Cersei's Paranoia

[KOM]

She was always paranoid, she was paranoid in GOT, she was convinced the Starks were plotting against the Lannisters from the very outset. But, when you are committing high treason with your brother and have been since the day of your marriage, some level of paranoia would be prudent, no matter who you are.

Yeah. The constant stress buildup of over ten years of "if they find out I'm dead" level worry... that's not even on top of the societal misogny that completely thwarts her ambitions (regardless of how competent she is).

[lieswithwolves]

I like how her power and influence on people around her crumbles because of her inablity to earn trust and loyalty, rather than just demand it.

But I think she's always seen her father demanding loyalty and obedience, and thinks that's the best way to rule.

It completely fails her though, because she doesn't grasp what her power is made of.

The one thing that always bugs me about Cersei (and I do think she's an interesting character and I don't think she's stupid) is that she expects as the daughter of Tywin that she will be able to command the same respect / fear / loyalty / obedience from everyone as he did. Partially because she's got the rose-tinted specs on about Daddy and his power and also because she knows that she's always been treated differently than Jaime (or males in general) so why would she expect it to be different in this case?

[bbstark]

The one thing that always bugs me about Cersei (and I do think she's an interesting character and I don't think she's stupid) is that she expects as the daughter of Tywin that she will be able to command the same respect / fear / loyalty / obedience from everyone as he did. Partially because she's got the rose-tinted specs on about Daddy and his power and also because she knows that she's always been treated differently than Jaime (or males in general) so why would she expect it to be different in this case?

personally what fascinates me most about Cersei is how different her motives are, and her decisions, from her brother... (it's hard to argue that hers are much much worse)

all we really see, is how these diverge when we are given their POVs, but from the way they talk about each other, they seem to mention some sort of past, when they were the same. However that's not what we see at all! To us, Jaime and Cersei are two completely different people. Cersei is a certified lunatic who's on a downward spiral (due to her drinking, power, her grief, and her malice) and Jaime strikes me as a misunderstood bro.

As for Tywin, for all his intelligence, his cunning, his strategy, he strikes me as a fool. For a man to get to his age and status, and not realize the difference between earnining respect and loyalty vs. demanding it, is kinda sad, to be honest. He seems to think he doesn't need to earn anyone's (respect and loyalty), and doesn't really value it as much (as you can see in regards to his musings on Robb, and how he seems to inspire loyalty) and he passes this on to Cersei. He outmaneuvers Robb, but is eventually destroyed by his own children. ( btw. I really like this plot line!)

Jaime and Tyrion are somehow different, and THIS really intrigues me. Tyrion buys loyalty, and Jaime rejects it as a fallacy (until he meets Brienne).

I really wonder though how much influence Tywin really had on his children? this seems worth exploring...

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Your points are valid except for the sixth one. If she thinks Tyrion killed Joffrey the Tyrells wouldn't be too much of a threat. I need a reread but I forget why she's suspicious of them in this regaurd, it screams paranoia though.

[Buried Treasure]

Right, so I just came across the nth post dismissing Cersei's actions in Feast as simple paranoia. Rather than constantly point out the same thing n+1 times, I figured I'd just make a new thread on the topic. Also my ulcers have been getting better and can now bear the brunt of a Cersei-thread.

My argument is that Cersei's paranoia in Feast is quite rational based on the information available to her at that point in time.

1. Her brother, who's sworn to snatch her happiness away murders her son at his wedding feast.
   
   
2. He escapes from the Black Cells, murders her father and disappears.
   
   
3. Varys and a guard disappear the same night.
   
   
4. In said guard's cell is a coin from Highgarden, of the sort Olennna Tyrell uses to pay tradesmen.
   
   
5. Hidden tunnels are found in the walls of the Tower of the Hand-for all she knows, Varys or someone else could've been hiding there.
   
   
6. Her second son is surrounded by the same Tyrells who murdered her first son.
   

Now, if you were faced with the above circumstances, wouldn't you be a little twitchy?

Cersei took the presence of the coin in the gaolers rooms as evidence that the Tyrells paid for Tyrions escape. Yet we know from Jaime's POV that they had nothing to do with it. The coin was probably either left by some long forgotten gaoler or planted by Varys. Cersei wasn't wrong because she came to the wrong conclusion (based on the information she had it was a valid possibility) - she was wrong because she never considered any other possibility. In this instance her paranoia about the Tyrell's narrowed her focus so that she couldn't see the the bigger picture. If she had been less paranoid about them she would have been more likely to make the correct moves in the game.

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

Resurrection!

Because the OP by Winter is essentially all my own thoughts on the subject (i.e. The Feast and the Frogecy: Adding a Cersei POV.) But I'm not able to star-on-the-go because Tapatalk is the worst and won't let me save a topic with activity over a month old. Hence, new activity. (Plus, this is just a good topic anyway and deserving of the Lord's Kiss.)

Done in the Light of the Lord.

[Winter's Knight]

Resurrection!

Because the OP by Winter is essentially all my own thoughts on the subject (i.e. The Feast and the Frogecy: Adding a Cersei POV.) But I'm not able to star-on-the-go because Tapatalk is the worst and won't let me save a topic with activity over a month old. Hence, new activity. (Plus, this is just a good topic anyway and deserving of the Lord's Kiss.)

Done in the Light of the Lord.

I always took you for a Drowned Woman.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't know how to explain myself better because English isn't my mother language but...

