Cersei's Paranoia

[Winter's Knight]

Right, so I just came across the nth post dismissing Cersei's actions in Feast as simple paranoia. Rather than constantly point out the same thing n+1 times, I figured I'd just make a new thread on the topic. Also my ulcers have been getting better and can now bear the brunt of a Cersei-thread.

My argument is that Cersei's paranoia in Feast is quite rational based on the information available to her at that point in time.

1. Her brother, who's sworn to snatch her happiness away murders her son at his wedding feast.
   
2. He escapes from the Black Cells, murders her father and disappears.
   
3. Varys and a guard disappear the same night.
   
4. In said guard's cell is a coin from Highgarden, of the sort Olennna Tyrell uses to pay tradesmen.
   
5. Hidden tunnels are found in the walls of the Tower of the Hand-for all she knows, Varys or someone else could've been hiding there.
   
6. Her second son is surrounded by the same Tyrells who murdered her first son.
   

Now, if you were faced with the above circumstances, wouldn't you be a little twitchy?

All fellow Maggi-bashers welcome,

Maggi the Frog is a pointless addition to cartoonise Cersei by turning her paranoia upto eleven when there was no need for that extra push. Consider: she believes that her younger brother murdered her firstborn son and her father. Furthermore she has evidence that her son's wife's family probably had a hand in this-why does she or the reader need a stupid prophecy to further unhinge her?

Furthermore, pre-Feast the Cersei/Tyrion relationship was toxically complex: she held him responsible for the death of their mother but did not outright hate him-she is furious when Cat kidnaps him, yells at Blount when he disobeyed Tyrion, and shows glimmers of some affection throughout Clash.

Then Maggi comes along and goes all "Nope! there's no nuance here-she's always hated and feared him since she was ten." Cripes.

And there's the prophecy itself-until another younger and more beautiful than you-excuse me, but when did this turn into Snow White? Who wants to bet that next book, she has Qyburn concoct a poison peach for Margery?

Here is what this thread is not: It is not a justification of Qyburn.

[Theda Baratheon]

Multiple murders, family and alliance betrayal and tunnels in the walls are enough to induce extreme paranoia in everyone, I don't care what anyone says. :dunno:

EDIT:

I also completely agree with you on the latter points. I hate the bloody prophecy, turning her from a complex and interesting character to a bloody quintessential cartoon villainess.

I MUCH preferred the Tyrion/Cersei relationship before we get her POV.

I might be one of the only ones that actually fucking loved her POV's aswell, I just got sad that she was turned into this absolutely bonkers creature. But the paranoia is definitely justified seeing as what as happened to her. And what IS still happening to her and her children.

That said, I still don't think she's a very nice person at all, but she's one of my favourite characters.

[TalalOfDorne]

Her POVs were one of the best.

As to her paranoia: Yes, her brother and the Tyrells both killed some of her family members, and now she doesn't know where the first is and basically lives with the latter everyday and has to see them close to her now only son. And what Varys did with the coin should only raise suspicion.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I agree she has reason to be paranoid but the thing is in most cases the evidence merely confirmed what she'd already believed. She already believes these things the facts are incedential, and simply builds up her mind to believe she's always right.

And maybe I'm in the minority but i like Maggie. She sort of shows us that Cersei is her own worst enemy. All the bad that's happened to her in the novels has been from her own actions. The prophecy seems pointless but I assume it's supposed to show us that it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Mr Hodor]

she has a reason to be paranoid. But so does Jamie and everyone else, but they retain their rationality... mea

The real bonkers were her treatment of Kevan, hargery, her stupid plan against Margaery, her smallest council, arming of septon,assassination plan of Jon Snow (who btw has done nothing against her), her treatment of tommen, her plan to attack margery (as doran says in adwd). She made great enemies and false friends....and considered herself the heiress of Tywin

[The Frosted King]

The thing that makes the paranoia of Cersei so inexcusable, is that it all came down to her actions.

