[Book Spoilers] Theon!

[BananaSpice]

I think it would be pretty obvious where he is ...just by looking at the contraption he's in and how the directors always seem to zero in on a certain northern lords sigil....

Based on my conversation with non-book-readers, it isn't obvious at all. It seems obvious for us, b/c we know everything and are super into the story and paying attention to every detail and not at all confused as to who anyone is. For the casual viewer (i.e. those who have only watched each episode of the entire show once) they are still struggling to remember who everyone is. They don't pick up on name drops and they aren't paying a lot of attention to sigils. Without reading the books, you'd have to be REALLY into the show and REALLY good at remembering and noticing details.

I mean, the hints are certainly there, but it seems OMG SO OBVIOUS to us, but I don't think it actually is ... lol. Not to mention that a lot of fans might not be thinking too hard about it ... I'm, like, obsessed with Theon, so I'm overly analyzing.

[Montey14]

Based on my conversation with non-book-readers, it isn't obvious at all. It seems obvious for us, b/c we know everything and are super into the story and paying attention to every detail and not at all confused as to who anyone is. For the casual viewer (i.e. those who have only watched each episode of the entire show once) they are still struggling to remember who everyone is. They don't pick up on name drops and they aren't paying a lot of attention to sigils. Without reading the books, you'd have to be REALLY into the show and REALLY good at remembering and noticing details.

I mean, the hints are certainly there, but it seems OMG SO OBVIOUS to us, but I don't think it actually is ... lol. Not to mention that a lot of fans might not be thinking too hard about it ... I'm, like, obsessed with Theon, so I'm overly analyzing.

I don't know ....I was watching the show with a non reader and she kind of picked up on the flayed man contraption pretty quickly....I just thought that it would be pretty obvious being that Roose Bolton unabashedly displays that hideous sigil so prominently....he seems to be the only northern lord to display it on his cloaks and armor....

[Montey14]

I think i have a hole in my memory..

You should know that i finished reading AFfC..

I cant really remember what happened to Theon after he got captured by Ramsay. Can someone refresh my old brain?

Or anyway what even was mentioned about him..

I was aware already that Theon get tortured in ADwD.. because of a Picture showing him with Blood and there is a connection to Ramsay.

So without spoiling me for what will happen to him in ADwD i want to know what happened to him after he got captured by Ramsay.

Thx in advance.. and i always thought i had a brilliant capacity for remembering. :bang:

Well in the books the Theon is not seen or heard from until book 5....books 3 and 4 make no mention of him until his story line picks up again as Reek in book 5....and through his recolections in book 5 we see how ramsay decunstructs him and completely takes his identity ...and transforms him into his own personal pet...though he wasn't really tortured in ADWD...he recounts of his tortureduring the time that books 3 and 4 are going on

[BananaSpice]

I don't know ....I was watching the show with a non reader and she kind of picked up on the flayed man contraption pretty quickly....I just thought that it would be pretty obvious being that Roose Bolton unabashedly displays that hideous sigil so prominently....he seems to be the only northern lord to display it on his cloaks and armor....

It's definitely possible to pick up on it, but it probably depends on the viewer. I'm just saying it isn't necessarily "obvious" ... it probably depends on which characters the watcher likes the best, tbh. You know, which stories they are paying the most attention to ... like, I've read a couple reviews of this episode that don't mention Theon at all, and I'm thinking HOW IS THAT NOT THE ONE THING BURNED IN YOUR MIND!?!

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

My only regret is I know Tumblr will be crawling with Theon/Ramsay shippers. I'm either going to ruin my keyboard from laugh-spitting coffee or have a painful need for brain bleach.

Ship, Ship, it sounds like "....oh, Shit..."

[you have to know your meme]

[BananaSpice]

Ship, Ship, it sounds like "....oh, Shit..."

