Cersei's Paranoia

[Quiet Isle]

In light of this discussion about Cersei, and the etiology of her paranoia, and narcissism, I highly recommend the movie, "We Need to Talk about Kevin." it also plays in to Joffrey's psychopathy.

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

she was no different. even as the daughter of the richest man in the kingdom she still had little to say about her life, her body or her future. she had no real power of her own.

however, she was able to create some power and authority for herself later in her life. she could have become far more influential than she did but she was held back by her own paranoia and belief that the system that held her down could not be circumvented when in reality, it could. she didn't try to beat the system. she lamented about it's existence all the while trying to fit into it.

This. She's basically a medieval emo.

[bbstark]

Just jumping in to say that Joanna Lannister died when Cersei & Jaime were seven, so I wouldn't say Cersei grew up totally deprived of a mother's affection; and there are moments we know of where Joanna interfered with the social behaviour of her children, i.e. separating Cersei and Jaime after she found them playing doctor

It's an interesting theory though, you have to wonder if Joanna would've been able to balance Tywin's influence on his children and there subsequent "the only one you can trust is yourself" mentality. Then again, we don't really know what Joanna was like apart from the few insights we get from the text - the fact that she's a Lannister too means she probably grew up with similar family dynamics.

Edit grammar

yeah that's true she knew her mother somewhat, but you don't develop into a complete person before the age of 7

Joanna even had a complete hold of Tywin, let alone influence over the kids, so I think it's definitely worth noting.

No, Ser Jaime Lannister never lived at the Tower of The Hand. He served as a squire to Ser Arthur Dayne mostly on campaign and returned to Casterly Rock when knighted. When he approved to become KG just to be near Cersei, Tywin resigned and took Cersei with him to Casterly Rock. The home of the KG is the White Sword Tower, and we have no idea wether this building is connected to the tunnel system at all.

He might have entered the Tower of The Hand for taking out Lord Rossart, we don't know. He had a few talks to Tywin for sure. But he never lived there.

Cersei did, like Sansa and Arya, and she lived there for years, cause Tywin wanted to marry her to Viserys or, after an eventual death of Elia Martell, to Rhaegar.

I may add Jon Arryn was an idiot who didn't notice the cheating of a wife 30 years younger. Wonder how he found the regular stairs of the Tower of The Hand, let alone hidden tunnels.

Edited for spelling "Jon"

you seem to insist on this point, but I'm not going to argue with it anymore, because frankly it's not worth my time.

She fulfilled her own prophecy. Only stupid people do that. Smart ones brush them off and live their lives normally without a second thought, therefore not fulfilling the prophecy.

= Stupid.

Could someone explain what's being debated?

Sure, Cersei has reason to be paranoid, but she has been paranoid from the start of the novel. People with dirty secrets tend to be paranoid.

Even we agree she has the right to be paranoid, most of her paranoia is misplaced. It also doesn't change the fact that she has been a cruel and self-centered creature since she was a child.

Cersei wasn't dealt a bad hand, she's reaping what she's sown,

We started out arguing as to with the information given, is Cersei's paranoia justified.

However some people dismiss her as stupid (i've posted some examples above)

I think Cersei is a broken person, as well as a vicious one. She's suffered a lot from the losses in her life. The OP did mention her mother as well. Loving parents are cruicial to someone's development, and she has had that missing in her life.

Now Look at this developement, and think about this: Why would Martin write a 1/4 of a book from Cersei's point of view if he just wants to tell us that she's stupid. Lollys is dimwitted, and we don't get a POV from her. Plenty of people are stupid, but Cersei is broken.

1. as a child she suffers loss (her mother) but she's also a selfish, vain child, and it is turning her into a mean, terrible person

2. in the beginning we see Cersei through other people's eyes. All her life she's been pushed into doing something against her will and it's basically turned her into a vengeful bitch.

3. we get into her head AFTER she loses a child. Joffrey was monstrous, but he was still her child.

Martin's a smart guy, he knows what he's doing. Cersei isn't likeable, but we have a lot to learn from her arc, I stand by that!

So, I'm arguing there's more to Cersei, because of what she's lost in life. Honestly Jaime wasn't very moved by the loss of Joffrey, and I found that somewhat disturbing, no matter what, he was still his kid.

