Dragons stirring - A Heretical look at Dany

[DrunkSister]

Well, that discounts the possibility that the prophesy is sent by R'hllor and narrows it down a bit (even if we don't know to what lol).

I don't know what to think about this, because I get the strong this 'Delphic oracle' vibe from this scene, and we know they were a humbug. :D Because of this subjective impression I read it as widows manipulating the khals into following their lead with superstition. But that was before we had Mel, Varamyr and Bran 'the Tree' as POV.

The more I reread the more I doubt the whole 'magic had gone away from the world and is coming back' should be taken for granted. Not that it isn't true, but that it is more complicated/nuanced.

If the woman is really seeing things in the smoke, however badly she interprets them, as opposed to making things up because she has no power to see future, then she is one more sign that there were magical occurrences throughout the time we believe magic is 'on the low setting'. This time in Essos.

Damn, I want WoW. Grr..

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

I'm not smart enough to add my own ideas, so I will just blatant place mark. :)

[Lykos]

NSEW, if you have ideas, you´re smart enough. Just share them, they might develop into dragons. :)

Mirijam, yes the prophecies of the Oracle of Delphi were humbug, but they could sway the public. A determined stratego, like Themistokles, could take a prophecy that said that Athens would be saved by "wooden walls" as a preteext to make the Athenians invest in a new fleet, which he had wanted all along. Of course it helped that they had just discovered a rich silver lode in one of their mines to pay for the fleet. The city of Athens wasn´t really saved by the fleet though, but the people of Athens and their culture along with the concept of "democracy" were saved from the Persians. This didn´t stop Alexander to use the burning of the city of Athens as a reason for retaliation when he invaded Persia.

Here is what Daeron told Duncan in the Hedge Knight about his dream.

I dreamed of you and a dead dragon, you see. A great beast, huge, with wings so large they could cover this meadow. It had fallen on top of you, but you were alive and the dragon was dead.” - “Did I kill it?” - “That I could not say, but you were there, and so was the dragon.

Here is what Doreah told Daenerys about the origin of dragons.

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

I don´t know what this second moon is. There have been speculations that it was a comet, maybe the red comet, or meteorite, maybe the one Dawn was forged from. Then there is the statement of Martin that dragons have always been around, but maybe the second moon incident coincided with dragons being put to their use by the Valyrians?

I´m not sure how you organise this "re-read", it seems to me that since it´s a spinoff of the actual re-read I´m free to post whatever I think relevant to the topic without regard at what point of the story it is mentioned, but I´m not sure so I just link to something I found interesting.

[DrunkSister]

@ Lykos

Thank you for that quote from The Hedge Knight. That huge dragon is a Targ that was killed by his brother in that melee?

If that is the dragon that was dead in the dream then Daeron isn't more specific than Dany IMO.

(Anybody else has an opinion or another character to contrast with?)

In regards to Dosh Khaleen being an 'oracle' we can take this discussion in at least two directions:

• If they have the power to see the future in their smoke, what does that mean for the general state of magic in the World of Asoiaf? Since we cannot be sure (but they would have looked right fools if the baby was a girl!) the conclusion would have to stay hypothetical.
  

• If they don't, then we can rightfully ask what was the meaning of proclaiming Drogo's son to be the Stallion That Mounts the World? Why then, why him? What were they trying to accomplish? What was the strategy and politic of that move? What would the long term strategy of having such a conqueror, and what is the gain for the Dothraki as people?
  

Now I am going to move away from the keyboard and think on this for a time. Perhaps I will reread again to see if anything comes up.

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

From what Doreah told Dany about the origin of dragons, I wonder if (crackpot)

Daenerys IS the second moon. In a DWD we know Dany bled, and Rhaego was implied to be a dragon like creature. Perhaps Dany isn't infertile in the traditional sense... Maybe she 'cannot bear a living child,' but she can bear a living dragon.

