assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Yeah, how weak and cowardly to save his people from a sure defeat that would have brought death and desolation for the whole north. It takes a real badass to lead his people into certain doom.My position on that is that it wasn't as hopeless as he thought and he gave up too easily. For Christ's sake, a Dornish princess in her 80s was able to successfully stand up to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barristan the G.O.A.T Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Rodrik Stark who won Bear Island in a wrestling match. This guy sounds fucking awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ghost Beyond the Wall Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Cregan Stark is interesting for his swordsmanship and he seems really respectable.. Also I'd say rodrik stark who wrestled the ironborn out of bear island.. Is he the one who served with the second sons? And lastly Brandon ice eyes.. Why'd they call him that? Was he a renowned warrior.. The stark lineage really fascinates me cuz they are my favorite house and all of the kings of winter sound so awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persepolis Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 My position on that is that it wasn't as hopeless as he thought and he gave up too easily. For Christ's sake, a Dornish princess in her 80s was able to successfully stand up to them.Correct me if im wrong, but i think it has been stated in the books, that the dornish were only able to withstand Aegon because of the characteristics of their terrain which allowed them to make use of guerilla tactics. All the other regions have been conquered quite easily, it was only the desert that saved the dornish. Whereas the north shows an astounding lack of deserts. Just sayin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Correct me if im wrong, but i think it has been stated in the books, that the dornish were only able to withstand Aegon because of the characteristics of their terrain which allowed them to make use of guerilla tactics. All the other regions have been conquered quite easily, it was only the desert that saved the dornish. Whereas the north shows an astounding lack of deserts. Just sayin...And the North is pretty much Dorne with the opposite climate. Sparsely populated, often brutal climate, unable to be easily held by an outsider. Meaning, there's no reason to think guerilla tactics and such couldn't have been successful there. Just sayin' ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persepolis Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 And the North is pretty much Dorne with the opposite climate. Sparsely populated, often brutal climate, unable to be easily held by an outsider. Meaning, there's no reason to think guerilla tactics and such couldn't have been successful there. Just sayin' ...With the little difference that you can burn down the north if you have 3 big ass dragons. Good luck trying to burn down a desert with it's rocky hideouts. The whole reason why the dornish succeeded is that Aegon's dragons had been rendered completely useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood of the Flagon Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I want to know more about Brandon Ice Eyes. Sounds kind of like a northern Tywin Lannister and the stories Davos hears at the wolf den just made me want to learn more. I am also curios about the Wandering Wolf who fought with the second sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattah84 Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 King Rickard Stark......he probably married a Crannogwoman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 With the little difference that you can burn down the north if you have 3 big ass dragons. Good luck trying to burn down a desert with it's rocky hideouts. The whole reason why the dornish succeeded is that Aegon's dragons had been rendered completely useless.And you don't think a freezing climate would also have rendered the dragons useless, especially given that they're grounded during a basic thunderstorm? Do you sincerely think they'd be completely unaffected in a freezing climate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Walrus Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 And you don't think a freezing climate would also have rendered the dragons useless, especially given that they're grounded during a basic thunderstorm? Do you sincerely think they'd be completely unaffected in a freezing climate?Wasn't it just a rainstorm? I need to read Dance again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Wasn't it just a rainstorm? I need to read Dance again...Whatever it was, they were grounded because of rain. Put them in a snowstorm or full-on blizzard and I doubt they'd be of much use.Put it this way: There's a reason Aegon went south instead of north and only faced the northerners when he absolutely had to ... in the Riverlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Meeraculous Third Reed Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I'm going to cheat and say two- Beron and Edwyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persepolis Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Whatever it was, they were grounded because of rain. Put them in a snowstorm or full-on blizzard and I doubt they'd be of much use.Put it this way: There's a reason Aegon went south instead of north and only faced the northerners when he absolutely had to ... in the Riverlands.Ok, you win. I still think Torrhen's one of the greatest Starks simply because of the fact that he chose to subordinate himself to prevent unnecessary bloodshed. He forfeited his throne for the greater good. You call it a weakness, i call it a sign of a truly good leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I too have pondered a lot on Torhenn Stark, but I view him in the opposite way to the original poster. I view him as a sad failure. Forever to be known as the King who Knelt.As opposed to the Yellow Toad of Dorne, who dared the Targaryens to bring their lizards if they had the courage. A 70 year old woman had more courage in the face of death than the King of the ancient North.In any case, I sincerely hope there is more to Torhenn's decision than just choosing the pacifist option. I retain hope that a prophecy played a role in his decision. But it seems likely to be a unfulfilled hope.I guess to answer the original question, more information on any of the Pre-Targaryen Stark Kings would be most welcome.Couldnt disagree more. Firstly 30000 men wouldnt have followed Torrhen South if he was weak, cowardly or a failure. Hes known as the King Who Knelt, but people dont spit when they say this. There is more to this situation then what we know of at the moment IMO. Nobody in the North thinks its a weakness that they knelt to the DragonsIn any case once hed marched south his position was untenable after the Field of Fire. He was too far South to retreat, and his host would have been broken up had he tried it. Dorne to me seems like one of the most, if not the most poor regions. Defying the Targs brought nothing but bloodshed and weakness. Torrhen saved the North this. Now had he stayed North perhaps he could have defied the Targs, but as he had marched South he had no other way out but to kneel. You dont have to die to be brave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Afaik, DwD says the Dragons did not like the rain. That's all. It doesn't say they couldn't operate or fly in it, just that they weren't that keen (and these are very young, small, untrained dragons too).We know Dragons did appear near the wall in the reigns of the Targaryen kings, so they can operate in the north.Providing you go north with a decent size army to accompany the dragons, to protect them when they need to sleep, or, if, indeed, they dislike bad snow storms, you'd still have a massive advantage that would too great for anyone to surmount. They would render Moat Cailin useless for example, and so on. I have no idea why Dorne was not invaded and subjugated by Dragon possessing Targ kings, but it would have been much easier then than afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Meeraculous Third Reed Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Ok, you win. I still think Torrhen's one of the greatest Starks simply because of the fact that he chose to subordinate himself to prevent unnecessary bloodshed. He forfeited his throne for the greater good. You call it a weakness, i call it a sign of a truly good leader.Marching south of Moat Cailin was not a sign of a good leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Marching south of Moat Cailin was not a sign of a good leader.Makes no difference if the enemy has airpower (like Aegon did), as that nullifies the value of the moat as a line of defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Marching south of Moat Cailin was not a sign of a good leader.Was he not trying to link up with his fellow Kings? Sounds like a fair plan to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Meeraculous Third Reed Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Makes no difference if the enemy has airpower (like Aegon did), as that nullifies the value of the moat as a line of defence.It doesn't nullify putting your fighting force all in one place within a narrow stretch of land when Dorne had done the exact opposite and stayed independent.Perhaps I should have said the Neck. Either way, stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Brandon Ice Eyes, what he did to retake White Harbor and what he did to the slavers is awesome, gutsy and strong. Let justice be served. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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