So before you guys go and gut this viewpoint again, could you please consider for one second what the loss of a child might do to someone.

People say " A parent should never have to outlive a child ", and Cersei's story shows us what the consequences of that can be.

[bbstark]

i would say cersei believes she was dealt a bad hand even though it's no different from any other woman in westeros (which doesn't mean she should shut up and like it but yeah, she wasn't being singled out to be oppressed) and that she is indeed reaping what she's sown as a result of her belief and paranoia.

It's true yes, she believes it, but in fact she's been dealt a lot more than most people in Westeros. I still think with the presence of a mother she would be more aware of her real shortcomings, which begins with a lack of perspective.

I mean, I for one can see how that can screw you up. I'm not defending what she did, and I really don't want anyone to confuse mymeaning. I just think her tale is a cautionary one.

[jons nissa]

Seven Hells, she lived for years in the Tower of The Hand when she was young and never noticed that the walls of this building were full of tunnels...you don't have to chase cats to see that there are some interesting architectural features in the Red Keep.

not many people knew about the secret tunnels. hence why they were called secret. varys and tywin seem to be the only ones aware of them currently. this really shouldn't be held against her.

But keep in mind Cersei grew up without love and without a mother. Kids learn love, social behavior and how to develop healthy relationships from their parents, and Cersei missed out on all of that. I believe if she had grown up with her mother, she'd be more of a Regina George (i.e. Mean girl) than a straight out evil villain

playing "what if" is always difficult however many people in asoiaf grew up without their mother's love and do not resort to the measures cersei resorts to. her own twin seems to have a better grip on things and grew up equally as devoid of a mother's love. not that he's a saint or anything but he's clearly not as sadistic as cersei. still, there is little doubt that having joanna around could only have helped.

eta:

It's true yes, she believes it, but in fact she's been dealt a lot more than most people in Westeros. I still think with the presence of a mother she would be more aware of her real shortcomings, which begins with a lack of perspective.

you seem to have a lot of faith in cersei's mom. again, it's impossible to say what could have been with her mom. what we know for sure is cersei would still be raised to marry into a great house and further her family's position. cersei would not like that but perhaps her mother might have helped her understand and cope with it better. and shown her how to be more of a partner since she joanna seems to have been a great partner to tywin. but i don't think her mother would have been the magic ingredient in cersei's life. hard to say though. what affects one person one way affects another person differently.

[bbstark]

playing "what if" is always difficult however many people in asoiaf grew up without their mother's love and do not resort to the measures cersei resorts to. her own twin seems to have a better grip on things and grew up equally as devoid of a mother's love. not that he's a saint or anything but he's clearly not as sadistic as cersei. still, there is little doubt that having joanna around could only have helped.

you seem to have a lot of faith in cersei's mom. again, it's impossible to say what could have been with her mom. what we know for sure is cersei would still be raised to marry into a great house and further her family's position. cersei would not like that but perhaps her mother might have helped her understand and cope with it better. and shown her how to be more of a partner since she joanna seems to have been a great partner to tywin. but i don't think her mother would have been the magic ingredient in cersei's life. hard to say though. what affects one person one way affects another person differently.

I'm not denying that I was speculating :D

The point about Cersei's mom is that her loss affected her stronger than it did Jaime (like you said at the end there)

But the other losses in her life (Joffrey, her kid!!!) affect her beyond belief, I mean not only is she turning into a psycho, she's losing her grip on reality. Which is what the OP was saying, given all these factors, her paranoia, and consequential psychosis actually make sense.

I think Cersei was always "prepared to do what needs to be done", or destroy her enemies, but after the loss of Joff, she actually becomes psychotic, sadistic even.

it's a pity we don't see a glimpse into her head before the loss, but maybe George intended it that way?

I think the point of his decision of when to give her a POV was to let us see how a mind can slip when the chips fall just right.

(I dunno, I'd really like to see people discuss THIS instead of just saying she's stupid)

[Quiet Isle]

I'm not denying that I was speculating :D

The point about Cersei's mom is that her loss affected her stronger than it did Jaime (like you said at the end there)

But the other losses in her life (Joffrey, her kid!!!) affect her beyond belief, I mean not only is she turning into a psycho, she's losing her grip on reality. Which is what the OP was saying, given all these factors, her paranoia, and consequential psychosis actually make sense.

