The Rise of Dorne Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 Why would you think Varys cares about the good of the realm? I mean specifically what about peace appeals to him? I think its fairly apparent, Varys tells Ned what Ned wants to hear in order to get Ned to admit to treason. I mean he's manipulating in, quite obviously. And Varys clearly doesn't care about the innocent. He murders young children left and right. So I can't see that its the murder of innocence that motivates him. So why exactly is he supposed to care about peace? I can't see any actual evidence he as any interest in any such thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylin Stark Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 I really doubt this. I think his plans have been revealed, he wants Dany and Aegon to gain power, regardless of Aegon being a Blackfyre or not. Why would he lie to a dead man (Kevan)?I have a theory regarding Varys sending Jaqen to kill the maesters because the maesters might want to kill the dragons as they most likely did many years ago. here it is: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79843-did-varys-send-jaqen-to-oldtown/Please read it, it's got loads of supporting evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rise of Dorne Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 WHY WOULD HE TALK TO A DEAD MAN AT ALL!!!!!!!!If he's trying to help Aegon and Dany, he's patently incompetent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 WHY WOULD HE TALK TO A DEAD MAN AT ALL!!!!!!!!If he's trying to help Aegon and Dany, he's patently incompetent.He's talking to a dead man so his spies (the little birds) can listen. So when one of them is caught, it can only pass on his lie - that Aegon is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rise of Dorne Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 Also, why does he want to help Dany and Aegon?ETA: Brravosi in general and Faceless men in particular DO NOT get down with Dragons. The Maesters killed the Dragons? Who brought the Doom to Valyria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rise of Dorne Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 THANK YOU, HE'S LYING. I rest my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 He wants to help fAegon because he's his nephew, most likely.As for helping Dany, he needs her to 'prove' fAegon's legitimacy. fAegon looks rightfully fake to most of Westeros, including Doran Martell. But once he marries Dany, that problem disappears - because Dany's Targaryen credentials are impeccable. Her chain of custody (Ser Willem Darry, Viserys Targaryen, Ser Jorah Mormont, Ser Barristan Selmy) is well-documented and beyond doubt. It's exactly what fAegon needs. Add to that the fact that Dany has weapons of mass destruction, which fAegon lacks, and the reasons for trying to get these two hitched only become mor pronounced.ETA: Varys is telling the truth, just not all of it. He never says it's Aegon son of Rhaegar, just some Aegon. That's his MO: Tell the truth, but only part of it so people rush to false conclusions. He's doing this a lot. However, the one person I do not see him lying to is his brother-in-law and partner in crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rise of Dorne Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 He's his nephew. LOL ... ok. How do you know Varys has a sister or a brother? Dany isn't going to marry Aegon. He'd be better off killing dany. Oh, as long you're no saying thee bullshit about caring about the realm is the truth. But still How do you know Varys has siblings? I mean besides Gillie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Valonqar Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 I am actually on the side of Dorne here. I haven't read the first book in half a year now but I watched the show very recently so I am going to use it as my reference even though I know that the books are better. If he wanted Dany to succeed then why would he try to have her killed? In the show Illyrio got her gifts and hospitality. Yet Varys supported sending an assassin after her but the assassin only failed because Jorah cahnged his mind in the last minute. If he had not Dany might be dead, and Khal Drogo could have died too from the poison. So if he wanted to get the Dothraki to attack Westeros to get support for Aegon, then a plan that involves a possibility for the assassination of the Khal who would ride the wooden horses is a bad one. More so if the way he planned the assassination to fail was hoping that Jorah would switch sides then that is a bad plan. You could say that he has spies among the Dothraki who knew what Jorah was feeling but why would Varys let Dany cross the Red waste to Qarth without helping her. Because that was a dangerous journey. I think we have to agree that his plan is very strange and we really do not know what his motives are. If it is getting the realm a good ruler, then I don't see why he did not try to make Ned the Lord Protector?. If it is helping the weak, then why does he have his "child slaves"?. If it was getting Aegon on the Iron Throne, then why didn't