Something that just does not make sense at all (Syrio)

[Grip]

In the end I think it comes down to that these are two professionals and that in this instance the odds are in Trants favor, simple as that. Had they both been armed with a bravos blade and no armour then Syrio would likely have won, but not now.

[ShowOverBooks]

While I was a big fan of Syrio and wanted him to live, I have to admit that I agree with the sentiment here.

I liked him too, and would have been very happy to see him grab a real sword and fight his way out.

Either show him die, or show him escape in a believable fashion. Not the way it was handled.

[TheRedStag]

If Syrio or Benjen reappear it wouldnt be "bringing back from the dead" the same was as Cat was brought back.

One is missing presumed dead. The other died no question.

[Pod The Impaler]

Its quite possible Trant simply beat him. Despite being a shithead, there is no evidence that Trant is an incompetent warrior. He is a member of the Kingsguard after all.

Yup.

This is my guess - Syrio was killed or at least captured and horribly tortured.

Remember, he's a commoner (a foreigner) who not only was on the side of a "traitor", interfering, but took up arms against Lannisters. Yes, the first batch were basically low-grade goons who he could beat with a practice sword, but Meryn Trant was well-armoured and skilled enough to be a KG member. Not a top-notch KG member, but he's not Boros Blount either.

There is a small hope Syrio's alive, but heavy emphasis on the word small.

Much more likely he was slaughtered during the coup, along with all the rest of the Stark household.

[A Crow Come Over]

Its quite possible Trant simply beat him. Despite being a shithead, there is no evidence that Trant is an incompetent warrior. He is a member of the Kingsguard after all.

There's multiple references from several people in the books that state Roberts KG was on the worst and least skilled in history (aside from Selmy and Jaime).

[ShowOverBooks]

If Syrio or Benjen reappear it wouldnt be "bringing back from the dead" the same was as Cat was brought back.

One is missing presumed dead. The other died no question.

Benjen is missing. Syrio is presumed dead. Rather, he is IMPLIED dead, as he was in a deadly situation with no apparent escape. Either he got away WITHOUT seriously injuring a Kingsguard, or he's dead. The PROBLEM is that we are not shown what happened. For no good reason.

[The Mountain That Posts]

WAS someone very important important in Braavos. I think First Sword of Braavos either refers to:

1. their variant of Hand of the King

2. A personal bodyguard to the ruler(king?) of Braavos

3. the name of the lord commander of all of the Braavosi military.

At this point, we don't know what the title means. Either way, he WAS the first sword for nine years - he isn't any longer. So chances are he was removed for whatever reason, and rather out of looking for work or out of forced exile, went to King's Landing to be a teacher to aspiring swordsmen. Syrio himself is most likely dead, but I wouldn't be surprised if we learn a bit about him in the later books.

Amen to that. Literary sleight of hand gets old FAST. Killing characters means nothing if you cheat and bring them back. It is a hack move.

Yeah really. I fucking hate that. All these theories about Tyrek Lannister coming back with Varys to be the new lord of Casterly Rock. Bull fucking shit. If Tyrek is still alive and comes back that way, then GRRM has lost his edge completely.

Same goes with Syrio. He needs to be dead. Or else it's stupid and silly.

Also, to a lesser extent, Aeron Greyjoy. I know he's alive, he has confirmed chapters in the sixth book so i'm over it, but I still think it's dumb. It would've been perfectly understandable and make sense if he was murdered by Euron but made it look like he simply went missing. Ugh. GRRM needs to learn that doing the same writing technique(in this case, pretending to kill characters when he didn't) gets old and obnoxious as fuck.

I hate it for main characters, also.

It's okay if it happens every now and then with main characters and if it's BELIEVABLE, both the supposed death and the come-back, but it's easily the worst aspect of the ASOIAF books.

I would NOT be surprised if someone counted every supposed-death of a character in these books it'd add up to 40 or so, probably 70 by the time the books end. Hell, GRRM tries to trick us into thinking Davos is dead like four different times.

