Is it acknowledged that House Lannister Destroyed House Stark?

[Frey Pie]

But the thread is about Lannister defeating Stark, not Lannister being defeated by the Tyrells, Martells, Varys, and their own family.

And who did more to defeat the Starks? Roose Bolton, LF, or Tywin Lannister?

[Penguin king]

If I had the choice of being ruled by Roose Bolton and his maniac bastard heir, or a young and controllable Stark child I know who i'd choose.

Unfortunately for the northen lords I don't think Rickon will be all that controllable.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

Only the old old house would command a higher loyalty-Lannister, Stark, Arryn and Martell. Tully and Tyrell are relative upstarts in comparison and dont imo have as high a contol over their bannermen. What is special is that men continue to die for a House that is for all intents completely wiped out and at odds with the greatest power in the realm. This does completely show a higher loyalty then anyother show of loyalty to a House.

Each great house has its rival. Tywin destroyed his recently, leaving Lannister as the undisputed lord. Not a bad move at all, but a great part of the reason why he didnt suffer from insubordination, although it should be noted that House Westerling did desert him. Spicer didnt, Westerling did.

Westerwlings were forced to join him because their lands were captured and they kept corespondence with Tywin, but yes they betrayed the Lannisters. Generally my point was that the loyalty the Starks have while indeed impresive is also commanded by the Lannisters and if they are on the brink of destruction, their bannerman will do their best to protect the last Lannister.

[Charerg]

Btw, keep in mind that Jaime's host at Riverrun numbers 15k after he has already fought two large battles against the Riverlords. I'd say Edmure probably marshalled something like 20 000 men before the walls of Riverrun, even without the Freys or the Mallisters (the Riverlands are fertile and populous, after all). So, I'd say Jaime's host was something like 18 000 strong when he left Casterly Rock. After the Battle of the Camps, maybe 4000 remain of the original host, and would largely join Ser Stafford's host.

With Tywin having 20 000 men, and Stafford raising maybe 10 000 new levies, that would bring the total strength of the three Lannister hosts to 48 000, just a hair under 50 000.

This must more or less be the maximum number of men the Westerlands can raise, and with something like 30 000 men dead (or deserted), the military might of the Westerlands is in a pretty bad shape.

[Penguin king]

And who did more to defeat the Starks? Roose Bolton, LF, or Tywin Lannister?

If Tywin hadn't offered amnesty and power to the Boltons and the Freys do you think the Red Wedding would have ever happened?

[Minstral]

Westerwlings were forced to join him because their lands were captured and they kept corespondence with Tywin, but yes they betrayed the Lannisters. Generally my point was that the loyalty the Starks have while indeed impresive is also commanded by the Lannisters and if they are on the brink of destruction, their bannerman will do their best to protect the last Lannister.

Just like the time the Reynes and Tarbrecks were so loyal to the Lannisters during the Blackfyre rebellions and the time they rebelled against them when Tytos reigned. These lords are not loyal to Tywin out of love for the Lannnisters, but because they do alright being loyal when compared to the results of showing defiance. Even that lord on Fair isle tried to buck under Tywin's rule and it was made clear that if the defiance continued his line would be extinguished.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Westerwlings were forced to join him because their lands were captured and they kept corespondence with Tywin, but yes they betrayed the Lannisters. Generally my point was that the loyalty the Starks have while indeed impresive is also commanded by the Lannisters and if they are on the brink of destruction, their bannerman will do their best to protect the last Lannister.

No.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

No.

Proof?

[ebevan91]

And who did more to defeat the Starks? Roose Bolton, LF, or Tywin Lannister?

Well, Jaime crippled Bran, Joffrey had Ned executed, Tywin probably organized the RW and arranged the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa. Also Arya is on the run because of the Lannisters.

[Corvo Attano]

You're forgetting Benjen. He may have taken the black, but he's still a Stark, and he could well be alive, and the Lannisters had no involvment with his fate.

Plus, It was the Ironborn who fake-killed Bran & Rickon, and the everybody except Roose, Ramsay, Jaime, Brienne, Theon and maybe Kevan and Walder Frey think Jeyne is Arya.

The Lannisters are only responsible (directly or indirectly) for the deaths of Ned, Cat and Robb.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Proof?

I have no proof as there has never been a time, IIRC, that House Lannister has been at the brink of extinction. But from what I've read in the books, the Lannisters barely have any TRULY loyal bannermen. Every time that the Lanisters have faced troubles many of their bannermen have either revolted or tried to destroy them themselves. Can you show me a House in the Westerlands that is as loyal to the Lannisters as, say the Umbers are to the Starks?

[Minstral]

Proof?

Reyne, Tarbreck, and Farman all tried to disobey Tywin, while the first two had rebelled against their overlords before. When Tytos ruled there was rebellion and his vassals would not repay debts they owed the Lannisters, and he was openly mocked by those that served him.