Crackpot I know, but the symbolism of Moon of my Life, My Sun-And-Stars. Perhaps Dany will find the Sun again and produce more dragons?

Shaky theory but figured I'd share anyway.

[Lykos]

Mirijam, yes the dragon was Baelor Breakspear, hand of the king and one of the most respected amongst the people of Westeros and the forum. :laugh: That huge.

The dragon dreams of the Targaryens remind me more of the green dreams of Bran and Jojen. While the green sight Bran experiences in the cave seems more specific. The flame vision of the red priests seems quite specific too, but incomplete and more prone to interference, Melisandre´s at least. :dunno:

I think these visions and "prophecies" work on several levels. They serve as foreshadowing for the reader, they influence the actions of characters and are therefore sometimes self-fulfilling, but can also come true in an unexpected way. They are rarely literal and can have as many meanings as there are interpretations.

I think magic / magical visions were always there, only more or less pronounced (probably depending on the believe people put in it, which in turn depends on the state of the world / society).

Maybe the Dosh Khaleen saw the potential of change in Dany. I mean the upheaval that Dany´s social agenda causes, could be well described with the words that announce the Stallion that mounts the world. Different factions will try to make those words fit their agenda.

NSEW, Dany being the second moon works well with the Dothraki belief that the moon is a godess, the wife of the sun, and Dany calls Drogo her sun and stars. This has been speculated before.

I think it would be too literal especially with regard to Rhaego, whose body we´ve never seen. It has only been described to Dany by Mirri and the whole build up to the pyre is very dodgy. But I see the connection of the moon to female principles in many religions in Martin´s world as extremely important. I equate the waxing moon with the maid, the full moon with the mother, the waning moon with the crone and maybe the new moon is the stranger or part of it.

[DrunkSister]

Lykos,

I agree with everything you have said on the topic of prophesies and I would like to draw some conclusions from it:

• All humans of the WoAsoiaf have natural magical abilities. They are spread out over continents and races and might manifest in different ways but are for every place and race present.
  
• => Human race is no less magical than other races/species. [i have been mislead by the genre tropes and early POVs into believing that is not the case]
  
• Some humans have more talent than others (Ghost of the High Heart, Targaryen dreamers, greenseers...)
  
• Through training and tools they become better, as well as by cooperating with other magical species.
  
• Some cultures educate these people to use their talents and then let them advise and lead.
  
• OTOH some cultures tell them they are delusional/monsters/aberrations/superstitious and disregard the gifts/warnings. [though I can only think of Westeros as an example :dunno: ]
  

Does this look sound so far?

Then, what does this tell you about the cultures that disregard the gifts? Why, when there is advantage to having magical powers? What was the price that maesters thought too high?

Etc.

[off topic]

Old gods are another factor where symbiosis with other forms of life had developed human potential to the whole new level.

Now here we have a question, Catelyn and other Andals know about signs and portents and can thus be included in the being advised/lead but I am not sure about the symbiosis part because every individual that I can recall has "blood of First Men flowing though their veins".

I am correct in this? Can anybody think of a contrary example?

Then, what in the world happened to First Men? What makes them different?

And so (if I had been correct every step of the way) we come to the very heart of 'heresy': what has happened when First Men made the pact with the Children, and what happened with the Last Hero and the forming of the Night Watch.

[/off topic]

[nanother]

@ Lykos: thanks for the Hedge Kinght quote. IIRC Mystery Kinght also featured a prophetic dream, can't look it up ATM.

I don´t know what this second moon is. There have been speculations that it was a comet, maybe the red comet, or meteorite, maybe the one Dawn was forged from. Then there is the statement of Martin that dragons have always been around, but maybe the second moon incident coincided with dragons being put to their use by the Valyrians?

I´m not sure how you organise this "re-read", it seems to me that since it´s a spinoff of the actual re-read I´m free to post whatever I think relevant to the topic without regard at what point of the story it is mentioned, but I´m not sure so I just link to something I found interesting.

