Dragons stirring - A Heretical look at Dany

[Frey family reunion]

Not that quote, this quote :

I think her first one was of the birth of the dragons, but this was her second dream, witch applies to her current situation.

I think the second dream refers to her bonding with Drogon, whom I believe to be the reincarnation of Drogo through the ritual at the funeral pyre. This will be the dragon that she rides. She had a similar rebirth when she roder her silver mare for the first time in AGOT.

[Melifeather]

I disagree with the last three posts. Daenerys is the dragon that was "hatched".

[Sheogorath]

I disagree with the last three posts. Daenerys is the dragon that was "hatched".

Thats what I am trying to say, I think? Her first dream was the of her walking into the pyre, and the second dream is in reference to where she is at now with Drogon. This time she is the dragon that is waking.

[nanother]

An interesting parallel came up in the Heresy thread: according to one legend, the dragons were born from a moon; whereas the direwolves are... well, wolves, they have a special relationship with the Moon...

[Sheogorath]

An interesting parallel came up in the Heresy thread: according to one legend, the dragons were born from a moon; whereas the direwolves are... well, wolves, they have a special relationship with the Moon...

I have been reading. I am very surprised that there hasn't been more effort towards linking the moon with fertility and the cycle of a woman. I will try to link up some specific moon references just for fun (this will be crackpot and poorly structured):

Moon Door in the Vale : The vale is impregnable, but it has a Moon door, probably created for fertility sacrificial ritual.

Moon is wife of Sun : Dany flew to close to the sun (Drogo) and hatched dragons.(I know this is coming from two different stories) Also, eggs represent fertility. Something could be said about the eggs seeming to be infertile and then fertile again ? Wondering off topic...

Wolf/Moon : hmmm..... when i think of wolves and moons i get less of the fertility idea and i lean more towards the 'life cycle'. I defiantly see maternal bonds between the Stark children and their direwolves, though.

Moon / Tides / Drowned God

I have been drinking and I forgot what I was getting at... help me along people.

[Frey family reunion]

I have been reading. I am very surprised that there hasn't been more effort towards linking the moon with fertility and the cycle of a woman. I will try to link up some specific moon references just for fun (this will be crackpot and poorly structured):

Moon Door in the Vale : The vale is impregnable, but it has a Moon door, probably created for fertility sacrificial ritual.

I think the First Men made human sacrifices in front of a weirwood in their Godswood. Since the Eyrie couldn't grow a Godswood, the moon door was built as a substitute, surrounding it with Weirwood pillars. Instead of slashing someone's throat in front of the tree they chucked them out the door. Now whether this was done for fertility or for other type of rituals, I have no idea.

[Sheogorath]

I think the First Men made human sacrifices in front of a weirwood in their Godswood. Since the Eyrie couldn't grow a Godswood, the moon door was built as a substitute, surrounding it with Weirwood pillars. Instead of slashing someone's throat in front of the tree they chucked them out the door. Now whether this was done for fertility or for other type of rituals, I have no idea.

Or we could all be silly and it could be called moon door because it is high in the sky lol

[Snark_Tamer]

I love this moon connection between dragons and wolves, primarily because I don't think Dany and Jon will be rivals but allies.

I'd like to add to this discussion the Frogmen... Jojen's greendream of Bran on a wolf with wings... might a wolf with wings BE a dragon? His visions are all a little murky. (and in fact, being Bran, he might not be ON it, but BE it--as a warg)

And add to that that Jon is probably NOT just ice, but FIRE (son of Rhaegar) and Ice (Lyanna)--why NOT one Stark, one Targarian and one who is BOTH? (to save the entirety of Westeros from itself)

[nanother]

I have been reading. I am very surprised that there hasn't been more effort towards linking the moon with fertility and the cycle of a woman. I will try to link up some specific moon references just for fun (this will be crackpot and poorly structured):

...

Wolf/Moon : hmmm..... when i think of wolves and moons i get less of the fertility idea and i lean more towards the 'life cycle'. I defiantly see maternal bonds between the Stark children and their direwolves, though.

Actually, there doesn't seem to be that much about the Moon in relation to fertility in the books. There are the two examples you used (the Dothraki beliefs and the moon-egg), both from the East. In Westeros, all we have is the moon tea - or am I forgetting something? :unsure:

As for the wolves, it's surprisingly hard to find actual myths connecting them directly to the moon. It's mostly just the notion that they supposedly howl at the moon. There's a brand of myths involving a "wolf mother", that is a she-wolf nurturing heroes-to-be, though.

As for the Moon/Eyrie connection, I wonder if it's something that came with the Arryns or they adopted it from the First Men.

I think the First Men made human sacrifices in front of a weirwood in their Godswood. Since the Eyrie couldn't grow a Godswood, the moon door was built as a substitute, surrounding it with Weirwood pillars. Instead of slashing someone's throat in front of the tree they chucked them out the door. Now whether this was done for fertility or for other type of rituals, I have no idea.