I think Cersei was always "prepared to do what needs to be done", or destroy her enemies, but after the loss of Joff, she actually becomes psychotic, sadistic even.

it's a pity we don't see a glimpse into her head before the loss, but maybe George intended it that way?

I think the point of his decision of when to give her a POV was to let us see how a mind can slip when the chips fall just right.

(I dunno, I'd really like to see people discuss THIS instead of just saying she's stupid)

My goodness, she was a bad seed even in her youth. She killed Melara, she bullies Melara and Maggy, when we get in her head we see what she is thinking. Does she have reason to be paranoid now? sure. Did she lose out on a potentially decent childhood when her mom passed? sure. But she tortured Tyrion as a baby, and used her brother like a pawn. I'd say all of those indicate she had some major mental issues going on long ago. she was FOUR when she tortured Tyrion. she didn't just hit him or take things away from him to make him cry. she undressed him and tortured him sexually as an infant.

[bbstark]

My goodness, she was a bad seed even in her youth. She killed Melara, she bullies Melara and Maggy, when we get in her head we see what she is thinking. Does she have reason to be paranoid now? sure. Did she lose out on a potentially decent childhood when her mom passed? sure. But she tortured Tyrion as a baby, and used her brother like a pawn. I'd say all of those indicate she had some major mental issues going on long ago. she was FOUR when she tortured Tyrion. she didn't just hit him or take things away from him to make him cry. she undressed him and tortured him sexually as an infant.

oh my word... I don't know HOW I ended up a defender of Cersei..... she really isn't my favorite character, but I do find her fascinating, I mean we are in the mind of a truly terrible person.

anyways, I've discussed her atrocious acts in childhood in a previous thread. (I wanna post this, how do you post a thread/post as alink?)

The point was that she did all of these things after she lost her mother!

I don't deny that Cersei is naturally a mean and selfish person, However I've argued that what Martin is telling us what can happen to such a person after severe loss. There's lots of crazies in the book, but we only get to see into HER head.

SO the question is, is she JUST a paranoid psycho, or are there events in her life that led her there? I think it's a combination of the two

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

oh my word... I don't know HOW I ended up a defender of Cersei..... she really isn't my favorite character, but I do find her fascinating, I mean we are in the mind of a truly terrible person.

anyways, I've discussed her atrocious acts in childhood in a previous thread. (I wanna post this, how do you post a thread/post as alink?)

The point was that she did all of these things after she lost her mother!

I don't deny that Cersei is naturally a mean and selfish person, However I've argued that what Martin is telling us what can happen to such a person after severe loss. There's lots of crazies in the book, but we only get to see into HER head.

SO the question is, is she JUST a paranoid psycho, or are there events in her life that led her there? I think it's a combination of the two

Nature vs Nurture. Well she clearly wasn't quite right if at the age of four she sexually abused Tyrion, but Tywin was no nurturer + The Prophecy = Cersei?

[bbstark]

Nature vs Nurture. Well she clearly wasn't quite right if at the age of four she sexually abused Tyrion, but Tywin was no nurturer + The Prophecy = Cersei?

I do agree she's a fool to pay attention the Prophecy ... but her life would be equally screwed up without it! Think about it, even without it, she'd be a viscious, selfish, unloved person who doesn't know how to love. She goes through loss twice in her life, and both times loses her mind.

She relies on Jaime for love, but she's also jealous of Jaime. Jaime isn't jealous of her.

Also, if the first enduring, loving relationship of your life is a sexual one.... how can you possibly turn out ok???

She's incapable of earning someone's trust, and she doesn't deserve to be trusted.

She expresses grief and insecurity by being vicious, vengeful, hateful, sadistic ... goes on and on.

She doesn't need the prophecy to be a fascinating character... maybe it added to the list of reasons she went crazy? It definitely affects the way she makes decisions.

But yeah, like someone mentioned before, she reaps what she sows, but there's more to her than just "crazy" and "stupid".

Edited for clarity

[mcb]

Yes, and before attacking Melara, she twisted Tyrion's dick as a baby (according to Oberyn's account). This is essentially torture. But keep in mind Cersei grew up without love and without a mother. Kids learn love, social behavior and how to develop healthy relationships from their parents, and Cersei missed out on all of that.

That's kind of weak. Lots of people are orphans. Lots of people are orphaned at a young age. Few of them are murderers.