For all the credit these books are given for "killing characters brutally and without mercy", I think people overlook how few characters ACTUALLY die compared to those who live. People who claim that about these books need to read Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas or watch Naoki Urasawa's Monster if they truly believe that GRRM truly kills that many characters.

I really liked Benjen, and think it is quite possible that he MIGHT be alive out there.

With the amount of times he's brought up, there's no way Benjen won't come back alive eventually. Which I think sucks, because I would love if GRRM kept it realistic and we simply never learn what happens to him. Ah well.

ETA: Do you really prefer the show to the books? Care to explain why? Thanks. :)

[Kittykatknits]

Syrio being a FM is pretty strong possibility, the training he makes Arya go thru in KL has almost nothing to do with swordfighting and is the exact same training she goes thru in Braavos (blindfolded, not being seen, chasing cats, etc)

Nope, nothing at all except for Martin saying he isn't.

Also, it is possible that Syrio existed to be a mentor and teacher for Arya, his importance shown through her constant recall of his lessons. We don't need him to come back as a FM or Trant or something else for him to have had a great impact on the story.

The man is dead.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Also, it is possible that Syrio existed to be a mentor and teacher for Arya, his importance shown through her constant recall of his lessons. We don't need him to come back as a FM or Trant or something else for him to have had a great impact on the story.

This is the same reasoning I doubt Jaqen will ever truly come back, his only role was to be a teacher of sorts to Arya and to help Arya with the weasalsoup and to give her a coin. Just a plot device character, he's not coming back. (And even if it is him in Oldtown, then we will never get any hints or anything regarding this - GRRM will leave the connection completely be made by readers without any hints from his new identity)

[TheRedStag]

Benjen is missing. Syrio is presumed dead. Rather, he is IMPLIED dead, as he was in a deadly situation with no apparent escape. Either he got away WITHOUT seriously injuring a Kingsguard, or he's dead. The PROBLEM is that we are not shown what happened. For no good reason.

Benjen has been presumed dead since AGOT, although I would be shocked if he didn't reappear by the end of the series.

And if Syrio doesn't reappear. I'll be happy believing he lied about the first sword of Braavos never running and after Arya got away, he skedaddled back to Braavos where he has a beautiful Lady, a nice keep and will have many sons and daughters to teach the water dance to in the future.

[A Crow Come Over]

Nope, nothing at all except for Martin saying he isn't.

Link plz? I've been searching for GRRM speaking on this topic.

[Fat Mac]

There's multiple references from several people in the books that state Roberts KG was on the worst and least skilled in history (aside from Selmy and Jaime).

As far as I could tell, they were referencing the honor of the members. Boros Blount is the only really incompetent one I can think of. Mandon Moore and Arys Oakheart are noted for being good.

[The Mountain That Posts]

As far as I could tell, they were referencing the honor of the members. Boros Blount is the only really incompetent one I can think of. Mandon Moore and Arys Oakheart are noted for being good.

Barristan Selmy, Jaime Lannister, Mandon Moore and Arys Oakheart are all noted to be exceptional swordsmen. And Meryn is noted, by Jaime at one point, to have been a knight who was formerly of great talent but the years and laziness withered the talent away from. Pretty sure we learn little-to-nothing about the fighting ability of Boros and Greenfield.

[Rawien]

There seems to be alot of implied deaths in the books that have yet to be resolved. In the beginning of the books, (especially with Ned) I thought there was going to be a whole ton of dead characters. Now with stoneheart, the gravedigger, Brienne and Robert Strong there are so many people who just won't stay dead. It seems there are going to be alot of "reveals" in later books when some of these people come back into play after dying.

I think George is not afraid to kill characters and not afraid to resurrect them, but perhaps the missing text about whether Syrio died or escaped is just a red herring to make you think he's still alive?