Interesting idea. It could have happened in a transitional period, with the moon from the original First Men pantheon still being worshipped. Possibly, the weirwood worship never really took over in the Vale.

By the way, do we know who build the Eyrie? Was it the First Men, or the Arryns? Not sure if it's ever made clear in the books.

[Sheogorath]

They call menstruation moon blood.

[DrunkSister]

Daenerys bleeding might just signify sexual maturity, whether it is mere 'flowering' or childbirth.

In the first dream she is being hurt by Viserys who is then replaced by a dragon very similar to one Dany would later bond with. Viserys is her brother and authority figure with her life in his hands. If he wants to hurt her, sell her, kill her, he can.

This is where he is replaced by a dragon, a part of Dany's nature and she comes face to face with him (dragons are both genders, right?). Maybe part of this is that she is realizing that soon he will have no power over her, she will belong to another, for better or for worse.

Coming face to face with the dragon she is afraid and she wakes.

In the second dream she comes face to face with the dragon immediately and is burned/baptized. She has woken the dragon in herself.

I am not sure these are 'prophetic' dreams as much as 'psychological dreams' that inform Dany of her nature. In various stages of my life that were I had to choose between different paths I would dream of a man, my age, with my looks and who would kiss me in brotherly way and hold me through the dream. When I woke up usually I felt better about my circumstances. Similarly, I would say that being a dragon is part of Dany's nature and this part is waking along with her maturity, girl must die for the woman to be born.

[Frey family reunion]

Daenerys bleeding might just signify sexual maturity, whether it is mere 'flowering' or childbirth.

In the first dream she is being hurt by Viserys who is then replaced by a dragon very similar to one Dany would later bond with. Viserys is her brother and authority figure with her life in his hands. If he wants to hurt her, sell her, kill her, he can.

This is where he is replaced by a dragon, a part of Dany's nature and she comes face to face with him (dragons are both genders, right?). Maybe part of this is that she is realizing that soon he will have no power over her, she will belong to another, for better or for worse.

Coming face to face with the dragon she is afraid and she wakes.

In the second dream she comes face to face with the dragon immediately and is burned/baptized. She has woken the dragon in herself.

I am not sure these are 'prophetic' dreams as much as 'psychological dreams' that inform Dany of her nature. In various stages of my life that were I had to choose between different paths I would dream of a man, my age, with my looks and who would kiss me in brotherly way and hold me through the dream. When I woke up usually I felt better about my circumstances. Similarly, I would say that being a dragon is part of Dany's nature and this part is waking along with her maturity, girl must die for the woman to be born.

Is there any reasons that these dreams can't be both "psychological" and "prophetic" and physiological? Her awakening the dragon could be a combination of emotional self-confidence, and physical maturation, which opens her up to certain abilities such as an ability for prophetic dreams.

[nanother]

I think, just like Jon's crypt dreams, these dragon dreams have 3 main aspect that are not entirely independent either: as pointed out, there's a great deal of foreshadowing and psychological development, but what interests me the most (and is the most obscure, that' probably why everyone's ignoring it) is their connection to the awakening magic, and those who might be shaping it.

In the North, we have the singers, Old Gods, Bloodraven, although their intentions and the extent of their power is unclear, and the enigmatic Others whose connection with the singers is yet to be explored. Of the Fire side, we know even less: Asshai, fires, shadows, strange inhuman Red Priests; Valyria, dragons, glass candles; prophecies shared between both; and what's Quaithe up to? There's just no way all these magical workings in the background don't play a part in Dany's dreams and the unfolding events.

[DrunkSister]

@ Frey family reunion

I see no reason that Dany couldn't have prophetic dreams, but neither do I see enough proof to think that these dreams are prophetic. If further in the reread she shows prophetic abilities then these dreams might be prophetic (I can't remember if she does).

I also don't see any signs of emotional self-confidence, she is very frightened in the first dream and before the second she is at the point where she is seriously thinking of offing herself. Then she accepts the fire, is reborn and feels that the eggs might be alive.

It actually reminds me of Bran's 'fly or die' choice and of Jon giving up being Eddard's son only to get Ghost.

If she had run away from the dragon the eggs stay dead? She awoke them?

[Melifeather]

@ Frey family reunion

I see no reason that Dany couldn't have prophetic dreams, but neither do I see enough proof to think that these dreams are prophetic. If further in the reread she shows prophetic abilities then these dreams might be prophetic (I can't remember if she does).

I also don't see any signs of emotional self-confidence, she is very frightened in the first dream and before the second she is at the point where she is seriously thinking of offing herself. Then she accepts the fire, is reborn and feels that the eggs might be alive.

It actually reminds me of Bran's 'fly or die' choice and of Jon giving up being Eddard's son only to get Ghost.

If she had run away from the dragon the eggs stay dead? She awoke them?

It's interesting to think that Daenerys very nature woke the dragon eggs. My understanding was that the eggs were hatched using fire magic with blood sacrifice, but that's what Aegon tried to do at Summerhall, wasn't it? Fire magic with blood sacrifice? And it didn't work. So, maybe you are onto something.