he keep Aegon safer? If he just wants to get Dragon blood on the Iron Throne, then why try to kill Dany? If he wants power for himself, how is getting Aegon, which I dont think knows him, going to help? If he is working for the Others (GRRM has given hints that the Others are not necesserally evil) how does he stay in contact.?I think we are just going to have to wait for the Winds of Winter or Dream of Spring to find out what motivates Varys. The only thing I know is that this argument is not helping anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylin Stark Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 He's talking to a dead man so his spies (the little birds) can listen. So when one of them is caught, it can only pass on his lie - that Aegon is real.Exactly how many spies of his have been caught till now? None.And their tongues are cut out. Nobody will ask them to write because it won't occur to them.And who's gonna believe a random tongueless child?No offense sir, but you really seem to be reaching and looking for stuff that isn't their. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rise of Dorne Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 Well he doesn't have to Stay in contact. If he's working for the Others and his mission is maximum sabotage, that's all he needs to know. Plus there's all kinds of shit. glass candles, ravens, maybe he talks to the great in the flame and needs to sacrifice some nads every time he files a TPS report. He could send one of Illyrio's ships Davos use to sail up there and trade with wildlings. i mean there's a million ways. Bloodraven manages to communicate just fine, he's in a freakin cave under the North pole wedged between Santa and the Great Walrus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylin Stark Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 I am actually on the side of Dorne here. I haven't read the first book in half a year now but I watched the show very recently so I am going to use it as my reference even though I know that the books are better. If he wanted Dany to succeed then why would he try to have her killed? In the show Illyrio got her gifts and hospitality. Yet Varys supported sending an assassin after her but the assassin only failed because Jorah cahnged his mind in the last minute. If he had not Dany might be dead, and Khal Drogo could have died too from the poison. So if he wanted to get the Dothraki to attack Westeros to get support for Aegon, then a plan that involves a possibility for the assassination of the Khal who would ride the wooden horses is a bad one. More so if the way he planned the assassination to fail was hoping that Jorah would switch sides then that is a bad plan. You could say that he has spies among the Dothraki who knew what Jorah was feeling but why would Varys let Dany cross the Red waste to Qarth without helping her. Because that was a dangerous journey. I think we have to agree that his plan is very strange and we really do not know what his motives are. If it is getting the realm a good ruler, then I don't see why he did not try to make Ned the Lord Protector?. If it is helping the weak, then why does he have his "child slaves"?. If it was getting Aegon on the Iron Throne, then why didn't he keep Aegon safer? If he just wants to get Dragon blood on the Iron Throne, then why try to kill Dany? If he wants power for himself, how is getting Aegon, which I dont think knows him, going to help? If he is working for the Others (GRRM has given hints that the Others are not necesserally evil) how does he stay in contact.?I think we are just going to have to wait for the Winds of Winter or Dream of Spring to find out what motivates Varys. The only thing I know is that this argument is not helping anyone.I'm pretty sure he agreed with assassinating Dany in front of the council to maintain his appearance of loyalty to Robert. He was Jorah's handler and corresponding with him, most likely he told him about the attempt so that he could prevent it, get in Dany's good graces and also provoke Khal Drogo into wanting to conquer Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rise of Dorne Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 Exactly how many spies of his have been caught till now? None.And their tongues are cut out. Nobody will ask them to write because it won't occur to them.And who's gonna believe a random tongueless child?No offense sir, but you really seem to be reaching and looking for stuff that isn't their.Where do you get this shit? How do you know none of his spies have been caught? Littlefinger is clearly running an effective counter espionage ring. Good enough to pull of the purple wedding and steal sansa. You're telling me littlefinger never snatched one these little kids? PLUS you admit he's lying, when you just said that testimony was impeachable.ETA: OR You didn't answer the question. There's no logical reason to talk to a person that about to be dead. So it makes just as much sense to lie as it does to tell the truth. Kevan dying, is therefore irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rise of Dorne Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 