Is it acknowledged that House Lannister Destroyed House Stark?

[Penguin king]

House Westerling

There's a high chance that House Westerling defected under Tywin's orders so that Robb would be tempted to break his marriage pact with the Freys. Even if that's not the case, they were certainly quick to rejoin with the Lannisters

House Frey is not an ancestral Stark bannerman. If were going by this then all the houses againt Joffrey, who has demonstrated hes a Lannister/Baratheon, are all rebels against House Lannister also

Joffrey was house Baratheon, but even if you count him as a Lannister, none of the Vassels who rose up against him were ever sworn to house Lannister, so how can you say they rebelled against them?

The Freys on the other hand, swore an oath to recognise Robb Stark as king in the North. An oath we can all admit they failed to keep.

Yup. He was already wasting Robbs infantry purposely, and his son was laying waste to the North. Roose used Tywin as much as Tywin used Roose. Tywin used him to get rid of Robb. Roose used Tywin to get up the ladder. The whole Jaime in HH with Roose scene is kind of proof of this

In addition as far back as the battle of the GF Rooses loyalty is suspect, which is clear to anyone who studies his role in GOT. This has been backed up by Ran

Without Lannister support Roose would have been hunted down as a traitor Red wedding or not. Do you really think that Roose would be stupid enough to kill his own leige lord without backing from a greater power? He'd have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

[JLE]

More to the point... What's left of House Bolton when Roose dies? People who might have been loyal to Roose who can play politics, will never be loyal to Ramsay because his misdeeds are too well known now. Hother Umber's men are not trusted (and in any case are the old men of the Umber dynasty - Mors has the younger men, time is on his side: and in any case if the Greatjon either escapes or dies, Hother will join his brother on the spot), Manderly is already playing traitor and Roose knows it but can't prove it, the Glovers and Tallharts are not completely gone yet (and now that Roose Bolton's defection to support Lannister is known, the Glovers are smart enough to work out that Roose deliberately betrayed them by sending them to Duskendale).

Bolton's only remaining northern ally, Arnolf and his progeny of Karstark, are in captivity. Alys is a loyalist who has just married Sigorn Thenn, and will be the next inheritor if Harrion dies... BUT, Harrion is still alive. And in captivity. And his captivity is entirely thanks to Roose Bolton, who sent him to Duskendale. And if released or escaped, he may be smart enough to work out that BOTH of his episodes in captivity have come about as a result of following Bolton's orders (since he was captured in Bolton's first battle.) On the other hand, Robb executed his father... but the execution was for the crime of murdering prisoners. As a prisoner himself, Harrion may have developed his own opinions on the subject of it being wrong to murder prisoners. So, will he come to the conclusion that Robb was right? If so, and he gets freed, he may well return to becoming a Stark loyalist.

It'll be impressive if the entire north can end up uniting behind the Starks even with the Starks in as dire straits as they are. Never mind uniting behind the name with Rickon being found, or Jon finding a way to be released from his vows and legitimised in Robb's will (if that indeed is what is happening) - they look to be uniting behind the name of Stark, and against the Boltons, even WITHOUT a Stark present. Sometimes the name is more important than the man.

Lannister still has some decent people left. If you discount Lancel who's turned perma-pilgrim, there's still Daven (a.k.a. "Kevan Lite", a decent man of reasonable ability who has the misfortune to be following a bad cause) and Kevan's other surviving son Martyn... And of course, Jaime and Cersei are not dead yet, and Jaime still has some abilities to turn a situation round, although Cersei looks hellbent on self-destruction. And there's always Tyrion, who would possibly survive a universal catastrophe...

[Frey Pie]

There's a high chance that House Westerling defected under Tywin's orders so that Robb would be tempted to break his marriage pact with the Freys. Even if that's not the case, they were certainly quick to rejoin with the Lannisters

Joffrey was house Baratheon, but even if you count him as a Lannister, none of the Vassels who rose up against him were ever sworn to house Lannister, so how can you say they rebelled against them?