Joffrey died because Joffrey was a veritable shitstain of a person, and EVERYBODY saw it but her.

Her father, her brother, her husband, her uncle, etc.

Her brother slew her son and her father because they were horrible towards him. She herself is the same exact way.

She could've made herself her brothers champion, and he'd protect her and her children, but she didn't and knows why he'd hate her enough to kill her children. Though he didn't.

Everything wrong with Cersei(which is everything about her) comes down to transference. Her putting her bad behavior onto other people.

[Starfell]

she has a reason to be paranoid. But so does Jamie and everyone else, but they retain their rationality... mea

The real bonkers were her treatment of Kevan, hargery, her stupid plan against Margaery, her smallest council, arming of septon,assassination plan of Jon Snow (who btw has done nothing against her), her treatment of tommen, her plan to attack margery (as doran says in adwd). She made great enemies and false friends....and considered herself the heiress of Tywin

:agree:

I'm also fairly sure that the Tyrells wouldn't be so stupid as to pay anyone they plotted with with coins minted in the Reach, to me that was obviously Varys' handiwork and it goes to show how far Cersei has fallen into crazyland (justifiably or otherwise) that she doesn't see anything fishy about that

[Warrior Queen]

I don't blame Cersei for going crazy.

I don't know where/when it was said, but at some point she says: it's all fallen on me. And i think she really feels like all that weight is crushing her. Add that up to the constant paranoia of having her son killed (after already having lost her first son). I think lots of people would go crazy under such circumstances. Crazy or not, I still love Cersei!

[Mr Hodor]

The thing that makes the paranoia of Cersei so inexcusable, is that it all came down to her actions.

Joffrey died because Joffrey was a veritable shitstain of a person, and EVERYBODY saw it but her.

Her father, her brother, her husband, her uncle, etc.

Her brother slew her son and her father because they were horrible towards him. She herself is the same exact way.

She could've made herself her brothers champion, and he'd protect her and her children, but she didn't and knows why he'd hate her enough to kill her children. Though he didn't.

Everything wrong with Cersei(which is everything about her) comes down to transference. Her putting her bad behavior onto other people.

??? Tyrion didnt do that...

[TalalOfDorne]

??? Tyrion didnt do that...

Thats not what Cersei thinks

ETA: Or everybody else for that matter

[Theda Baratheon]

??? Tyrion didnt do that...

But this is from Cersei's perspective.

[Fire Eater]

she has a reason to be paranoid. But so does Jamie and everyone else, but they retain their rationality... mea

The real bonkers were her treatment of Kevan, hargery, her stupid plan against Margaery, her smallest council, arming of septon,assassination plan of Jon Snow (who btw has done nothing against her), her treatment of tommen, her plan to attack margery (as doran says in adwd). She made great enemies and false friends....and considered herself the heiress of Tywin

I think you mean the plan to kill Trystane Doran mentions. Cersei gains nothing from his death, and the Martells have shown to be pretty lenient. The Red Viper did champion Tyrion, but that was clearly because it was likely the only chance Oberyn would ever get to kill Gregor and avenge Elia.

I think Maggy spices things up, and makes them more interesting like how her children will die and the identity of the valonqar. Cersei's paranoia has been building up for quite some time.

[Theda Baratheon]

I think you mean the plant kill Trystane Doran mentions. Cersei gains nothing from his death, and the Martells have shown to be pretty lenient. The Red Viper did champion Tyrion, but that was clearly because it was likely the only chance Oberyn would ever get to kill Gregor and avenge Elia.

I think Maggy spices things up, and makes them more interesting like how her children will die and the identity of the valonqar. Cersei's paranoia has been building up for quite some time.

This is also partly why I hate it to be honest.

Imagine how much of a fucking shock it would have been to have Jaime kill Cersei BEFORE, and now we're just WAITING for it to happen..

