Are the Lannisters really that bad? (Spoilers from all 5 books)

[TalalOfDorne]

I agree with all of them except Tyrion and Jaime. Tyrion has been neglected since he was born. He caused the death of his mother, and in the eyes of Tywin has brought mockery to the family through his constant whoring. Who can blame Tyrion for Tysha, he didn't cause her harm and didn't mean to, and he's the best out of the Lannisters.

Jaime well I might be a bit biased but for me he's redeemed himself by saving Brienne and not caring for Joffrey's death and not going to aid Cersei on her trial. Also I think you can see he's changed when he parleys with Blackfish instead of just attacking and destroying Riverrun. And when he goes with Brienne to save Sansa it shows he's changed to a better man as before he wouldn't care for a Stark but now he does.

Well the Tysha thing is arguable, but I just cant bring myself to call him a nice person or anything close to that. I like him by the way but he still is IMO a bad person and I just cant ignore his other actions, and I guess its because I personally cant look past someones bad deeds no matter what good they do later. This is my opinion about Jaime too. The fact that he did push a child just makes me think he is a very bad person.

[butterbumps!]

I'll just try and address the main points of contention and keep it short.

1. I'm glad we agree Robb behaved just like Tywin in so far as he marched to war, rather than rely on the legal system when his father was imprisoned and charged. To anyone who didn't know all the events in KL Ned's arrest was every bit as legal as the Catnapping, and probably more so as it was done by the regent not just a lady. The Starks made no attempt to negotiate either, or request redress. A show of strength was decided upon instead.

No, we are not in agreement. What is so hard to understand about this?

Catlyn arrests Tyrion; Tywin does not just mobilize, but sends out terrorist groups (incognito, I might add) to rape the countryside.

By contrast, Robert is suddenly killed, Jaime attacks Ned in KL, killing his men, Catelyn’s family’s lands are being terrorized by Lannisters, and Ned is arrested; Robb marches to war, but manages not to send terrorists to do his bidding.

How do you not see the difference here? Tyrion’s arrest was not an attack or act of war; Tywin’s response went beyond simply mobilizing a war effort to challenge the charge, but rather he had his merry band terrorize the countryside indiscriminately without the Lannister banner.

By contrast, Robb marched to war (note: not terrorizing lands under anonymous banners) after the sudden death of the king (and keep in mind Jon Arryn had just been poisoned before as well), Ned was personally attacked by Lannisters, his mother’s lands were being attacked by Lannisters, and now Ned was charged for a crime no one in their right mind would believe he was actually guilty of.

Robb was unwilling to negotiate only after Ned was beheaded.

2. Piper, Edmure and Hoster wanted to strike back at the lannisters and pay Gregor back his 'bloody coin' in GoT. Ned then points out killing Gregor's smallfolk and burning his lands is not justice,but vengeance, and refuses to countenance a Tully 'strike' against Tywin. And this request was from Edmure, who is certainly one of the more compassionate lords in the land. Ergo, it is really not just Tywin who contemplates inflicting grievous harm on the smallfolk as a way of striking at their lords. Ned certainly did not think so anyway.

Later we learn Piper and Vance are indeed raiding lannister lands across the Red Fork, as opposed to Dondarrion who is attacking foraging parties. Attacking Tywin's foragers is the only way to deny him supplies. Piper was not going after 'the men' as you claim, he was going after the smallfolk, or at the very least their property.

Robb and Brynden never discuss denying Tywin supplies as you claim either, for the simple reason that Tywin is not being supplied from 900 miles away from Harrenhal. The way to deny him supplies is to attack his foragers and this is what Brynden thinks they should not be doing as it disperses their strength.

When Robb does go west his actions are described by Martyn Rivers as 'paying back the lannisters for the devastation they inflicted on the riverlands.' Excuse me if I don't see this as 'denying Tywin supplies' or just going after the few lannister soldiers left in the west. The purpose was to threaten Tywin's lands, and those of his bannermen and thus force him to go and defend them, hence why in Stannis's camp it was said he (Tywin) hurried west to save lannisport from the 'fury of the northmen.' This means it is the same tactic, in principle, as the raiding and killing Tywin was inflicting on Robb's lands ... Tywin was certainly more brutal about it but the claim it was simple terrorism (not even sure what you mean by this claim) and qualitatively different from everyone else's conduct does not wash.

