remaining true, that would absolve Jon to his obligation to the Night's Watch. Meaning that he is a free agent so to speak. This doesn't change his internal mechanisms of justice, just his ability to fully act on it.But regarding Jon's time as LC. He is adjusting to his duties granted, but his major realization is that the realms of men isn't a division between the men of the north and the south, but more the south as a bastion of men and the north as the last stronghold of supernatural forces such as the CoTF and the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 As to the Barrowlands, I don't think there's anything significant to them, assuming that they are indeed graves rather than Sidhe hills. Instead I think they're just part of the window-dressing, emphasising how underpopulated the North is and relating to the lost kingdoms of First Men wiped out during the Long Night - in that respect at bit like those dead cities which seem to litter other bits of Martin's world, not significant in themselves but providing depth and history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 But regarding Jon's time as LC. He is adjusting to his duties granted, but his major realization is that the realms of men isn't a division between the men of the north and the south, but more the south as a bastion of men and the north as the last stronghold of supernatural forces such as the CoTF and the Others.However what's missing from that is the fact that Jon is himself a part of those supernatural forces, he's a warg, a very powerful warg. Its in his blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GumpBrave Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Yea but for me that sets him up to be King of those elements (KIng of Winter, champion of ice.) He is part of the North, but he does not share their motivation. I can't imagine how the motivations that have been set up for Jon in hundreds of pages will be changed. Dying is a pretty big one, but in order for GRRM to make such a 180 he'd have to lay some significant groundwork.Also, Ghost is the major outlet for Jon's warging ability and we know for a fact that Ghost doesn't like the Others and their wights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 Ghost found and later chewed up Othor during the fight in Mormont's chambers. He's not so far as we know encountered any of the Others/Sidhe, but the point of the business of finding Othor and Jafer was that none of the other dogs would go anywhere near them. Ghost wasn't bothered by them, but he was bothered about what was warding the Fist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GumpBrave Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 It was Ghost's cries that first alerted Jon to the Other presence. Ghost also finds the obsidian daggers which are the most widely available tool for effectively countering the others and their wights (this might be Bran though, but that itself is telling.) The argument could be made that Ghost was merely sensing a threat to his territory, but that means that he, 1st: differentiates between the others and humans (Othor as a human and as a wight,) and 2ndly: Sees the difference as being one that constitutes a threat. Ghost is no friend to the others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 We'll have to disagree on that one then because Ghost's behaviour is much more ambiguous than you're suggesting.Moreover, as I've just said, Jon is a powerful warg, just as Bran is a greenseer. That comes from the Old Gods not the new and when he embraces his powers everything will change. As I've said before whatever the true motives of the Children we can be sure they're not going to ally themselves with the pyromaniacs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srecan Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 It is the song of ice AND fire, not versus fire. Though these are two directly opposed elements, as you say, it is the balance that is crucial.An idea comes to mind. All the series we are hearing about that AA and how he/she is the champion of fire, but there is no sign of champion for ice. Granted GRRM said that we will learn more about the others in tWoW.What i'm thinking is that NK might very well be that guy, there are lot of parallels between Mel and her relationship with Stanis (who she believes is AAR) and with NK and his female Other. Having sex to produce half terrifying children - or in Mels case shadowbabys , or having group of fanatic followers - like Old Nan said NK had nights watch under a spell.Could be that others are on the move because they are searching for that guy who ever he is? Could it be that they are picking Craster kids for the same reason (in search for their hero)? AA will probably have his special skills like controlling dragons, maybe others are searching for a guy who has to be a warg? Maybe that's why they took Benjen (thinking it could be him)? Could it be that red god is showing Jon to Mel not because he is AAR but because he is threat to him? What i'm saying is that red lot is searching for AAR, maybe others are active once more because they know that some form of last battle or conflict is aproaching and they need to speed up their search because they need a champion to stand up to AAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 I was thinking about this too. Also what if that hokey Andal religion holds no sway? The Mormonts most likely stick to the old gods, but Jeor is now dead. Was there anyone else besides Jon or Sam that swore their oaths before the old gods? If not, Sam, is gone, so if Jon 'dies', even for the briefest of moments would it allow the white walkers to cross like we saw in the art?I think this is interesting for a few reasons. First it fits with there always needing to be a Stark in Winterfell, perhaps as a replacement, or perhaps Winterfell is close enough to keep the walls magic from failing. Nothing new there, we talked about this before. However, it would also provide Jon a handy dandy way to get out of the Night's Watch. He blacks out, all hell