It's fairly free-form, I guess. I do use it to add bit's from the Dany chapters as we encounter them during the re-read, and my personal preference is not to jump around too much, but that's simply because I'm focusing on the main re-read and don't have the capacity to follow discussions encompassing Dany chapters from all over the books. But as long as it stays relevant to the magic of dragons, and possible parallels with the CotF/WW magic, just post whatever you think is interesting.

Re: second moon: I have this utter crackpot that I'm inexplicably fond of - Salla, in his story about Azor Ahai, mentions that Nissa Nissa's cry when AA plunged Lightbringer into her breast, caused a crack on the moon. So maybe the dragons come from that cracking of the moon, and there never was a second one. (I don't seriously think it's true, but I .ike it anyway :P)

• If they don't, then we can rightfully ask what was the meaning of proclaiming Drogo's son to be the Stallion That Mounts the World? Why then, why him? What were they trying to accomplish? What was the strategy and politic of that move? What would the long term strategy of having such a conqueror, and what is the gain for the Dothraki as people?
  

While we still have two books to go, seeing how little we're told about the Dothraki, I don't see Martin going down this route. That sort of thing only works if readers have a solid idea about the history and politics of the people involved. As for the the implications about magic - I'm guessing there could have been something in those herbs to do the Dothraki equivalent of opening the third eye, or it could be something similar to green dreams (not sure whether they have to do with the third eye)... don't really have the time to think about it now...

From what Doreah told Dany about the origin of dragons, I wonder if (crackpot)

Daenerys IS the second moon. In a DWD we know Dany bled, and Rhaego was implied to be a dragon like creature. Perhaps Dany isn't infertile in the traditional sense... Maybe she 'cannot bear a living child,' but she can bear a living dragon.

Crackpot I know, but the symbolism of Moon of my Life, My Sun-And-Stars. Perhaps Dany will find the Sun again and produce more dragons?

Shaky theory but figured I'd share anyway.

I think Dany was pretty much thinking along those lines (edit to clarify: the Moon/Sun-and-stars symbolism) when she asked Doreah to educate her in the art of love. However, I think Rhaego being dragon-like has more to do with Mirri's meddling (IIRC it was also long dead, even though Dany's child was alive and kicking just before). Not sure if she could have caused Rhaego to 'swap places' with the stone dragon in the egg in some weird way. I mean, it doesn't make sense, but considering the death-for-life principle, Rhaego's death had to be the price for the dragon's life somehow.

[Lykos]

Mirijam, yes, only better say magical potential instead of ability.

I mostly agree with Lummel and just want to add, regarding the hereditary link to "magic" powers, that Martin hasn´t limited special traits to the ruling families (Targs & Starks). There is a SSM, where he explicitly states that dragonriders don´t have to be Targaryen and the most experienced skinchanger is Varamyr and we are told that one in thousand has this gift.

There is also a strong hint that Martin sees the attempts to concentrate these special traits in one family as unnatural.

We have a high number of mentally instable Targaryens and it´s yet unclear wether this is due to the bonding with dragons or their inbreeding. I also see a connection of the Starks of old with the White Walkers, a sacrifice out of necessity (probably to negotiate), which other people try to emulate in order to gain power.

Martin clearly sees this as highly dangerous. I think the Starks have earned the loyalty of the North by handling the "sword without a hilt", mostly without abusing it and taking the negative consequences onto themselves (rather than having thralls or slaves blow a dragonhorn).

"Signs and portents" is hardly common knowledge, it´s mostly lost, and even us readers don´t know for sure that the Ptwp ismentioned in the book, though I think it likely, but you´re right that every human can be lead / influenced by it. It seems to depend on the willingness to accept the guidance or how people let it influence them when they reject it.

There is an often referenced book that influenced many authors incl. some that Martin named as influence, The Golden Bough. Frazer states that the evolution of culture goes from magic to religion to science.