[JLE]

how do you mean "without blood sacrifice" when Mirri Maaz Duur was burned *alive* on the fire that woke the dragons (and through which Dany was able to last unharmed)?

[DrunkSister]

It's interesting to think that Daenerys very nature woke the dragon eggs. My understanding was that the eggs were hatched using fire magic with blood sacrifice, but that's what Aegon tried to do at Summerhall, wasn't it? Fire magic with blood sacrifice? And it didn't work. So, maybe you are onto something.

I don't know. I meant it in a 'test of character' kind of way but I have no idea who the tester is. With Bran and Jon we do: old gods.

We don't really know what went wrong at Summerhall, or what went right with Danny's pyre-magic, do we?

But Targaryens used to put eggs into cradles, for bonding purposes I presume, and we see Dany 'caring for' eggs and dreaming of a dragon. If there is a supernatural force at work, bringing magic back, then I would say the egg is awake from the moment Dany feels so.

In later books Dany has this very peculiar relationship with her dragon side, she wants to be a mother to her people, she is afraid that she is a monster etc. I think it is important that the dragon she meets first appears in the place of her brother and in the second dream she is faced with him/her. She does not identify herself with the dragon in her dream (unlike wargs who dream they are the animal), but while awake she says that she is the blood of dragons. I think this duality of acceptance and repulsion is something to look after in the reread.

I would like to correct what I have said earlier: Dany will have that dream where she is fighting Others at Trident which might be considered vaguely prophetic. However, I don't want to go into that now because it hasn't happened yet.

ETA: Egg's brother (?) from The Hedge Knight had some kind of prophetic dreams, can anybody check if they have more detail to them than what we see with Dany?

[nanother]

I agree about the mostly non-prophetic nature of her dreams. I think they do foreshadow the hatching of the dragons as a literary device, but in-story they're result from real-time workings of Dany's psyche and magic, which, of course, will eventually lead to hatching the dragons. But it I see it more as a promise or guidance, than prophecy.

Speaking of prophecies, the most recent Dany chapter has he prophecy about the 'stallion who mounts the world'

The oldest of the crones, a bent and shriveled stick of a woman with a single black eye, raised her arms on high. “Khalakka dothrae!” she shrieked. The prince is riding!

Bells rang, a sudden clangor of bronze birds. A deep-throated warhorn sounded its long low note. The old women began to chant. Underneath their painted leather vests, their withered dugs swayed back and forth, shiny with oil and sweat. The eunuchs who served them threw bundles of dried grasses into a great bronze brazier, and clouds of fragrant smoke rose up toward the moon and the stars. The Dothraki believed the stars were horses made of fire, a great herd that galloped across the sky by night.

As the smoke ascended, the chanting died away and the ancient crone closed her single eye, the better to peer into the future. The silence that fell was complete. Dany could hear the distant call of night birds, the hiss and crackle of the torches, the gentle lapping of water from the lake. The Dothraki stared at her with eyes of night, waiting.

Khal Drogo laid his hand on Dany’s arm. She could feel the tension in his fingers. Even a khal as mighty as Drogo could know fear when the dosh khaleen peered into smoke of the future. At her back, her handmaids fluttered anxiously.

Finally the crone opened her eye and lifted her arms. “I have seen his face, and heard the thunder of his hooves,” she proclaimed in a thin, wavery voice.

“The thunder of his hooves!” the others chorused.

“As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name.” The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. “The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world.”

“The stallion who mounts the world!” the onlookers cried in echo, until the night rang to the sound of their voices.

The one-eyed crone peered at Dany. “What shall he be called, the stallion who mounts the world?”

She stood to answer. “He shall be called Rhaego,” she said, using the words that Jhiqui had taught her. Her hands touched the swell beneath her breasts protectively as a roar went up from the Dothraki. “Rhaego,” they screamed. “Rhaego, Rhaego, Rhaego!”

...

“What does it mean?” she asked. “What is this stallion? Everyone was shouting it at me, but I don’t understand.”

“The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd.”

“Oh,” Dany said in a small voice. Her hand smoothed her robe down over the swell of her stomach. “I named him Rhaego.”

edit: fixed the quote, it had a crucial part missing

[DrunkSister]

Khal Drogo laid his hand on Dany’s arm. She could feel the tension in his fingers. Even a khal as mighty as Drogo could know fear when the dosh khaleen peered into smoke of the future.

Is Dany thinking that the woman is looking in the smoke (I mean, is the narrator is describing what Dany thinks or simply narrating)? Could dosh khaleen be looking in the fire instead?

[nanother]

I think Martin is playing around with the word 'smoke'. I believe it's the herbs thrown onto the brazier, and also a metaphor for the uncertainty of the future (akin to shadws in greenseer terminology). Note that the crone who does the actual 'seeing' closes her eyes.

ETA: grrr, I see I somehow missed that bit from the quote - will fix it now