Oh yes, her ability to plan goes significantly downhill from the 3rd book. Let's see what happens...oh yes Significant loss. She loses

1. her son

2. her father

soooooo.....what's your point?

That she often acted stupid. Was I unclear? And how exactly do you connect her grief for Joffrey with her assumption that the Iron Bank would humbly wait as long as Her Grace judged it necessary? I don't see the connection.

We started out arguing as to with the information given, is Cersei's paranoia justified.

However some people dismiss her as stupid (i've posted some examples above)

Those two aren't mutually exclusive by any measure. Magnificent stupidity is a part of her persona, as well.

Plenty of people are stupid, but Cersei is broken.

1. as a child she suffers loss (her mother) but she's also a selfish, vain child, and it is turning her into a mean, terrible person

2. in the beginning we see Cersei through other people's eyes. All her life she's been pushed into doing something against her will and it's basically turned her into a vengeful bitch.

3. we get into her head AFTER she loses a child. Joffrey was monstrous, but he was still her child.

Cat lost her children, too. As far as she knew, she lost Bran, Rickon, Arya. That's three. The most unstable thing she's done afterwards was freeing the Kingslayer.

[Lord Damian]

I believe that Cercei and Jaime's real father was Aerys the mad king (read ADWD Selmy pov and remember AFFC, the burning of the Tower of the hand). Cercei is the "madness" half of the coin, Jaime is the "greatness" half of the same coin.

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

I do agree she's a fool to pay attention the Prophecy ... but her life would be equally screwed up without it! Think about it, even without it, she'd be a viscious, selfish, unloved person who doesn't know how to love. She goes through loss twice in her life, and both times loses her mind.

She relies on Jaime for love, but she's also jealous of Jaime. Jaime isn't jealous of her.

Also, if the first enduring, loving relationship of your life is a sexual one.... how can you possibly turn out ok???

She's incapable of earning someone's trust, and she doesn't deserve to be trusted.

She expresses grief and insecurity by being vicious, vengeful, hateful, sadistic ... goes on and on.

She doesn't need the prophecy to be a fascinating character... maybe it added to the list of reasons she went crazy? It definitely affects the way she makes decisions.

But yeah, like someone mentioned before, she reaps what she sows, but there's more to her than just "crazy" and "stupid".

Edited for clarity

No, what I meant was nature had her a little 'off,' she was not nurtured, she was too young to understand why Jaime was treated differently when they looked exactly the same. Tywin didn't nurture her at all, throw in the prophecy and does that equal the nutter we have now?

That was my point. Sorry I wasn't clear!

[bbstark]

That's kind of weak. Lots of people are orphans. Lots of people are orphaned at a young age. Few of them are murderers.

it comes down to the choices you make, that's what distinguishes Cersei from other orphanes. She makes terrible choices, and Martin shows us why.

I'm not going to address the stupidity point, frankly I'm tired of, people don't want to see past that, I'm sorry. It's a fact, Cersei makes THE WORST decisions after losing Joffrey. It throws her over the edge. I don't buy it. cersei isn't stupid, she stops using her mental capacities after losing Joff and after turning into an alcoholic.... grief and alcohol could bring down Tesla (genius), Churchill (strategist) even Ford (enterpreneur).

Cat lost her children, too. As far as she knew, she lost Bran, Rickon, Arya. That's three. The most unstable thing she's done afterwards was freeing the Kingslayer.

This is insulting. Comparing someone's loss of one child to somebody else's three? You honestly think that matters?

Come on!

And for the record I'm not excusing or justifying her actions, I'm only looking at the steps that got her there, and how at every turn she makes the wrong decisions... shes' backed herself in a corner, the path she took to get there is a literary masterpiece. So no, I'm not bored by her chapters, and I see why Martin chose to give us her POVs in AFFC and not earlier.

Edited for clarity.

[bbstark]

No, what I meant was nature had her a little 'off,' she was not nurtured, she was too young to understand why Jaime was treated differently when they looked exactly the same. Tywin didn't nurture her at all, throw in the prophecy and does that equal the nutter we have now?

That was my point. Sorry I wasn't clear!

well I think it definitely contributed to her slipping mental capacities, but I dont' think it's necessarily an equation. People are different..