[bbstark]

Multiple murders, family and alliance betrayal and tunnels in the walls are enough to induce extreme paranoia in everyone, I don't care what anyone says. :dunno:

I might be one of the only ones that actually fucking loved her POV's aswell, I just got sad that she was turned into this absolutely bonkers creature. But the paranoia is definitely justified seeing as what as happened to her. And what IS still happening to her and her children.

That said, I still don't think she's a very nice person at all, but she's one of my favourite characters.

You're not the only one, I very much enjoyed "my so-called life" the Cersei edition.

Up to the point that we get a Cersei POV, we see her as "the Evil Queen", but it raises questions, how does she get there? What does she want? Does she even know what she wants? What drives her? Who does she trust? Where is she vulnerable? Answers to these questions are fascinating for most characters, so I'm simply stoked that Martin enlightens us about her.

The web of paranoia that is weaved around her is absolutely brilliant! This thread is fantastic. Everytime I see posters dismissing her as stupid, I have to wonder if they are missing the point of the POV structure, or if perhaps they don't know what perspective means?

[Quiet Isle]

"Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you."

[Cas Stark]

She was always paranoid, she was paranoid in GOT, she was convinced the Starks were plotting against the Lannisters from the very outset. But, when you are committing high treason with your brother and have been since the day of your marriage, some level of paranoia would be prudent, no matter who you are.

[mcb]

You're not the only one, I very much enjoyed "my so-called life" the Cersei edition.

Up to the point that we get a Cersei POV, we see her as "the Evil Queen",

And then we get Cersei POV, and we think "wow, she's not as nice as she appeared".

but it raises questions, how does she get there?

The Melara incident suggests she's always been this way. A murderer at age ten? Just because your friend has a crush on your boy? It's as if she'd been born evil.

The web of paranoia that is weaved around her is absolutely brilliant! This thread is fantastic. Everytime I see posters dismissing her as stupid, I have to wonder if they are missing the point of the POV structure, or if perhaps they don't know what perspective means?

Let's make Aurane Waters Lord High Admiral. Let's allow the Faith to rearm. The Iron Bank can wait. What can possibly go wrong?

She may not be precisely stupid, but she often pretends very convincingly.

[Kittykatknits]

She was always paranoid, she was paranoid in GOT, she was convinced the Starks were plotting against the Lannisters from the very outset. But, when you are committing high treason with your brother and have been since the day of your marriage, some level of paranoia would be prudent, no matter who you are.

But she also wasn't that far off. The Starks did think the Lannisters were guilty of Jon Arryn's death and one of Ned's big goals in KL was to find proof for it and protect Robert. So, I wouldn't say she was entirely wrong. Her mistaken assumption came from a belief that Ned must want power or seek to somehow increase his influence which we know was not at all the case.

[brighidg]

I actually enjoy the prophecy. It gives her whole ascent and descent a Lord (and Lady) Macbeth feel.

[bbstark]

And then we get Cersei POV, and we think "wow, she's not as nice as she appeared".

The Melara incident suggests she's always been this way. A murderer at age ten? Just because your friend has a crush on your boy? It's as if she'd been born evil.

Yes, and before attacking Melara, she twisted Tyrion's dick as a baby (according to Oberyn's account). This is essentially torture. But keep in mind Cersei grew up without love and without a mother. Kids learn love, social behavior and how to develop healthy relationships from their parents, and Cersei missed out on all of that. I believe if she had grown up with her mother, she'd be more of a Regina George (i.e. Mean girl) than a straight out evil villain.( and YES, this is merely speculation. Feel free to come up with an alternative idea, I'd love to hear it :) )

Her POV serves to show us how hollow you can be if you grow up without that central figure in your life. Don't dismiss her so easily. We can learn a lot from Cersei.

Let's make Aurane Waters Lord High Admiral. Let's allow the Faith to rearm. The Iron Bank can wait. What can possibly go wrong?

She may not be precisely stupid, but she often pretends very convincingly.

Oh yes, her ability to plan goes significantly downhill from the 3rd book. Let's see what happens...oh yes Significant loss. She loses

1. her son

2. her father

soooooo.....what's your point?