[you have to know your meme]

OH GOD THAT IS PERFECT.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Not a traitor? Joffrey is King and he is rebelling against him. And even if you say, Joffrey is not trully the king he isn't a baratheon, then he should have helped Stannis, he didn't helped Stannis, that way he still is a traitor. He and Renly are the 2 kings that haven't have any claim to the throne or being a king. In fact if you debate who deserves the throne, only Joffrey, Stannis and Danny are part of it. Because they have in some way a claim to the throne. Joffrey because he is legally the son of Robert. Stannis because if you look at blood he is the one that needs to follow up Robert. And you can even say that Robert was a traitor and than the throne belongs to Danny.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why Robb is rebelling and why he being a traitor. But that doesn't mean I close my eyes because Robb is one of the good guys is just wrong imo.

Nope. Not a traitor at all. He is guilty of Sedition not Treachery.

1) Robb has no idea about the parentage of Joffrey. He is rebelling against Joffreys unjust acts and the Lannisters

2) No he should not have supported Stannis. Stannis is guilty of Treachery as was Renly. Tommen is next in line to the throne followed by Myrcella.

3) The North bent the knee to the Targaryens. The end of the Targaryens means they are not beholden to the oath of King Bran

That said, Robb is an idiot. Catelyn lost me in the books with the release of Ser Jaime. Robb lost me with the marriage to Jayne/Talisa.

Now to Theon. A doltish fool playing games way over his head. The purpose is to not feel sorry for him yet. It is to be seen as run-of-the-mill torture. Once the reveal of the Bastard of Bolton and the scale of the torture is realised, then certain other betrayals will have happened. The whole purpose is to create the emotional roller-coaster.

The claim that 'Robb deserves it more than Theon' is crackpot bugnuttery. Theon is a complex character but a 'good guy' he aint. And no one deserves it other than the Bastard.

----

As for another claim by someone that the Greyjoys are good guys and anyone who says otherwise is a Stark sycophant - more crackpot bugnuttery. Try saying that to any of the small folk along the west coast who have had anything that could be carried stolen, anything that couldn't burnt and anything that moved raped by the Iron Born for hundreds of years. And Theon, as complex as he is, has this as his blood heritage.

I love the job Alfie is doing though. Thoroughly enjoying his performance.

[BananaSpice]

Nope. Not a traitor at all. He is guilty of Sedition not Treachery.

1) Robb has no idea about the parentage of Joffrey. He is rebelling against Joffreys unjust acts and the Lannisters

2) No he should not have supported Stannis. Stannis is guilty of Treachery as was Renly. Tommen is next in line to the throne followed by Myrcella.

3) The North bent the knee to the Targaryens. The end of the Targaryens means they are not beholden to the oath of King Bran

That said, Robb is an idiot. Catelyn lost me in the books with the release of Ser Jaime. Robb lost me with the marriage to Jayne/Talisa.

Now to Theon. A doltish fool playing games way over his head. The purpose is to not feel sorry for him yet. It is to be seen as run-of-the-mill torture. Once the reveal of the Bastard of Bolton and the scale of the torture is realised, then certain other betrayals will have happened. The whole purpose is to create the emotional roller-coaster.

The claim that 'Robb deserves it more than Theon' is crackpot bugnuttery. Theon is a complex character but a 'good guy' he aint. And no one deserves it other than the Bastard.

----

As for another claim by someone that the Greyjoys are good guys and anyone who says otherwise is a Stark sycophant - more crackpot bugnuttery. Try saying that to any of the small folk along the west coast who have had anything that could be carried stolen, anything that couldn't burnt and anything that moved raped by the Iron Born for hundreds of years. And Theon, as complex as he is, has this as his blood heritage.

I love the job Alfie is doing though. Thoroughly enjoying his performance.

I mostly agree with this ... Robb definitely doesn't deserve torture, and he certainly isn't a "bad guy." I would argue that while the Greyjoys, as a whole, are nowhere near as good/just as the Starks, Theon, in particular is not really one of them and certainly not a cut and dry villain. He's half Stark / half Greyjoy, really, and that's the tragic part.