[Frey Pie]

If Tywin hadn't offered amnesty and power to the Boltons and the Freys do you think the Red Wedding would have ever happened?

Well, Jaime crippled Bran, Joffrey had Ned executed, Tywin probably organized the RW and arranged the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa. Also Arya is on the run because of the Lannisters.

LF orchestrated the war from the off. He brought Ned south, and betrayed Neds trust. Without his help Cersei wouldnt have taken Ned and everything would have been different. LF also stopped the Arryns riding out for Robb Stark-about 20000 or so swords kept in their sheaths. LF also orchestrated the Tyrell alliance, and the BW victory usinf Renlys ghost, which had a huge effect on Robb Starks chances of winning. Lastly he have them the means to "control" the North by giving them "Arya". Without LFs involvement none of this would have befallen, so i really do think he had a far larger say in the Starks downfall

Roose purposely lost thousands of loyal stark soldiers. His heir razed WF and "killed" two heirs. Roose murdered Robb personally.

I think these two characters definately did more harm then the Lannisters

[Penguin king]

I have no proof as there has never been a time, IIRC, that House Lannister has been at the brink of extinction. But from what I've read in the books, the Lannisters barely have any TRULY loyal bannermen. Every time that the Lanisters have faced troubles many of their bannermen have either revolted or tried to destroy them themselves. Can you show me a House in the Westerlands that is as loyal to the Lannisters as, say the Umbers are to the Starks?

As far as I'm aware and excluding Joffrey's subjects as he was officially a Baratheon.

Houses that are known to have revolted against the Lannisters:

House Reyne

House Tarbeck

Houses that are known to have rebelled against the Starks:

House Bolton

House Greystark

House Karstark

House Frey

If I'm missing any feel free to add them.

Edit: just looked up house Farman. Seems like they were disgruntled, but an envoy from Tywin was all it took to keep them in line.

[Penguin king]

Roose purposely lost thousands of loyal stark soldiers. His heir razed WF and "killed" two heirs. Roose murdered Robb personally.

I think these two characters definately did more harm then the Lannisters

Would Roose have done any of that if Tywin hadn't bribed him with Winterfell and a full Pardon?

[Frey Pie]

As far as I'm aware and excluding Joffrey's subjects as he was officially a Baratheon.

Houses that are known to have revolted against the Lannisters:

House Reyne

House Tarbeck

Houses that are known to have rebelled against the Starks:

House Bolton

House Greystark

House Karstark

House Frey

If I'm missing any feel free to add them.

Edit: just looked up house Farman. Seems like they were disgruntled, but an envoy from Tywin was all it took to keep them in line.

House Westerling

House Frey is not an ancestral Stark bannerman. If were going by this then all the houses againt Joffrey, who has demonstrated hes a Lannister/Baratheon, are all rebels against House Lannister also

[Frey Pie]

Would Roose have done any of that if Tywin hadn't bribed him with Winterfell and a full Pardon?

Yup. He was already wasting Robbs infantry purposely, and his son was laying waste to the North. Roose used Tywin as much as Tywin used Roose. Tywin used him to get rid of Robb. Roose used Tywin to get up the ladder. The whole Jaime in HH with Roose scene is kind of proof of this

In addition as far back as the battle of the GF Rooses loyalty is suspect, which is clear to anyone who studies his role in GOT. This has been backed up by Ran

[The Frosted King]

House Lannister won the first round.

Not decisively, since they've lost around 25k men, and the end result of their fighting of the wolves is a Lannister regime entirely dependent on the continued support of the Tyrells.

But the Starks lost around 15k men, and they're likely unable to raise another host comparable to the quality of the original one that marched under Robb.

So both sides ravaged the other, with the Lannisters "winning" by a slim definition.

The only real significant win that the lions can claim, is that they still hold Casterly Rock and the West.

But for everything else, they've been defeated as a military power, they lack clear leadership and the infighting between the potential leaders promises to hasten the rate of their spiral.

And they're the most hated house on the greater continent by far.

The Lannister "victory" is the definition of pyrrhic.

[Lord Damian]

Westerwlings were forced to join him because their lands were captured and they kept corespondence with Tywin, but yes they betrayed the Lannisters. Generally my point was that the loyalty the Starks have while indeed impresive is also commanded by the Lannisters and if they are on the brink of destruction, their bannerman will do their best to protect the last Lannister.

I am not so sure about this. Tywin's cruelty did win him alliegence throgh fear but undoubtably distain in their hearts. murdering babies and sanctioning rapes of women is dishonerable. The Mountain did not help Tywin's rep either. If given a choice of an "honorable" and just overlord, many if not all will abandon them. The North has to have hostages held against them otherwise they would pretty much all flay the Boltons.

[Pod The Impaler]

Oh, the Starks are not done yet, not by a long shot.