The question is wether and if, how, Martin has implemented this idea into the Song of Ice and Fire.

We have the patriarchal institution of the Citadel to represent science, but there are different factions amongst the Maesters and a few study magic. Most notably Marwyn, but also Aemon and Luwin.

The Faith seems to oppose magic and is the institution that gives the society of Westeros it´s moral code and some basic protection to the weak, but it´s corrupt and hypocrytical.

Other religions like R´hllorism rely on magic tricks and spread the belief in a hero with magical powers, who´ll defeat death, while the faith of the old gods (the Children´s religion) teaches a "natural" magic and an acceptance of death as transcending into a different state.

ETA: Clarity and nanother, yes in the MK DaemonII Blackfyre has a dream of a dragon hatching and Duncan becoming his "White Knight". Egg revealed himself as a Targaryen and thus became the hatching dragon, according to Bloodraven, and we know that Dunk became his captain of the King´s Guard later.

[Melifeather]

I think the old crone of Vaes Dothrak got it right, or at least partially right. She saw Rhaego as the Stallion that mounts the world, and he was...sort of. His life allowed the rebirth of one of the dragons, and Drogo's life too allowed the hatching of another dragon, and Daenerys is mother to them all.

[nenya~]

I've been a bit busy and fell behind in the readings. I've been reading everything in the threads, but just haven't had much to say about the current discussions. Just wanted to add some stuff I've noticed now that I've finally caught up.

Dany in Vaes Dothrak:

"No steel was permitted within the sacred confines of Vaes Dothrak, beneath the shadow of the Mother of Mountains..."

A procession followed them out onto the godsway, the broad grassy road that ran through the heart of Vaes Dothrak, from the horse gate to the Mother of Mountains.

Jon going to say his vows in the weirwood grove:

Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. “This is a sacred place, we will not defile it.”

There is a parallel in the Daenarys V and Jon VI chapters (Chapter 45/47) where both Jon and Dany go to places considered sacred. Jon goes to a godswood with heart trees to swear his vows, while Dany goes to Vaes Dothrak. Also, Marsh doesn't bring the horses so as to not "defile" the grove, while the Dothraki are forbidden to carry swords in Vaes Dothrak.

Stolen heroes and the gods of dead peoples brooded in the darkness beyond the road. Alongside the procession, slaves ran lightly through the grass with torches in their hands, and the flickering flames made the great monuments seem almost alive.

This reminds of the crypt statues seeming alive at times, and I think when Arya first sees the dragon skulls in King's Landing.

I've also been keeping track of the Starks' descriptions, especially when they are descibed as cold, hard, icy, etc. and kept track of others as well. Ned, Jon, crypt statues, and even the NW are describe like that a lot (although I've skipped some chapters after a certain point to keep up with the readings, so I haven't been able to document all of them). I was surprised to see the number of times Khal Drogo and Dothraki were described. (Of course, it could just be a coincidence and may be just because I skipped so many chapters I don't see others described as much)

Khal Drogo stood over her as she ate, his face as hard as a bronze shield.

The khal’s face did not often betray the thoughts within.

Jon in an earlier chapter - He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away

His bloodriders followed him, like three copper shadows.

Kinda sounds like Ghost being a "pale shadow" to Jon.

And here are some other random ones:

He had the copper skin and dark almond eyes of a Dothraki, but his face was hairless and he wore the spiked bronze cap of the Unsullied. He looked them over coldly. ( got, p. 32)

Dany looked at Khal Drogo. His face was hard and cruel, his eyes as cold and dark as onyx. (got, p. 34)

I'm just hoping this doesn't foreshadow some type of Jon/Dany romance scenario cuz that's just something I don't really want :(

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

I've been a bit busy and fell behind in the readings. I've been reading everything in the threads, but just haven't had much to say about the current discussions. Just wanted to add some stuff I've noticed now that I've finally caught up.