[kevin1989]

I mostly agree with this ... Robb definitely doesn't deserve torture, and he certainly isn't a "bad guy." I would argue that while the Greyjoys, as a whole, are nowhere near as good/just as the Starks, Theon, in particular is not really one of them and certainly not a cut and dry villain. He's half Stark / half Greyjoy, really, and that's the tragic part.

This.

But I didn't say that Robb deserves torture, I said that Robb treachery was bigger than that of Theon and thereby he deserves a bigger punishment, I didn't say anything that Robb deserves a bigger punishment than Theon got.

Ned swore fealty to Robert Baretheon. Thereby Winterfel swore an oath to Robert and when Robert and Ned died, this oath remains with Robb and Joffrey. Therefore it's treachery.

And about Stannis, I said that if Joffrey isn't the rightful heir of Robert because of the incest thing, the throne goes to Stannis. Therefore he commited treachery to Stannis.

Is Robb (from season 2 not after he married) a better king than Joffrey, Renly, Stannis. Probably at least better than Joffrey and Renly. But that doesn't mean that there are laws and if you look at laws Robb is the least in line to be king (of the kings that are fighting in season 2)

[Direwolfsigil]

Wow, I never would have guessed Theon had fans, lots of them.

Good read.

[Dove]

Yup, Theon fan all up in here. He's a great character, and anyone truly rooting for him to get tortured or lacks any sympathy for him whatsoever, especially after seeing the fate he suffered through in ADWD, is either sort of heartless or has a huuge blind spot where "people who are vaguely mean to the Starks" are concerned.

[sifth]

Yup, Theon fan all up in here. He's a great character, and anyone truly rooting for him to get tortured or lacks any sympathy for him whatsoever, especially after seeing the fate he suffered through in ADWD, is either sort of heartless or has a huuge blind spot where "people who are vaguely mean to the Starks" are concerned.

or those who hate children killers, ha ha ha

I love how every Theon fan just forgives him for this, lol

[BananaSpice]

or those who hate children killers, ha ha ha

I love how every Theon fan just forgives him for this, lol

Honestly, now, in order to like ANY character in ASOIAF you have to "forgive" them for something terrible or stupid that they've done. That's kind of the point. There are no black and white standards here.

Edited to add: also, being really hung up on him killing those two children is a very modern view. The children in the show were orphans, and in the book "just" Miller's kids ... if he had killed a couple of kids without everything else that happened for some other reason, it would be considered bad in ASOIAF world, but not as bad as in our world today. We have different standards. We can't hold the characters to modern standards (this goes across the board, tbh).

I mean, if you can't get over that and hate him for that, then fair enough, I guess. But taking all things surrounding the killing of the children, I *can* forgive him for that.

[Dove]

He killed two kids - (In the books he didn't even kill those kids, it was Ramsay who did the deed.) - so he deserves to be tortured and abused until he's a physically/mentally broken man who eats rats and has gut-wrenching panic attacks at the thought of his own name? :whip: That's a pretty stark (lol) gruesome view of justice.

There's a pretty big difference between outright forgiving a character for all the bad shit they've done-because pretty much every single main character in ASOIAF is guilty of something or another-and being able to have sympathy for someone put into an extraordinarily horrible position.

[lostinwesteros]

Theon is my favorite character in the books and I hope they will show the truth in the show, that Theon's only crime is taking over Winterfell. and that the body's wasn't his work. Because this episode it looks like he hated the Starks, but that wasn't the case in the books. He just wanted to prove himself to his father.

Respectfully submitted, and in the vein of discussion, which is one of the great things about this forum -- WOW, are we ever in disagreement about Theon's 'only crime'! I definitely agree that his character is full of pathos and tragedy, and I've hurt for him on more than one occasion, BUT . . . badly butchering poor Ser Roderick in the beheading scene (in front of Rickon, yet!) and his torturing/killing other of Winterfell's servants to 'gain their respect', murdering the Farmer's sons just to save face, etc., etc. keep me far from thinking that taking over Winterfell is his only crime. :frown5:

[I'll pay the iron price]

Compared to his Uncle Euron, Theons crimes dont look to bad!