Though I'll tell you this, I'm getting really tired of saying the same thing over and over again, :bang:

It's beneath me! (LOL if that isn't Cersiean, I don't know what is!!! :rofl:

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

well I think it definitely contributed to her slipping mental capacities, but I dont' think it's necessarily an equation. People are different..

Though I'll tell you this, I'm getting really tired of saying the same thing over and over again, :bang:

It's beneath me! (LOL if that isn't Cersiean, I don't know what is!!! :rofl:

You have come across that way, I must admit! :lol:

I think Cersei is a strong character if nothing else. When she was shorn for her walk, she didn't run in shame until halfway through.

[bbstark]

You have come across that way, I must admit! :lol:

I think Cersei is a strong character if nothing else. When she was shorn for her walk, she didn't run in shame until halfway through.

hahahaa, I know, I come on strong, but truth be told I'm a total sweetheart, I got a heart like butter...

maybe it's the avatar? It's a depiction of Visenya, and as you can see, Visenya is not amused ;)

about Cersei, well at first I hated the bitch, and then I started wondering why Martin would even bother with giving us a POV... and it all somehow came to me...

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

hahahaa, I know, I come on strong, but truth be told I'm a total sweetheart, I got a heart like butter...

maybe it's the avatar? It's a depiction of Visenya, and as you can see, Visenya is not amused ;)

about Cersei, well at first I hated the bitch, and then I started wondering why Martin would even bother with giving us a POV... and it all somehow came to me...

Like.... A prophecy? *Runs and hides*

On a serious note, I really enjoy your posts. I find my opinions and preconceived notions challenged and changed by many of your posts. Doesn't hurt that you write in a way I can actually understand. :P

Visenya rocks if for no reason other than she took The Vale without blood.

[Ame]

Cersei did figure out Varys but

it comes down to the choices you make, that's what distinguishes Cersei from other orphanes. She makes terrible choices, and Martin shows us why.

I'm not going to address the stupidity point, frankly I'm tired of, people don't want to see past that, I'm sorry. It's a fact, Cersei makes THE WORST decisions after losing Joffrey. It throws her over the edge. I don't buy it. cersei isn't stupid, she stops using her mental capacities after losing Joff and after turning into an alcoholic.... grief and alcohol could bring down Tesla (genius), Churchill (strategist) even Ford (enterpreneur).

This is insulting. Comparing someone's loss of one child to somebody else's three? You honestly think that matters?

Come on!

And for the record I'm not excusing or justifying her actions, I'm only looking at the steps that got her there, and how at every turn she makes the wrong decisions... shes' backed herself in a corner, the path she took to get there is a literary masterpiece. So no, I'm not bored by her chapters, and I see why Martin chose to give us her POVs in AFFC and not earlier.

Edited for clarity.

I agree completely except with one thing; is she drunk on alchohol or on power in AFfC? I am asking because she doesn't seem to forget things when she drinks which indicates high tolerance for wine; we see no distinction in her PoV between her drunk and sober moments; no thoughts of "I shouldn't be doing it now I need to delay it if they see me this wobbly I lose credibility".

She does some very smart moves before AFfC; but it is then that she loses it.

[bbstark]

Like.... A prophecy? *Runs and hides*

On a serious note, I really enjoy your posts. I find my opinions and preconceived notions challenged and changed by many of your posts. Doesn't hurt that you write in a way I can actually understand. :P

Visenya rocks if for no reason other than she took The Vale without blood.

aww I blush! :blushing: thank you.... I try to admit when I've been proven wrong. I solve problems and form arguments for a living, so it's dangerous to attach yourself emotionally to a view or another ;)

I agree completely except with one thing; is she drunk on alchohol or on power in AFfC? I am asking because she doesn't seem to forget things when she drinks which indicates high tolerance for wine; we see no distinction in her PoV between her drunk and sober moments; no thoughts of "I shouldn't be doing it now I need to delay it if they see me this wobbly I lose credibility".

She does some very smart moves before AFfC; but it is then that she loses it.

ohhh that's an excellent point! I've missed that, thank you! She sees herself like the law of the land... I like how her power and influence on people around her crumbles because of her inablity to earn trust and loyalty, rather than just demand it.

But I think she's always seen her father demanding loyalty and obedience, and thinks that's the best way to rule.

It completely fails her though, because she doesn't grasp what her power is made of.