breaks lose, and his friends and allies drag his body to safety where he is resurrected or whatever happens. By the time he comes to, I doubt there would be a Night's Watch left. Course the wall magic could just be related to the Starks themselves being in winterfell or at the wall.It seems the Watch started this "not being true" business by entering the Fist, though I don't know why and what the importance of the Fist could be... Next, they broke guest right and murdered their host who gives his sons to the Others and is probably important blood-wise... they kill Mormont and finally - Jon gets stabbed, who is probably also important blood-wise (a Stark, maybe Craster really is a Stark/Stark bastard...) As far as location is concerned it's Fist - Craster's - Wall. These three locations were somehow desecrated by the Watch. Does this count as not being true? Also, as blood seems to be important in this fearie business, we have Craster, Jon and Mormont - First Men blood has some importance to the Others or Stark and Mormont? And Blackwood, if we take Bloodraven into account? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 An idea comes to mind. All the series we are hearing about that AA and how he/she is the champion of fire, but there is no sign of champion for ice. Granted GRRM said that we will learn more about the others in tWoW.Welcome to the forum - you've been lurking long enough.Yes, it is something we've been looking at here, and while to the orthodox Jon turning out to be on the side of Ice is the ultimate heresy, there's an awful lot of pointers that this might well be the case, and that's why he has to go to the Land of Always Winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Yeah, those Night's Watch fellas have been bad boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 They have indeed, but as Benjen Stark pointed out, such behaviour is hardly uniqie:...over the centuries certain Lords Commander, more proud than wise, forgot their vows and near destroyed us all with their ambitons. Lord Commander Runcel Hightower tried to bequesth the Watch to his bastard son. Lord Commander Rodrik Flint thought to make himself King-neyond-the Wall, Tristan Mudd, Mad Marq Rankenfell, Robin Hill... did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders of the Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war against each other? And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand... and both their heads.No, Mormont might have grumbled about things not being what they they used to be, but arguably what we've seen since he rode out on his last ranging was more in the nature of keeping up old traditions, rather than an unprecedented breach of protocol. Either Old Nan was speaking in general terms as in Whatever happens we have got the maxim gun Watch and they have not, or remaining true has noting to do with refraining from stabbing your Lord Commander in the back.A couple of other things stand out from this passage, there's the apparent preponderance of First Men, and there's also Mad Marq Rankenfell, a name which sounds similar to Winterfell. I'm not for a moment suggesting he's a relative and so far as I know this is the only reference to him or any other Rankenfell in the series, but it does suggest that Winterfell itself is exactly what it says on the tin; Winter Fell/Hill.And one other thing, and bear in mind this is Benjen Stark telling the story. That business 600 years ago was settled not by the King of Winter, the King in the North or even a named Lord Stark, but "The Stark in Winterfell" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Those three places - the Fist, Craster's and the Wall combo are what's interesting to me - it's like the Watch desecrated them in some way.Location, location, location. I expect the cold lot to be a bit territorial. Kind of like - you breached on our turf and now we're coming to/through your Wall. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 Possibly, but remember that that they were out there in the first place because the cold winds were already rising. Whatever's happening was already well underway by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Oh, I know, I'm just thinking on the not being true part and how this gives the Others reason to move to the Wall, or through it as in those sketches... They were out and about independently of the Watch, but they may be justified in going after the Wall and going south in general now that the watch isn't "true"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 Hmmm, I'm still rather coming round to the feeling we've been over-analysing that bit about the Watch being true, and all that it means is that we're safe in our beds so long as we've got the Watch to protect us.As to those storyboard sketches, given that we're still only looking at Storm of Swords, I very much doubt they's coming through the Wall, but rather its for the scene at Craster's when Gilly's mother tells Sam to get out, because Craster's sons are coming. We never see them in the book, but given that we have seen Craster handing over one son to them in the last series, I reckon that this time we're going to see them crashing through the back wall of Craster's place while Sam and Gilly leg it out the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Well, they're probably at the Wall per the cold Jon feels just before he passes out and from what we've heard from Tormund, how the Others were closing in on their camps and people went missing... but I'm not saying those three places being "desecrated" and the murders that the Watch committed are the only reason they may be coming, of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Wolf Smith Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 The Stark in WF? Doesn't someone ( a first Flint?) call Robb/Ned The Stark?@Black Crow I looked for but couldn't find the part about how the Reeds oath split down the middle. Could you repost that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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