The Freys on the other hand,

Without Lannister support Roose would have been hunted down as a traitor Red wedding or not. Do you really think that Roose would be stupid enough to kill his own leige lord without backing from a greater power? He'd have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

swore an oath to recognise Robb Stark as king in the North. An oath we can all admit they failed to keep.

The Spicers are the ones who betrayed Robb, and were rewarded for it. The Westerlings died and bled with Robb. Yes they went back to the Kings peace

No they rebelled against the King who is a Lannister through and through. Joffrey uses both houses in his banners, which is mentioned in the books as odd and not normal. Freys were Starks bannermen for a few months. I would argue they are Tully bannermen, not straight out Stark bannermen

Roose was already on the way to betraying Robb straight from the off. Yes his talks with Tywin confirmed his decision. Would Tywin have been able to put Robb down without Roose? Fact remains Roose is the man, and Bolton is the House, who ruined Stark, along with LF

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

I am not so sure about this. Tywin's cruelty did win him alliegence throgh fear but undoubtably distain in their hearts. murdering babies and sanctioning rapes of women is dishonerable. The Mountain did not help Tywin's rep either. If given a choice of an "honorable" and just overlord, many if not all will abandon them. The North has to have hostages held against them otherwise they would pretty much all flay the Boltons.

Yeah he made the lords of the West the most powerful in Westeros, gave them prosperity and plenty, safety and respect of the entire realm - i'm sure they hate Tywin. While Tytos was a lord the Lannisters were weak and the lords tried to use that - that does not mean they do not support them, before Rob proved he is strong the Gretjon tried to force himself, Manderly tried to get a financial benefit - that does not mean they are not loyal to the Stark or will not protect Rob if needs be. The only houses that actively hated the Lannisters (the Boltons of the West) were destroyed. When Jaime travels with the Strong Boar, with Adam Marbrand there is nothing to suggest that they plan even the smallest treason despite the fact the Lannisters are weak at the moment - on the contrary in their worst hour when Rob seemed to be winning they stuck with the Lannisters.

On the other hand the lords who support the Starks do not do it from the sheer love - there is that to be sure but they have little choice - the alternative is Roose who is responcible for the death of their brothers and sons and whom they suspect will act against them.

I will welcome any proof that the Lannisters are not respected and even loved by their vassals, who served them for 6000 years and prospered under their rule.

[Frey Pie]

Yeah he made the lords of the West the most powerful in Westeros, gave them prosperity and plenty, safety and respect of the entire realm - i'm sure they hate Tywin. While Tytos was a lord the Lannisters were weak and the lords tried to use that - that does not mean they do not support them, before Rob proved he is strong the Gretjon tried to force himself, Manderly tried to get a financial benefit - that does not mean they are not loyal to the Stark or will not protect Rob if needs be. The only houses that actively hated the Lannisters (the Boltons of the West) were destroyed. When Jaime travels with the Strong Boar, with Adam Marbrand there is nothing to suggest that they plan even the smallest treason despite the fact the Lannisters are weak at the moment - on the contrary in their worst hour when Rob seemed to be winning they stuck with the Lannisters.

On the other hand the lords who support the Starks do not do it from the sheer love - there is that to be sure but they have little choice - the alternative is Roose who is responcible for the death of their brothers and sons and whom they suspect will act against them.

I will welcome any proof that the Lannisters are not respected and even loved by their vassals, who served them for 6000 years and prospered under their rule.

To me the Lannister vassals always seem far less powerful in comparison to their liege, then in any other region. The Riverlands, Reach, Stormlands, Dorne, Vale and North all have very powerful secondary houses. Do the Braxs or Leffords compare with Manderly, Royce, Frey, Redwyne, Hightower? Its my opinion that the equivalents of these houses were the Reynes and Tarbecks. Tywin destroyed these, taking their power and making it Lannister. So i dont see how they flourished under his reign. Lannisters own not only CR, but also Lannisport personally, giving them a huge monopoly on power compared to any of their bannermen.