...I partially agree. I think she's justified on her FEAR due to all the reasons exposed. Then, the sane thing to do was to surround herself with people that she could have trusted to help her. But nope, she wanted to do everything by herself because she's the Queeeeen and she's Tywin with teeeeeeats and then, her fears collapsed into plain PARANOIA. Paranoia isn't the same as fear. Paranoia is when she started thinking that everybody who wanted to help her or give her good advice dismissed her due to her being a woman or wanted to take her power from her. Maggy the Frog or not, Cersei has always thought herself more than what she really is. She's capable but she's not capable enough to handle the Seven Kingdoms.

[The Frosted King]

I once stole a 2.99$ battery set from the dollar store. As a kid.

One time only.

Every time i went back to the store, i was always fearful that this time i'd be detained and arrested and my parents called.

Never happened, but i was always leery about the store until it closed and reopened under a new name and management.

I stole a pack of AA's.

Cersei stole the throne, and propped up her false dynasty using countless corpses.

Of course she's paranoid.

The sweet deaths of her father and son only heighten the condition.

I only wish she had fewer sleepless nights.

The realm would be far better if she took a permanent nap.

The price for stealing power and being a sadistic brute is fitful rest.

Catelyn likely slept the sleep of the just while in Winterfell.

[The Frosted King]

And for the record, Cersei never came across as smart to me.

Smart treason(is there such a thing?) would be having one trueborn n two bastards, or having first the bastard and then two trueborns.

Her Robert removal plan was a pebbly nipple gone dry. The milk of that plan was miraculous.

Her Tyrion removal plan on the Blackwater was moronic as well.

Her only claim to fame was arresting Eddard Stark, and that only worked because LF wanted it to happen.

[mushroomshirt]

“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

ETA: Oops should have re-read the thread before I posted that quote!

[mambru]

Her Robert removal plan was a pebbly nipple gone dry. The milk of that plan was miraculous.

FWIW, Varys told Ned that if the drunken boar hunt plan had failed, Cersei had a backup plan for Robert to be killed by a stray arrow or some other 'accident'. "The forest is the abattoir of the gods,' I think he said. So Cersei was lucky that the most easily deniable plan worked - but she apparently wasn't depending on that luck.

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

I always took you for a Drowned Woman.

I'm actually a disciple of Moqorro. Who, as we all know, has mastered the magics of Wind, Water and Fire. And I sense some solid agnosticism - at the least - in Asha. So, of course, at the feet of The Real True Wizard of Magiscience is the place I gotta be.

Yet even he dismisses the practice of Drowning to be a bunch of lucky CPR tomfoolery. Resurrection is Fire.

[stateofdissipation]

Right, so I just came across the nth post dismissing Cersei's actions in Feast as simple paranoia. Rather than constantly point out the same thing n+1 times, I figured I'd just make a new thread on the topic. Also my ulcers have been getting better and can now bear the brunt of a Cersei-thread.

My argument is that Cersei's paranoia in Feast is quite rational based on the information available to her at that point in time.

• Her brother, who's sworn to snatch her happiness away murders her son at his wedding feast.
• He escapes from the Black Cells, murders her father and disappears.
• Varys and a guard disappear the same night.
• In said guard's cell is a coin from Highgarden, of the sort Olennna Tyrell uses to pay tradesmen.
• Hidden tunnels are found in the walls of the Tower of the Hand-for all she knows, Varys or someone else could've been hiding there.
• Her second son is surrounded by the same Tyrells who murdered her first son.

Now, if you were faced with the above circumstances, wouldn't you be a little twitchy?

All fellow Maggi-bashers welcome,

Maggi the Frog is a pointless addition to cartoonise Cersei by turning her paranoia upto eleven when there was no need for that extra push. Consider: she believes that her younger brother murdered her firstborn son and her father. Furthermore she has evidence that her son's wife's family probably had a hand in this-why does she or the reader need a stupid prophecy to further unhinge her?

Furthermore, pre-Feast the Cersei/Tyrion relationship was toxically complex: she held him responsible for the death of their mother but did not outright hate him-she is furious when Cat kidnaps him, yells at Blount when he disobeyed Tyrion, and shows glimmers of some affection throughout Clash.

Then Maggi comes along and goes all "Nope! there's no nuance here-she's always hated and feared him since she was ten." Cripes.

And there's the prophecy itself-until another younger and more beautiful than you-excuse me, but when did this turn into Snow White? Who wants to bet that next book, she has Qyburn concoct a poison peach for Margery?

Here is what this thread is not: It is not a justification of Qyburn.

The fortune... not prophecy... is more about its power over Cersei than it's power as a prophecy... She has allowed it to rule her.

Nothing in the prophecy comes true if Cersei doesn't act....

The death of her friend...

Marry the King (she did it willingly... hardest stretch though)

Have 3 children (stop at 2 or have another)

if the fortune comes true it will be at her own hand....

If another more beautiful queen throws her down and takes all she holds dear.... that is snow white..,

If Brianne the beauty.... does it is an ironic twist,

Jamie was all that she held dear when the fortune was told... and her losing the title of queen is not necessarily to the younger and more beautiful... it is caused by or happens with...

If she kills Tommen then she is no longer queen... (She aborted Robert's baby because she hated him. How would she feel about Tommen after losing Jamie to Brianne of all people.)

If Cersei kills Tommen.... does Jamie (the last person she would have ever thought would harm her) kill her?

If it is about the power of the prophecy.... yes it is cheesy... if it is about the power of the prophecy over cersei... that is pretty cool.