[BananaSpice]

Respectfully submitted, and in the vein of discussion, which is one of the great things about this forum -- WOW, are we ever in disagreement about Theon's 'only crime'! I definitely agree that his character is full of pathos and tragedy, and I've hurt for him on more than one occasion, BUT . . . badly butchering poor Ser Roderick in the beheading scene (in front of Rickon, yet!) and his torturing/killing other of Winterfell's servants to 'gain their respect', murdering the Farmer's sons just to save face, etc., etc. keep me far from thinking that taking over Winterfell is his only crime. :frown5:

It kind of bothers me that Theon was the one to kill Rodrick in the show, but oh well ... the way that Ramsay killed him was just so underhanded and awful. It's true that Theon killed another person in the same way as Rodrick, but that wouldn't have been as dramatic, I guess :/

[Dove]

That's true, plus it was a really good scene. Dagmer kind of fulfilled the role that Ramsay did last scene season, in encouraging Theon's increasingly horrible actions to save face and keep Winterfell.

Theon's thing is that he's desperately insecure and craves approval thanks to the circumstances of his past, and that's what made him so easy to manipulate into doing the things he did: first by his father, runner-up in the ASOIAF Worst Dad Ever award, then by Ramsay/Dagmer. He is and isn't an idiot; he's clever enough, but he's basically hardwired to make the Worst Possible Decision in any circumstance, haha.

Considering the hell he goes through from ACoK->ADwD, he more than earns his redemption in my eyes. Especially when he rebuilds his broken identity to save someone who's truly innocent, and in the only worse possible position than Theon himself: Jeyne. It's a small action, but one of the most heroic in ASOIAF when you consider how broken of a man he was.

[sifth]

He killed two kids - (In the books he didn't even kill those kids, it was Ramsay who did the deed.) - so he deserves to be tortured and abused until he's a physically/mentally broken man who eats rats and has gut-wrenching panic attacks at the thought of his own name? :whip: That's a pretty stark (lol) gruesome view of justice.

There's a pretty big difference between outright forgiving a character for all the bad shit they've done-because pretty much every single main character in ASOIAF is guilty of something or another-and being able to have sympathy for someone put into an extraordinarily horrible position.

no, he deserves to be killed for what he did; since GRRM wishes to keep him alive this is the second best way to punish him. It was Ramsay's idea to kill the kids, that doesn't mean Theon didn't take part in it

but yea Theon is a great guy an I should feel bad for him, lol

edit: so what evil has Bran, Davos, The Reed's, The Old Bear, Ser Barristan, The Half Hand, Sam, Jon Snow, and Brienne done. None were children killers I can tell you that much, lol

[kevin1989]

edit: so what evil has Bran, Davos, The Reed's, The Old Bear, Ser Barristan, The Half Hand, Sam, Jon Snow, and Brienne done. None were children killers I can tell you that much, lol

Bran: Has commited one of the biggest crime a warg can do, eating human flesh and taking over another human being.

Sam: Nothing really bad, but we have still 2 books left.

Jon: none.

Brienne: None.

But do you think that Robb didn't kill innocent children? He did probably even more than Theon. Only thing is that this is redeemed because he is 1. A stark and 2. The victims were Lannisters. Many people who Robb attacked were just fishing villager in the westlands, but we didn't hear about it.

Look at Khal Drogo that everybody seems to love what he did (and what he wanted to do if he had lived. Raping woman, making children slaves. Why did many loved him when he did this terrible things?

Oh and interview with Alfie Allen:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/04/07/game-of-thrones-theon/

Nice thoughts how he thinks about Theon and how David and Dan thinks about him.