[The Great Walrus]

While the Lannisters sent house Stark to rock bottom, the wolves will surely return and reap their vengeance...

[Lion of Judah]

The Lannister's will no doubt make such a claim, but we know better.

[the trees have eyes]

House Lannister is Tywin - the rest are simply Lannisters. Tywin himself was attacked by the Starks first when they abducted his son and secondly when they attacked Jaime - before that point Tywin has done nothing against the Starks. What Jaime and Cersei did they did as free agents or a queen, not as Lannisters.

Have to disagree with all of that. First the Starks were attacked twice by the Lannisters (the attempts on Bran's life by Jaime and the assassin sent by Joffrey before Catelyn arrested Tyrion.

Second if House Lannister is Tywin and the acts of Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion somehow don't count then is House Stark not Eddard and the acts of Catelyn don't count either? By your reasoning Tywin would have no reason or justification for acting.

Of course those acts do count as Rhaegar (not House Targaryen)'s kidnapping of Lyanna Stark and Brandon (not House Stark)'s challenge to Rhaegar would tend to suggest.

Third no one attacked Jaime. Jaime waylaid Ned in the street. Jaime had 20 men, Ned 4. Jaime intended to kill Ned, only refraining because of Ned's bluff that Catelyn might kill Tyrion in retaliation.

The concept of family is very strong in ASOIAF, whether the notion of blood relation or loyalty to one's House. I find it strange you would discount that and assume that Cersei or Jaime could act as free agents without any consequence to the Lannisters as a House.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

Have to disagree with all of that. First the Starks were attacked twice by the Lannisters (the attempts on Bran's life by Jaime and the assassin sent by Joffrey before Catelyn arrested Tyrion.

Second if House Lannister is Tywin and the acts of Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion somehow don't count then is House Stark not Eddard and the acts of Catelyn don't count either? By your reasoning Tywin would have no reason or justification for acting.

Of course those acts do count as Rhaegar (not House Targaryen)'s kidnapping of Lyanna Stark and Brandon (not House Stark)'s challenge to Rhaegar would tend to suggest.

Third no one attacked Jaime. Jaime waylaid Ned in the street. Jaime had 20 men, Ned 4. Jaime intended to kill Ned, only refraining because of Ned's bluff that Catelyn might kill Tyrion in retaliation.

The concept of family is very strong in ASOIAF, whether the notion of blood relation or loyalty to one's House. I find it strange you would discount that and assume that Cersei or Jaime could act as free agents without any consequence to the Lannisters as a House.

The head of the house decides Cat is not the head of the house - when she abducts Tyrion Tywin going after the Tully because she claimed to be going there. In a patriarhal society the head of the house decides the course of action - Cersei is not even a member of house Lannister any more - she is a Baratheon.

[The Frosted King]

I also think it should be acknowledged that House Lannister not only destroyed House Stark, but the realm overall.

Between their bastards on the throne, and their treatment of honorable people of import, they put to flame the bonds that held the kingdoms together.

Tywin wanted power and security, but the actions of himself and his children ensured that they'd always be unpopular and hated tyrants, who'd send the dismayed into more reasonable arms.

We saw this with Robb, we saw this with Renly, and we're going to see it with Aegon and hopefully Dany.

[Minstral]

There's a high chance that House Westerling defected under Tywin's orders so that Robb would be tempted to break his marriage pact with the Freys. Even if that's not the case, they were certainly quick to rejoin with the Lannisters

Joffrey was house Baratheon, but even if you count him as a Lannister, none of the Vassels who rose up against him were ever sworn to house Lannister, so how can you say they rebelled against them?

The Freys on the other hand, swore an oath to recognise Robb Stark as king in the North. An oath we can all admit they failed to keep.