Dany in Vaes Dothrak:

"No steel was permitted within the sacred confines of Vaes Dothrak, beneath the shadow of the Mother of Mountains..."

A procession followed them out onto the godsway, the broad grassy road that ran through the heart of Vaes Dothrak, from the horse gate to the Mother of Mountains.

Jon going to say his vows in the weirwood grove:

Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. “This is a sacred place, we will not defile it.”

There is a parallel in the Daenarys V and Jon VI chapters (Chapter 45/47) where both Jon and Dany go to places considered sacred. Jon goes to a godswood with heart trees to swear his vows, while Dany goes to Vaes Dothrak. Also, Marsh doesn't bring the horses so as to not "defile" the grove, while the Dothraki are forbidden to carry swords in Vaes Dothrak.

Stolen heroes and the gods of dead peoples brooded in the darkness beyond the road. Alongside the procession, slaves ran lightly through the grass with torches in their hands, and the flickering flames made the great monuments seem almost alive.

This reminds of the crypt statues seeming alive at times, and I think when Arya first sees the dragon skulls in King's Landing.

I've also been keeping track of the Starks' descriptions, especially when they are descibed as cold, hard, icy, etc. and kept track of others as well. Ned, Jon, crypt statues, and even the NW are describe like that a lot (although I've skipped some chapters after a certain point to keep up with the readings, so I haven't been able to document all of them). I was surprised to see the number of times Khal Drogo and Dothraki were described. (Of course, it could just be a coincidence and may be just because I skipped so many chapters I don't see others described as much)

Khal Drogo stood over her as she ate, his face as hard as a bronze shield.

The khal’s face did not often betray the thoughts within.

Jon in an earlier chapter - He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away

His bloodriders followed him, like three copper shadows.

Kinda sounds like Ghost being a "pale shadow" to Jon.

And here are some other random ones:

He had the copper skin and dark almond eyes of a Dothraki, but his face was hairless and he wore the spiked bronze cap of the Unsullied. He looked them over coldly. ( got, p. 32)

Dany looked at Khal Drogo. His face was hard and cruel, his eyes as cold and dark as onyx. (got, p. 34)

I'm just hoping this doesn't foreshadow some type of Jon/Dany romance scenario cuz that's just something I don't really want :(

If this happens? DEATH TO THE KING! (Martin)

[RedtheWarrior]

I think the old crone of Vaes Dothrak got it right, or at least partially right. She saw Rhaego as the Stallion that mounts the world, and he was...sort of. His life allowed the rebirth of one of the dragons, and Drogo's life too allowed the hatching of another dragon, and Daenerys is mother to them all.

:bowdown:

That's perfect. We already know that prophecies are REALLY tricky to interpret, but this kinda covers all. :bowdown:

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

Love Feather Crystral's theory!

[DrunkSister]

Wait, Dany (Daenerys III) is one of the people who says that magic has gone away, and we are going to believe her? She is 13-14 and has no education!

Magic had died in the west when the Doom fell on Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer, and neither spell-forged steel nor stormsingers nor dragons could hold it back.

Uh...

Who owns Dany's bridal gifts?

Has anybody else noticed that Dany had gotten a ridiculous amount of valuable goods for her wedding? Weapons for the khal, everything else belongs to her?

Drogo goes raiding to get the money to pay for the ships AFAIK he does not touch her stuff. They could have sold the eggs! Tze has argued quite eloquently in a thread I can't currently remember the name of that Dany got the eggs from Illyrio to be able to pay the transport immediately after her presentation to the priestesses.

Vaes Dothrak - a timeline

• There was a prophesy of the Stallion that mounts the world. No, we do not know anything else.
  
• Vaes Dothrak was built by slaves as a city where all the khalasars will gather once the Stallion is born.
  