Robb's men raided the smallfolk (under karstark) and seized their cattle (under the Mormonts) and the gold mines (under the Greatjon). Robb tried to conscript his own mad dog under the name of Balon Greyjoy to sack lannisport and ravage the west. Did Robb really not know what he was going to do when Theon had supposedly told him what the ironborn were like and Robb knew about their previous forays in Robert's days? Yea, right.

I have absolutely no idea where you get the notion that economic destruction and terror are played down as methods of warfare in the books, or that chevauchee is not practiced to its historic extent. No one expresses surprise or incomprehension of Tywin's strategies but on the contrary both Ned and the Blackfish see them as shrewd and calculated plans to force the enemy to dance to Tywin's tune.

First, I have no idea why you keep focusing in on the fact that I said “taking supplies,” as though I was suggesting Robb and his men went out to smallfolk and negotiated over taking supplies over tea or something.

My point is that the historical chevauchee, which included psychological warfare as part of the burn and raze strategy, is more extreme than what we tend to see in the series. My second point is that Tywin goes beyond even the historic chevauchee in his methods by commanding terrorism specifically.

Look at what Robb’s mean pillaged: supplies. This is why I said that Robb’s efforts to this end were supply oriented-- to forage their own materials as well as to deny the Lannister army of them. Of course this serves a double function of threatening Lannister lands. I thought the “threatening” of land went without saying.

But show me exactly where Robb knowingly commanded a team like Gregor’s men or the Mummers to purposely bring cruel and unusual terror to the westerlands. My contention is specifically in THIS difference, which is actually quite significant.

And do you not see a considerable difference between employing terrorists for the sole purpose of causing misery and fear versus allying with the Greyjoys in order to take out the Lannister’s port as part of the war effort?

3. I think there is precious little evidence Tywin's achievements were unsustainable in the long term. He was using the same techniques, apparently, when he was 16 or so and lasted 20 years as a mad king's hand, and preserved and strengthened the power of the lannisters during the WoTFK. I'd argue this point but you've given me nothing to work with, apart from general assertions about the 'macro-level' and horror at the RW bringing down the lannister regime in the south, which is very very far fetched.

I’m somewhat losing sight of your argument. Let me make sure I have this correctly:

From what I gather, you have a positive assessment of Tywin’s abilities. As part of this assessment, you believe he successfully used all of the means available to him, regardless of the morality involved. Regarding the morality of any of these actions, it seems you weigh the efficacy over the question of moral rectitude to determine it was a “good” move on his part. Ergo, if something achieved a “positive” result for House Lannister, then the action in question supports the case for Tywin’s competence and intelligence. As a secondary layer, you don’t believe that Tywin behaves out of the norm of the other lords in Westeros, i.e. nothing Tywin has done has been beyond the normal course of brutality within the story, and as a result I’m being too hard on him. Is this your basic position?

For my part, I truly do not understand what has given you the impression of Tywin as morally justifiable about anything he’s done, as we have numerous mentions across the series that Tywin singularly goes beyond all butchery expectations. People do not do the things he does. Secondly, I don’t understand where you’ve gotten the impression of Tywin as keenly competent or praiseworthy; in Tywin, Martin drew a parody from Machiavelli’s satire, taking the Prince to its logical conclusion to show us how much of a trainwreck this sort of leadership is. The fact that he has Tywin killed in that humiliating fashion while Westeros is the worse for having been “graced” with him shows us a tacit rejection of Tywin’s methods and character, namely, that his way is neither right, nor sustainable. And yes, beyond this, I don’t find Tywin’s moves particularly intelligent or laudable, even on the basis of efficacy alone.

I’m going to write out a resume of all of Tywin’s accomplishments when I have more time. Let’s see exactly how sustainable and intelligent his efforts are.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

For my part, I truly do not understand what has given you the impression of Tywin as morally justifiable about anything he’s done, as we have numerous mentions across the series that Tywin singularly goes beyond all butchery expectations. People do not do the things he does. Secondly, I don’t understand where you’ve gotten the impression of Tywin as keenly competent or praiseworthy; in Tywin, Martin drew a parody from Machiavelli’s satire, taking the Prince to its logical conclusion to show us how much of a trainwreck this sort of leadership is. The fact that he has Tywin killed in that humiliating fashion while Westeros is the worse for having been “graced” with him shows us a tacit rejection of Tywin’s methods and character, namely, that his way is neither right, nor sustainable. And yes, beyond this, I don’t find Tywin’s moves particularly intelligent or laudable, even on the basis of efficacy alone.

