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BananaSpice

[Book Spoilers] Theon!

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True, but what I meant with the Robb part is, if Theon deserves some kind of punishment, robb clearly does too. He is the biggest traitor in the books. He should have gone to Stannis. And he killed hundreds maybe thousands of innocent people.

Then every individual in the ASOIAF world is not blameless, coz even those we considered honorable are also guilty of something; the innocents included - if they wished or desire that someone must die (it's a sin, according to a religious belief in our world, at least. Not sure in theirs). If that's the case Robb, or anyone who we thought is just, is not fit to judge or punish someone who committed some wrongdoings because he, too, committed something that is punishable by..something (as you've pointed out). Who's out there fitting to do this thing? The gods of Westeros who judged Tyrion a kingslayer? (kidding...i hope i did not anger R'hllor or the 7 gods :D) It's a complicated matter.

And about the punishment of Theon. Imo, he got that before he committed the crime. Being a prisoner. And maybe he still deserves some punishment but can't decide what kind. And about the death's of the orphans, part of the blame is that of Bran and co, for leaving. Theon wouldn't have hurt them and still they walk away (I understand them too).

I will be horrified if Theon/Reek will get further punishment or torture. Enough already. :(

Can't blame the kids from leaving, same as

Reek and Jeyne from escaping.

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Theon turned into a monster. He's a notch below Joffrey but he's up there.

I just ... can't ... with this. I have no idea how anyone could think Theon is anything like Joffrey ... like, at all.

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Theon is a turncloak. A crime every Lord in Westeros is guilty of. Why is Theon a monster because he turned his cloak against the family that kept him hostage for 10 years? Theon had more right to do what he did then Robb did in crowning himself king. Everyone from Jamie to Ned chose his blood over his liege and suffered for it. Theon did the same and if you hate him for it you aren't being introspective but rather using your own predilections to judge him! That's my two cents on it. By the way,"killing" the Stark boys was a good thing. What do you think happens when one of Ned Starks murdered sons turn up? ;] Oh the intrigue.

I mean no offense to Theon haters, just my own opinion.

Also with Tyrions nose still attached its hard to think Theon will lose anything. I wasn't sure whether he said "Take it out" in refrence to the drill or "Take is off in refrence to the mask." I dont think he wanted to lose anything. We may see Theon lose "that other thing" and may finally be clear on what it is.

Based on how much they are condensing I think Theon will hold the Northern plot together from now on. Which is a welcome addition to me.

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Theon turned into a monster. He's a notch below Joffrey but he's up there.

i see this was derived from the Rodrick Cassel scene in the show. Which was to show that Theon's sword in not Valyrian and that he is more Stark then Ironborn.

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I just ... can't ... with this. I have no idea how anyone could think Theon is anything like Joffrey ... like, at all.

Burned two kids. Beheaded Ser Roderick.

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i see this was derived from the Rodrick Cassel scene in the show. Which was to show that Theon's sword in not Valyrian and that he is more Stark then Ironborn.

Yeah, it's a different character in the book, right? Someone who may or may not have been guilty, but Theon was being influenced (like usual) and felt like he was doing the right thing and did it himself by beheading as opposed to drowing, but botched it a bit b/c ... beheading is hard if you don't have a super amazing sword (Robb has the exact same problem in ASOS, right!?) ... so yeah, Theon really wants to be a Stark, but he doesn't really realize it until later in ADWD.

Oh yeah, in the book Ramsay is the one who kills Ser Rodrick (in a horrible way) ...

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True, but what I meant with the Robb part is, if Theon deserves some kind of punishment, robb clearly does too. He is the biggest traitor in the books. He should have gone to Stannis. And he killed hundreds maybe thousands of innocent people.

And about the punishment of Theon. Imo, he got that before he committed the crime. Being a prisoner. And maybe he still deserves some punishment but can't decide what kind. And about the death's of the orphans, part of the blame is that of Bran and co, for leaving. Theon wouldn't have hurt them and still they walk away (I understand them too).

Kevin you are truly someone who shares my opinions on the matter!

Yeah Theon never broke his promise to the Starks when they took him hostage, the Stark boys did not return the favor. Robb and Renly were the reason the wat of the 5 kings turned out the way it did. Robb decided to make common cause with RENLY and BALON...case CLOSED. Usurper siding with Usurper. By Law Joffery is king, by technicality Stannis is king. Robb sent Theon back, you must blame Robb for that. Robb didn't bend the knee to Stannis you must blame him for that. Robb Stark is not the hero-man most people think him to be he is as grey as Theon.

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Kevin you are truly someone who shares my opinions on the matter!