• It is inhabited by former khaleesies - after their khal is killed they, having been a khaleesi once, are not allowed to be ordinary women again (is a khaleesi sacred to Dothraki - yes),
  
• There are no men living in the city ordinarily, only eunuchs and women;
  
• No steel (what about iron?);
  
• Ab Urbe Condita every khaleesi was brought for inspection, and after the khals death, has joined other women in the city - what about menopause?
  
• They are waiting for the Stallion to be born.
  

Note1: A city of self governing women, riches, spices, wine, eclectic cuisine, shopping (!), lots of servants (some of whom no doubt artisans and entertainers), no men can bother them, are considered sacred... and this is presented as a horrible, terrible fate? I get why it is for Dany, but let's separate ourselves from POV for a bit.

Note2: It is Viserys who calls the women crones first, after that Dany does likewise. This is misoginic and wrong. They are wisewomen of the people. The older, the wiser. The loss of eye might even make the old woman more powerful. Again, matrilineal transfer of knowledge.

Khal Drogo who has never lost a battle has married princess of valyrian descent. Did he believe that he will sire the chosen one? I think yes.

He believed he will be the father of the chosen one, like some other young man we know... Unlike Rhaegar whose marriage to Lyanna seems to have conformed to bride-stealing, Drogo "buys" the bride in a proper gift exchage, a lot of invaluable property changes hands, Dany gets gifts to give her husband, and her husband gives her a gift, a lot of people are killed at the wedding etc. We don't know that Dothraki marry at all, only khals with their wives?

Now, what I find hard to understand is how 'holy' Dany seems to be, how everybody obeys her, and yet some khals share their wives with their blood riders.

Also, Dany says bloodriders should die with the khal, but what we actually see is that they don't. Maybe she is wrong about sharing?

[Dany is moon crackpot building blocks]

Drogo rides a red stallion, and Dany calls him Sun and stars. Dany rides a silver mare and represents moon. - this is in story symbolism, since Drogo chose the horses.

Dothraki believe that moon is god, woman wife of sun.

People of Quarth believe that a moon once went too close to the sun and cracked, dragons were born from it. Unless the trader was trying to impress a girl with stories. :)

Nisa Nisa cracked the moon with her scream.

[/crackpot building blocks]

Dany cares for the eggs:

In two instances she touched the black egg and feels the warmth. This is Drogon and she dreams of a black dragon.

After she hits Viserys, a description of how she holds the green egg close to her stomach, as she does often (and randomly as to which, I assume) and we have this:

They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strenght from the stone dragons locked inside* [...] when she felt the child move withing her.... as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood.

The baby and the egg are Rhaego and Rhaegal. *sobbing*

*elk incidents? :leaving:

Hey, remember how I said we should look for similarities in customs of First Men and Dothraki:

Dany in Vaes Dothrak

"And pray that Khal Drogo does not hear of this, or he will cut open your belly and feed you your own entrails."

-My, where did she learn that type of language? Not from Jorah's story books I hope.

Lady Dustlin:

“And Lord Wyman is not the only man who lost kin at your Red Wedding, Frey. Do you imagine Whoresbane loves you any better? If you did not hold the Greatjon, he would pull out your entrails and make you eat them, as Lady Hornwood ate her fingers.

Signs and portents IMO don't have to be common knowledge because the old gods watch and see what will work on people. Arya gets the Syrio's lessons recital when she needs it. There are numerous instances when people can hear the heart tree whispering to them, ravens and crows speak, hell, the direwoolf dead in the snow was a very heraldic message.

Furthermore, I am not at all sure that the knowledge is lost. Eddard disregards it as Old Nan's tale, NW brothers are not feeling free to vocalize it, maesters claim all is superstition... but Jon says they all know.

Frazer states that the evolution of culture goes from magic to religion to science.

Yes, but in our world magic doesn't exist, and in Asoiaf it does. It might be a sword without a hilt, but it has a blade. So, why would the culture abandon magic for religion and science? We see that it has happened, and we should look for the causes, but we must be weary of assuming they are the same as in our world.