I'm pretty sure he agreed with assassinating Dany in front of the council to maintain his appearance of loyalty to Robert. He was Jorah's handler and corresponding with him, most likely he told him about the attempt so that he could prevent it, get in Dany's good graces and also provoke Khal Drogo into wanting to conquer Westeros.Its still a horrible plan. It depends on how promptly Jorah reads his mail. And Illyrio admits he expected Dany to die. Sorry, not credible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Valonqar Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 I'm pretty sure he agreed with assassinating Dany in front of the council to maintain his appearance of loyalty to Robert. He was Jorah's handler and corresponding with him, most likely he told him about the attempt so that he could prevent it, get in Dany's good graces and also provoke Khal Drogo into wanting to conquer Westeros.Well, as I said, been a while since I read AGOT, but in the show, a little bird hands him a letter and the kid says something like "A royal Pardon, The spider sends his congratulations" or something like that. Nothing implies Varys is trying to prevent the assassination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nymphetamine Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 The plan for Varys has always been to place Aegon on the throne. He planned to have Viserys/Drogo invade Westeros causing chaos and destruction. He expected them both to die in the process, and if they didn't he probably had a plan to deal with that. Aegon would then come in with the GC and pick up the pieces, taking advantage of the fact that Westeros would be in an incredibly weakened state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylin Stark Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Well, as I said, been a while since I read AGOT, but in the show, a little bird hands him a letter and the kid says something like "A royal Pardon, The spider sends his congratulations" or something like that. Nothing implies Varys is trying to prevent the assassination.Oh yeah ... forgot about that part in the show.It just seems to have no point in brokering a marriage between Dany and Drogo with Dany dying so early. I'm pretty sure the plan was Dany + Drogo's forces, Viserys + Arriane's Dornish forces and Aegon + the Golden Company would attack Westeros and take back the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Oh yeah ... forgot about that part in the show.It just seems to have no point in brokering a marriage between Dany and Drogo with Dany dying so early. I'm pretty sure the plan was Dany + Drogo's forces, Viserys + Arriane's Dornish forces and Aegon + the Golden Company would attack Westeros and take back the Iron Throne.Varys didn't know about the Viserys-Arianne treaty. It was specifically designed to be hidden from him. He also never refers to it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylin Stark Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Where do you get this shit? How do you know none of his spies have been caught? Littlefinger is clearly running an effective counter espionage ring. Good enough to pull of the purple wedding and steal sansa. You're telling me littlefinger never snatched one these little kids?PLUS you admit he's lying, when you just said that testimony was impeachable.ETA: OR You didn't answer the question. There's no logical reason to talk to a person that about to be dead. So it makes just as much sense to lie as it does to tell the truth. Kevan dying, is therefore irrelevant.I don't think he's lying. Don't Bond villains reveal the truth because they think Bond is gonna die and can't do anything about it? Plus imagine how nice it would be to be able to boast about your genius plans.As for the Purple Wedding, LF temporarily allied himself with the Tyrells, he didn't have any counter espionage ring. I'm pretty sure nobody even knows about the little birds' existence.If LF did know about them, he would have taken steps against Varys to stop him from knowing the truth regarding his plans. So far we haven't seen any countermeasures implemented, while Varys does seem to know that LF had Jon Arryn poisoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rise of Dorne Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 The plan for Varys has always been to place Aegon on the throne. He planned to have Viserys/Drogo invade Westeros causing chaos and destruction. He expected them both to die in the process, and if they didn't he probably had a plan to deal with that. Aegon would then come in with the GC and pick up the pieces, taking advantage of the fact that Westeros would be in an incredibly weakened state.Yeah that's a really shitty plan. The odds of Drogo ever making it was low. The Odds of the Golden company taking over are horrible. The Iron Born (safe from imaginary Dothraki on their islands) could just invade after the Dothraki were gone, they have enough men to beat the Golden company. Its a freaking joke, 10,000 men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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