Yeah Theon never broke his promise to the Starks when they took him hostage, the Stark boys did not return the favor. Robb and Renly were the reason the wat of the 5 kings turned out the way it did. Robb decided to make common cause with RENLY and BALON...case CLOSED. Usurper siding with Usurper. By Law Joffery is king, by technicality Stannis is king. Robb sent Theon back, you must blame Robb for that. Robb didn't bend the knee to Stannis you must blame him for that. Robb Stark is not the hero-man most people think him to be he is as grey as Theon.

Yes exactly!! People just just love the Starks too much and absolve them of all blame / wrongdoing.

Burned two kids. Beheaded Ser Roderick.

It sounds like you haven't read the books, where things go down a little differently and you get even more insight into Theon's thoughts, but still ... he is still sympathetic in the show. I feel like most haters could do with a more sympathetic rewatch / reread of Theon.

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Yeah, it's a different character in the book, right? Someone who may or may not have been guilty, but Theon was being influenced (like usual) and felt like he was doing the right thing and did it himself by beheading as opposed to drowing, but botched it a bit b/c ... beheading is hard if you don't have a super amazing sword (Robb has the exact same problem in ASOS, right!?) ... so yeah, Theon really wants to be a Stark, but he doesn't really realize it until later in ADWD.

Oh yeah, in the book Ramsay is the one who kills Ser Rodrick (in a horrible way) ...

Ramsay killed the kids in the books FOR theon, SO theon only LET him do it but did not participate. Ramsay also killed Rodrick in the books. Theon is heavily vilinized in the show but in the book he only beheaded some dude who was commiting murders and once he did the murderes stopped. Theon killed two of his own men for raping people in WInterfell in the books too. We need some Lady Hornwood in the show!

Theon in the show gave Dagmer gold for the farmer for his troubles, Dagmer told him that the farmer is dead meaning Dagmer killed the kids and the farmer and Theon didnt know at all, atleast thats how I see it based on the fact he didnt know the farmer was dead.

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I just think Theon is so tragic b/c the entire time he is doing bad things / making bad decision he KNOWS IT. Everyone else is either a true evil villain (Boltons, Joffrey, Cersei, etc.) and doesn't give a shit or they just accept that they are good people and doing right/necessary things. Ned might be the one exception who automatically always does what is Good/Right ... and ... well, that didn't work out so well for him, did it? Theon is in more emotional turmoil over everything than any other character, it seems.

And I don't mean that other characters aren't in emotional turmoil, but just over things they are doing that could be bad/wrong/evil.

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I just think Theon is so tragic b/c the entire time he is doing bad things / making bad decision he KNOWS IT. Everyone else is either a true evil villain (Boltons, Joffrey, Cersei, etc.) and doesn't give a shit or they just accept that they are good people and doing right/necessary things. Ned might be the one exception who automatically always does what is Good/Right ... and ... well, that didn't work out so well for him, did it? Theon is in more emotional turmoil over everything than any other character, it seems.

And I don't mean that other characters aren't in emotional turmoil, but just over things they are doing that could be bad/wrong/evil.

Yeah Theon knows hes dealt a shitty hand and kind of like Stannis he decides to play it anyway. Theon just wanted to be sung about as the only Non-Stark in history to take the castle from the outside and be a hero, i think its all he wanted from his life. May the Old Gods have mercy on his soul.

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Well, in 210, Measter Luwin tells him, you are trying to be something you are not. Theon responds, I am too far into what I'm trying be to be to stop. He refuses to change. He is not tragic.

He stays at Winterfell to lead his troops out of siege before being knocked unconscious by his own men.

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Theon had the potential to be a major player up until he arrived at Pyke. After that it was all downhill, Theon became just an annoyance to me right after Bran and Rickon left Winterfell. .

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Well, in 210, Measter Luwin tells him, you are trying to be something you are not. Theon responds, I am too far into what I'm trying be to be to stop. He refuses to change. He is not tragic.

He stays at Winterfell to lead his troops out of siege before being knocked unconscious by his own men.

He was trying to be Ironborn when he was a Northman. But at this point no Northman respects him and would not help him. So he wanted to die as we was born, a son of Pyke. I think it is tragic, that neither his father nor the Starks ever truly accepted him. Ned Stark kept the long shadow of Ice between them, Cat treated him like Jon, and Robb YELLED at him for saving Bran's life.

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Well, in 210, Measter Luwin tells him, you are trying to be something you are not. Theon responds, I am too far into what I'm trying be to be to stop. He refuses to change. He is not tragic.

He stays at Winterfell to lead his troops out of siege before being knocked unconscious by his own men.

To me, that's tragic. Also, in the book he is seriously about to take the black and is excited about it - i.e. he wants to confess his crimes and have them wiped away and to bring glory to himself in a noble way ... but then just before he decides to do so fully, Ramsay comes and betrays the northmen and essentially ruins everything, b/c Theon thinks he's saved ... but he is so, so, so wrong.