[A Crow Come Over]

Barristan Selmy, Jaime Lannister, Mandon Moore and Arys Oakheart are all noted to be exceptional swordsmen. And Meryn is noted, by Jaime at one point, to have been a knight who was formerly of great talent but the years and laziness withered the talent away from. Pretty sure we learn little-to-nothing about the fighting ability of Boros and Greenfield.

Where do you guys read that they were exceptional swordsman, I don't recall them being specifically mentioned? Mandon Moore was thought to be the most dangerous but killed by Podrick Payne, Arys Oakheart beheaded by Areo Hotah and referred to as a green boy, Preston Greenfield killed in the riot and its implied that Boros Blount is about as useless as tits on a boar. So Trant might be the closest one resemble a knight but thats not exactly a ringing endorsement on his fighting ability.

I think we got a lil off topic here tho, another thing I want to mention is that I do believe Syrio Forel is dead....but I think he was killed sometime before coming to KL by a FM who took his identity, the same FM who escaped Trant and made his way to the black cells and then killed and took the identity of the criminal known as Ja'Qen Hagar.

[LeoSuperstar]

Where do you guys read that they were exceptional swordsman? Mandon Moore was killed by Podrick Payne, Arys Oakheart beheaded by Areo Hotah and referred to as a green boy, Preston Greenfield killed in the riot and its implied that Boros Blount is about as useless as tits on a boar. So Trant might be the closest one resemble a knight but thats not exactly a ringing endorsement on his fighting ability.

I think we got a lil off topic here tho, another thing I want to mention is that I do believe Syrio Forel is dead....but I think he was killed sometime before coming to KL by a FM who took his identity, the same FM who escaped Trant and made his way to the black cells and then killed and took the identity of the criminal known as Ja'Qen Hagar.

But why? Why would he go to the cells? If he wanted to go to the Wall for some obscure reason, he could just join Yoren or go by himself. Isn't the most obvious conclusion that Syrio is just Syrio and died giving Arya a chance to escape?

[Rawien]

Where do you guys read that they were exceptional swordsman, I don't recall them being specifically mentioned? Mandon Moore was thought to be the most dangerous but killed by Podrick Payne, Arys Oakheart beheaded by Areo Hotah and referred to as a green boy, Preston Greenfield killed in the riot and its implied that Boros Blount is about as useless as tits on a boar. So Trant might be the closest one resemble a knight but thats not exactly a ringing endorsement on his fighting ability.

I think we got a lil off topic here tho, another thing I want to mention is that I do believe Syrio Forel is dead....but I think he was killed sometime before coming to KL by a FM who took his identity, the same FM who escaped Trant and made his way to the black cells and then killed and took the identity of the criminal known as Ja'Qen Hagar.

No one can withstand the might of Podrick.

[A Crow Come Over]

But why? Why would he go to the cells? If he wanted to go to the Wall for some obscure reason, he could just join Yoren or go by himself. Isn't the most obvious conclusion that Syrio is just Syrio and died giving Arya a chance to escape?

Tons of reasons but for one, he needed a new identity and the Black Cells would be the best place to find someone who no one is gonna come looking for and I don't think he had any intention of going to the Wall but rather keeping an eye on Arya and make sure she gets to Braavos.

[LeoSuperstar]

Tons of reasons but for one, he needed a new identity and the Black Cells would be the best place to find someone who no one is gonna come looking for and I don't think he had any intention of going to the Wall but rather keeping an eye on Arya and make sure she gets to Braavos.

And the best way to make sure she would make to Braavos (BTW, whaaaaat? :shocked: )is to be chained inside a cage?

[ShowOverBooks]

Tons of reasons but for one, he needed a new identity and the Black Cells would be the best place to find someone who no one is gonna come looking for and I don't think he had any intention of going to the Wall but rather keeping an eye on Arya and make sure she gets to Braavos.

I don't think Syrio was a Faceless Man, but I do like the idea of him following her to watch out for her.

Getting locked into a cage with two vicious killers seems like a questionable way to do it, though. He could have just signed on with Yoren.