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

[Dany is moon crackpot building blocks]

Drogo rides a red stallion, and Dany calls him Sun and stars. Dany rides a silver mare and represents moon. - this is in story symbolism, since Drogo chose the horses.

Dothraki believe that moon is god, woman wife of sun.

People of Quarth believe that a moon once went too close to the sun and cracked, dragons were born from it. Unless the trader was trying to impress a girl with stories. :)

Nisa Nisa cracked the moon with her scream.

[/crackpot building blocks]

This was my theory too!

[DrunkSister]

I think you might be onto something. I'll just toss the blocks your way and see if something can be built.

[bbstark]

Hi, just started reading this thread, I think it's great.

I just want to point out one thing:

Vaes Dothrak - a timeline

• No steel (what about iron?);
  

Maybe you already know this, but steel is just an alloy of iron and another element with a content of anywhere between 1-30% content by weight. To my knowledge weapons made of Iron are terrible because Iron is hard but brittle. Steel is softer, bendier, and more likely to return its shape upon perturbation/contact of some kind, hence the saying "hard like iron, bendy like steel".

Interestingly enough (and I think this is relevant, since the book is based on the middle ages) when we refer to the Iron age, it doesn't just refer to a widespread use of iron, but steel as well.

As such I'd say no forged weapon, of any iron content, would be allowed in Vaes Dothrak.

[DrunkSister]

The books do make the difference between steel and iron, for example - Robert is steel, Stannis is iron, Lords of Winterfell in the crypts have iron swords (not for battle, but to keep them dead), Old Nan says Others hate iron etc. There is a theory that dead Jon put in the ice cells didn't raise because they were put in iron chains...

Yes they could be talking about steel all along, but OTOH what if they are not? What if Martin is going to change something in the setting to make iron vs. steel special? Since iron has magical properties in both in our world mythology and apparently in Asoiaf I decided to use both words.

Especially because the taboo in Vaes Dothrak is a taboo and doesn't have to be reasonable at all. On the surface it looks as if 'no blood spilled and no steel' is to prevent fighting but then look what Drogo does: he kills a man with molten gold. So, theoretically there could be another loophole somewhere to be exploited.

I would not apply our definition of steel to magical and medieval setting without proper caution. We have the taboo in Dothraki, which is translated by Jorah and thought about by Dany and then told to us by the narrator in English. What if Dothraki mean something special? What if to them steel is only some special alloy used in arakhs? What if Dany has, yet again, misunderstood what she heard and saw?

This is Asoiaf, being paranoid is the only way to go.

[bbstark]

First of, I apologize, the kind of iron I was thinking of as brittle has a high percentage of Carbon content.

Pure iron is in fact not much stronger than bronze. The point of old Winterfell kings having iron swords could merely underline a difference in ages. In order to move from the Bronze age to the Iron Age, ancient people had to find a way to build a fire hot enough to bring iron to its melting point (about 1550C, vs. regular fire is 1000-1100), first to release Oxygen, because Iron ore is and Iron oxide, and make pure Iron, and second to alloy it with Carbon (and other elements) to make steel.

Now if Westeros also has these skills, walking through the crypts and seeing weapons from a 1000 years ago probably only emphasizes how old and ancient the Starks are in the North.

As far as Old Nan goes, I don't really have faith in her having much knowledge about forging of weapons ;)

Also, someone wielding an iron weapon stands no chance against someone with steel, but it's still a sharp and dangerous weapon. I don't remember anyone in present day westeros having an iron weapon, it's always steel. Maybe the wildlings would not have the skills to make steel, but I believe everywhere else, weapons are forged with steel, and the Dothraki wouldn't pause to look at what your sword is made of anyways.

Anyways, my point is, iron in the series for all practical purposes means steel.

btw. I really think that Martin knows a lot about the Iron age. It's very relevant to his work. I've been reading his blog and he has a great interest in ancient weapons and their craft.

Edited for clarity (my mind was wandering a bit)