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True, but what I meant with the Robb part is, if Theon deserves some kind of punishment, robb clearly does too. He is the biggest traitor in the books. He should have gone to Stannis. And he killed hundreds maybe thousands of innocent people.

It is amazing that people can actually feel this way. Robb is a flawed character but being a traitor is factually not one of his flaws.

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Why? It need to be shown for the show because of 2 things: 1. If Alfie isn't in the show for 2 seasons, he will be do other projects instead of GoT. 2. We need to know how he become this thing in DwD. his chapters has the benefit that we know through FB what happened. This need to be in the show. Else people will have, huh what? But I think it was better if they showed him not in this episode but in episode 5 or 6 for the first time this season.

And about Arya, you can't have too much arya in a season, Maissie is under age so there are rules about how long she can work a year.

Whatever the rules are, I doubt she's reaching anywhere close to the limit. The producers have truncated her storyline for budget reasons, not because they would break the law by showing her more.

Either way, one Theon scene would have been enough. He could have just made a one episode cameo like Sallador Saan. Showing his fruitless/pointless storyline throughout the season is only going to be silly because it's an original story and we should be wary of original storylines after Daenery's arc last season.

I mean really, how many episodes showing Theon being tortured do we need?

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I love that they reminded viewers that he was a prisoner at Winterfell. I love how they already seem to be setting up an unhealthy Stockholm Syndrome relationship between Theon and (unnamed character who is obviously Ramsay) - "Please don't leave me!" I'm really impressed.

I understand that this is confusing to non-book-readers, though ... my husband thinks that Theon is being kept by his father / Ironborn since Ramsay mentioned his sister.

Ahhh so good! I loved so many things in this episode!!!

I was nervous about how they would treat Theon's book plotline, but this was good. I guess we'll get to actually see some of the torture (physical and mental) that was done to him, but I wonder how they'll be able to keep it up for the events of ADWD to occur. I guess they'll just move a lot of the Moat Cailin and Winterfell stuff up...and make up some stuff. Do tv-viewer really want to see Theon/Reek for more than one season though?

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Then every individual in the ASOIAF world is not blameless, coz even those we considered honorable are also guilty of something; the innocents included - if they wished or desire that someone must die (it's a sin, according to a religious belief in our world, at least. Not sure in theirs). If that's the case Robb, or anyone who we thought is just, is not fit to judge or punish someone who committed some wrongdoings because he, too, committed something that is punishable by..something (as you've pointed out). Who's out there fitting to do this thing? The gods of Westeros who judged Tyrion a kingslayer? (kidding...i hope i did not anger R'hllor or the 7 gods :D) It's a complicated matter.

I will be horrified if Theon/Reek will get further punishment or torture. Enough already. :(

Can't blame the kids from leaving, same as

Reek and Jeyne from escaping.

True, but if you look for instance at Bran, he wouldn't kill somebody innocent. And I meant that personally I think that Robb deserves a bigger punishment than Theon.

It is amazing that people can actually feel this way. Robb is a flawed character but being a traitor is factually not one of his flaws.

Not a traitor? Joffrey is King and he is rebelling against him. And even if you say, Joffrey is not trully the king he isn't a baratheon, then he should have helped Stannis, he didn't helped Stannis, that way he still is a traitor. He and Renly are the 2 kings that haven't have any claim to the throne or being a king. In fact if you debate who deserves the throne, only Joffrey, Stannis and Danny are part of it. Because they have in some way a claim to the throne. Joffrey because he is legally the son of Robert. Stannis because if you look at blood he is the one that needs to follow up Robert. And you can even say that Robert was a traitor and than the throne belongs to Danny.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why Robb is rebelling and why he being a traitor. But that doesn't mean I close my eyes because Robb is one of the good guys is just wrong imo.

Whatever the rules are, I doubt she's reaching anywhere close to the limit. The producers have truncated her storyline for budget reasons, not because they would break the law by showing her more.

Either way, one Theon scene would have been enough. He could have just made a one episode cameo like Sallador Saan. Showing his fruitless/pointless storyline throughout the season is only going to be silly because it's an original story and we should be wary of original storylines after Daenery's arc last season.

I mean really, how many episodes showing Theon being tortured do we need?

True about Arya, but even than we must not forget that she's underage.

About Theon if they wanted to do it right it must be in multiple episodes to have the audience really believe what's going on. personally I think that 4 episodes is the right amount. 1. that we saw. 2. The escape. 3. Starting to trust Rampsey and telling him everything Ramsey want's to know. 4. The truth about the Boltons. Personally I think it would have been better if we saw him first in episode 5. Leaving him out of 2 episodes.

And I think that this season will be about showing the Bolton's betrayal and Theon turning into Reek. Next year we will see him around episode 8 again (probably not in the show for a long time). And we have the first chapter of DwD in season 4.

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