Could Varys have "Dreams"?

[History of Westeros]

The idea occurred to me when I re-read this line:

"There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest," Bloodraven said, "so we should not be surprised if from time to time a Blackfyre displays the gift as well."

Varys could easily have Targaryen or Blackfyre blood, through Daemon's sons or Aerion Brightflame. This is well known here.

We know how the little birds work, basically, and that they gather many secrets and bear witness to many comings and goings.

But that doesn't preclude the possibility that he has the gift of prophetic dreams. It could be that the little birds are legitimate but they are also a cover for supernatural skills.

Interesting to consider...certainly not proven in any way that comes to mind. If this hasn't been discussed, I'd like to see if other people have clues. If it has, I'd like to read that discussion.

[The BlackBear]

But Martin paints prophesies as incredibly vague, so even if he does have the dreams they'd be of little use to him in any precise information gathering.

[History of Westeros]

They are vague for most characters, but not all. Moqorro, for example, has fairly precise visions. He predicted the locations of several ships.

[History of Westeros]

Aenar Targaryen's daughter predicted the Doom 12 years in advance. Did she specifically see the Fourteen Fires erupt or did she simply see vague notions of an apocalypse? If they weren't specific, there was certainly something tangible enough. The Targs left Valyria altogether, so it clearly they took it very seriously (and clearly, they were correct to do so, heh). I doubt they would completely uproot themselves, abandoning much of their power *and* become a laughingstock, over something that's overly vague.

Apart from that I disagree with the basic assumption that "vague" means useless. Varys is not arrogant like Melisandre, he might realize his dreams are fallible or imperfect.

Varys could be preparing for something "big" he's foreseen, or just have notions of which Houses will rise or fall.

Or maybe, like the young Toland girl, he has foreseen the return of Dragons and is preparing to be on the right side.

[Buried Treasure]

A sorcerer cut off his balls. IIRC he claimed to hate magic, it doesn't sound like he is a magic user himself, even if he were a Blackfyre (which he totally is not).

IMO hatred of magic is more likely to be his actual motivation than him secretly being a member of a family he wants to restore to the throne. Westeros is a good place for an anti-magic agenda; when Aerys hired him magic was rare there compared to Essos and the Maesters are already working against it.

[History of Westeros]

Dreams aren't something one can control. Varys does tell Tyrion that he hates magic, but that point does nothing to rule out this possibility.

He could hate magic and still have dreams.

[Buried Treasure]

Being a magic hater probably goes against him utilising any magic dreams he might be having or generally acting on any prophecy (even somebody else's).

[History of Westeros]

If his dreams come true, I doubt he'd just ignore them. How could a person ignore such a thing?

But besides that, Varys' hatred of magic is not actually a certainty. It's something he told Tyrion. (I believe it, to be fair, but we should be wary of just about anything Varys says).

[Buried Treasure]

Was it Tyrion he told? I was looking for the quote in Ned's dungeon chapters and obviously could not find it. Could you remind me when they talked about it?

Would he know the dreams were true? You used Moqorro as an example of somebody who gets useful knowledge from his visions but he is trained in magic use - amatuer prophets (and even some of the professional ones) suck at the interpretation gig.

Funny you should mention believing everything Varys says; his story of mummers and sorcerers and hatred of magic is the one time I genuinely take him at his word. What purpose is there to making up such a backstory - say nothing and people will presume you had a poor and largely uneventful childhood like everybody else. It's the same reason I believe Illyrio when he says he married a Prince's cousin then lost the priveldges that won him by marrying a slave. All of which makes me very skeptical that any of that little group are related to the Blackfyres.

[Masha]

If his dreams come true, I doubt he'd just ignore them. How could a person ignore such a thing?

But besides that, Varys' hatred of magic is not actually a certainty. It's something he told Tyrion. (I believe it, to be fair, but we should be wary of just about anything Varys says).

Unless Varys suspects his dreams are prophetic he won't be able to recognize them as coming true. These dreams are so vague, so left to impretations that unless Varys is specifically looking for future in his dreams he won't be able to tell that he is seing futures in his dreams. (ex. Mystery knight: Daemon's: Dragon hatching from egg in Whitewalls. Reality: Egg coming into his own as Targ. Daemon never recognized the truth of his dream he kept thinking the actual dragon will be born).

If Varys not paying attention to his dreams he won't be able to realize they are prophetic not just reflections of his waking hours and stress.

[Balerion06]

Was it Tyrion he told? I was looking for the quote in Ned's dungeon chapters and obviously could not find it. Could you remind me when they talked about it?

Would he know the dreams were true? You used Moqorro as an example of somebody who gets useful knowledge from his visions but he is trained in magic use - amatuer prophets (and even some of the professional ones) suck at the interpretation gig.