Without Lannister support Roose would have been hunted down as a traitor Red wedding or not. Do you really think that Roose would be stupid enough to kill his own leige lord without backing from a greater power? He'd have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

No, if we are talking about loyalty to the Great Houses by Region, Stark/North vs the Westerlands/Lannister, then we are looking at the houses that have been sworn to them preceding the WOT5K. Not the Freys that threw in their lot with the Starks for about two and a half years.

[the trees have eyes]

While the Lannisters sent house Stark to rock bottom, the wolves will surely return and reap their vengeance...

That's what a lot of people expect. But it seems the Lannisters are falling without the Starks being the ones to deliver their comeuppance.

I feel the series will end with a Stark in Winterfell but I feel there is a good chance there will be a Lannister in the Rock as well. That Lannister might be walking small (sorry!) and the House in poor standing but I don't think GRRM is going for the classic "good versus evil" premise with the "good" Starks returning to vanquish the "evil" Lannisters. That seems too simple and doesn't feel quite right for what this story has become.

[Frey Pie]

Can i just ask how House Lannister did more harm to House Stark then House Baelish?

[the trees have eyes]

The head of the house decides Cat is not the head of the house - when she abducts Tyrion Tywin going after the Tully because she claimed to be going there. In a patriarhal society the head of the house decides the course of action - Cersei is not even a member of house Lannister any more - she is a Baratheon.

But see that doesn't really work because Jaime waylaid Ned in KL without Tywin's authority. Same way he threw Bran out the tower window without his say so.

Cersei is a Barratheon and not even a member of House Lannister you say? Who was guarding her and the royal family? Lannister Household guards. The moment Robert dies Cersei becomes a Lannister again and moves back under her father's protection and authority. We see this with Tywin making arrangements for her marriage against her will.

The head of the House makes the decisions sure but his offspring are not free agents. Their actions tie their houses into obligations and conflicts which sometimes those patriarchs don't want and didn't plan for. The Great Houses stick by their own because blood matters and what Tyrion or Jaime, Loras or Margaery, Arya or Sansa, Theon or Asha, etc, do matters as much as what their fathers do.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I must be crazy, I thought I saw somewhere in this thread that people follow House Lannister out of actual loyalty and not in fear of bing annihilated. Funny, right?

[Penguin king]

Can i just ask how House Lannister did more harm to House Stark then House Baelish?

They didn't. House Lannister was Littlefinger's tool in destroying House Stark, the same way that Houses Bolton and Frey were the Lannister's tools.

Littlefinger is the man who started the war, but Tywin is the man who won it.

[Frey Pie]

They didn't. House Lannister was Littlefinger's tool in destroying House Stark, the same way that Houses Bolton and Frey were the Lannister's tools.

Littlefinger is the man who started the war, but Tywin is the man who won it.

Oh right so it was Tywin who negotiated the alliance with Mace? Id forgotten. And it was Tywin who stopped the Arryns from joining on Robbs side. LF started the war, won it for the Lannisters, and then prolonged it. Id love to know his plans

[R'Laura's Dad]

If House Stark has actually lost I thought it was the Baratheons that laid them low. Remember what killed the direwolf pups' mother?

Robert dragged them in to the politics of Kings Landing, Renly didn't back Ned when he needed it, Stannis wouldn't ally with Robb to defeat their true enemies.

And Ned loved Robert like a brother.

If anyone has defeated the Starks it was the Baratheons.

[Frey Pie]

I must be crazy, I thought I saw somewhere in this thread that people follow House Lannister out of actual loyalty and not in fear of bing annihilated. Funny, right?

Nope your perfectly sane, and theres no need to get your eyes checked ;)

[Penguin king]

I must be crazy, I thought I saw somewhere in this thread that people follow House Lannister out of actual loyalty and not in fear of bing annihilated. Funny, right?

Of course the Lannisters have loyal vassels. As the saying goes, "A Lannister always pays his debts". People who serve the Lannisters faithfully are well rewarded. House spicer, house Clegane etc. Tywin was happy to use the carrot as well as the stick.