Funny you should mention believing everything Varys says; his story of mummers and sorcerers and hatred of magic is the one time I genuinely take him at his word. What purpose is there to making up such a backstory - say nothing and people will presume you had a poor and largely uneventful childhood like everybody else. It's the same reason I believe Illyrio when he says he married a Prince's cousin then lost the priveldges that won him by marrying a slave. All of which makes me very skeptical that any of that little group are related to the Blackfyres.

Could you elaborate on that? Don't most fans use it as proof that the slave girl he married might have been a Blackfyre?

I'm quite interested in what you have to say about this. :)

[Buried Treasure]

It's a little tricky arguing against the Blackfyre theory in general because there are so many variants and some of the theories contradict bits of the others but roughly:

-I've fairly often seen it suggested that Varys and Serra are Blackfyre siblings. That obviously does not match with Varys being purchased specifically for his manhood from the mummers that raised him.

- So I said I believe Illyrio married a cousin of the Prince of Pentos because like Varys' story it is an oddly specific tale to make up. Tyrion doesn't learn anything he needs to know from it except that Illyrio rose very high. He said that his second marriage to a slave barred him from the palace. If Serra had never been a slave but secretly a Blackfyre and Illyrio is telling this story to hide her origins it is a bad lie - the court of a Prince is too public and it would be too easy for anyone investigating to find that the tale of Illyrio's two wives is false - a better lie would have his dead wife as an ordinary woman without a distinguishing backstory.

- If Serra were a recognised noblewoman briefly taken by slavers and sold at a price befitting her rank and not a 'common bedslave' then the story of his being barred from the palace after marrying her still does not make sense; as a Blackfyre she is a scion of a famous house with royal blood. Nevermind that if a lady of verified Blackfyre lineage were taken prisoner by slavers their first logical demand would probably be to send a demand for a large ransom to the Golden Company.

- If we believe Serra is just one of the many golden-haired slaves from Lys Illyrio's story of being barred from the palace does make sense. He buys her, falls in love and marries her; slavery doesn't officially exist in Pentos but in that case Serra is just a lowborn whore and either way not worthy of mingling with the exalted people in the palace. Maybe she tells him that her slave-mother told her a story that they are actually descended from the Blackfyres (or somesuch tale), but every third peasant in Westeros has a tale of being descended from some king- I don't think Aegon counts as being a Blackfyre if his drop of Blackfyre blood is on the same level as the gaoler Rennifer Longwater's drop of Targaryen blood.

None of these objections are as much a barrier as my objections to, say, R+L=Edric Dayne (ie, parents dont die years before the child is born, it's impossible). Somebody that fervently believes Aegon is a Blackfyre and think he might be Serra's son would be able to suggest scenarios that overcome these objections. But when I consider what we have been told of these individuals' backstorys and ask 'does that make me more or less likely to consider Aegon might be a Blackfyre?' I say less.

[History of Westeros]

Was it Tyrion he told? I was looking for the quote in Ned's dungeon chapters and obviously could not find it. Could you remind me when they talked about it?

Would he know the dreams were true? You used Moqorro as an example of somebody who gets useful knowledge from his visions but he is trained in magic use - amatuer prophets (and even some of the professional ones) suck at the interpretation gig.

Looks like Tyrion 9, in aCoK.

I tend to believe Varys too in the matter of the ritual, but I I gotta leave room for the chance that he's lying about that, even. It could be a way to keep Tyrion off the trail with regards to other details on his background, shrug.

The point about no training is good, but if his dreams keep coming true over and over, wouldn't that be proof enough? Jojen might not have had any training either, he just sees the future (distorted versions of it, anyway). Varys is much older and quite intelligent. Perhaps he's learned to take his dreams with a grain of salt. Even if he hates magic it would be really hard to ignore dreams that come true. To me that would seem about as hard as ignoring your sense of smell. :)

[History of Westeros]

I don't want this to turn into a Blackfyre thread, but I think one of the best pieces of evidence that he is some sort of royal bastard is his treatment of other royal bastards. There is essentially ZERO tangible gain in sending gifts on Robert's behalf to Edric Storm, for example. Getting Gendry an apprenticeship then sending him to the Wall, also anonymously, is pure benevolence. Sending him to the Wall proves that he's not "stashing the heir".

These examples are often cited as reasons that Varys is a "good guy" but I think it's more simple: he has a soft spot for the young ones that become casualties of dynastic struggles (i.e. royal bastards or the like, etc). Because that's exactly what he is. Doesn't have to be Blackfyre, could be Aerion Brightflame. Hell, could be both somehow. Aerion's bastard breeds with one of Daemon's descendants. Perhaps a little over the top, but it's nice to see there are so many possibilities, despite all our digging.

He could be a great example of the collateral damage typical to generation(s)-long conflicts. If his family had protected him when he was young, he wouldn't have been made a eunuch, sold into slavery, forced into prostitution, etc.