I’m going to write out a resume of all of Tywin’s accomplishments when I have more time. Let’s see exactly how sustainable and intelligent his efforts are.

Who mentioned that Tywin goes above what's normal? As readers some people draw such a conclusion but i don't recall anyone is his world saying such a thing. The Prince was never a satire - it showed how a succesful ruler behaves - with it Machiavelli wanted to teach the common people about the way of kings and educate them so that they can understand and improve their condition - that does not change the fact that "the prince" he writes about is a very good ruler. The way Tywin dies shows us very little about his character - Ned died like a confessed traitor with the entire King's Landing cheering, Rob died with his head cut off and a wolf's one sewn in place - does this show us something about their characters?

Tywin was a good ruler - he was not a good man, he was not a honorable man - he was a powerful man that can rule and in the end he would have been a better king than Rob or Ned or most if not all of the good and honorable people. When Jaime notes that there will be no last harvest and thinks how his father will take care he does not think "IF lord Tywin will manage to feed all" but thinks "HOW lord Tywin will manage to feed all" - the man was a born ruler and it would have been much better for the realm if he ruled.

[TheCasualObserver]

I willing to look past Tywin's cruel political savvy simply because Westeros is nothing like the modern world. I still condemn him for his personal life though - his raising of Cersei and Tyrion marks him as a complete bastard which makes his ultimate death so satisfying. Without him or Kevan, House Lannister is in real trouble and I'm certainly not shedding any tears.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

My conclusion is that they really aren't that bad, they all have legitimate and moral motives (except Joffrey).

Some of their actions seem understandable but it's hard to condone them.

Trying to kill a child to cover your own irresponsibility doesn't count in my book as legitimate.

Nothing Cersei does count as legitimate in any moral field except trying to protect her children. But if doing so she threatens the life of thousands, yeah, it's bad. Cersei primary motivation is power and that is already bad because: she is a terrible ruler and she believes she is entitled to kill and maim everyone to achieve her aims.

Tywin has alien principles and sense of family pride that could pass as moral for some. But it's hard to buy any of this. For me his hole life is completely amoral and despicable.

Tyrion knows his family crimes but chooses to stay on their side. Understandable because in part his motivation is Jaime, the only one who really loves him, to be unharmed but it's not moral to support the side who is clearly on the wrong. Later he goes downhill killing Shae and Tywin, raping slaves, etc.

Kevan is nice in a personal level but the fact that he supported all Tywin decisions raises many questions...

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

Some of their actions seem understandable but it's hard to condone them.

Trying to kill a child to cover your own irresponsibility doesn't count in my book as legitimate.

Nothing Cersei does count as legitimate in any moral field except trying to protect her children. But if doing so she threatens the life of thousands, yeah, it's bad. Cersei primary motivation is power and that is already bad because: she is a terrible ruler and she believes she is entitled to kill and maim everyone to achieve her aims.

Tywin has alien principles and sense of family pride that could pass as moral for some. But it's hard to buy any of this. For me his hole life is completely amoral and despicable.

Tyrion knows his family crimes but chooses to stay on their side. Understandable because in part his motivation is Jaime, the only one who really loves him, to be unharmed but it's not moral to support the side who is clearly on the wrong. Later he goes downhill killing Shae and Tywin, raping slaves, etc.

Kevan is nice in a personal level but the fact that he supported all Tywin decisions raises many questions...

Jaime is not the only one who loves Tyrion. Tyrion seems to have been loved by his entire family with the exeption of Tywin and Cersei. His uncles especially Gerion obviously loved him and took care of him and respected him, his aunt loved him and respected him and even stood up to the brother she loved for him, Kevan respected and loved him (before he got convinced Tyrion killed Joffrey). The Lannisters are a big family and Tyrion seemed to never have lacked for love and respect from most of them - the thing is that he wanted the respect and love of Tywin and this he could not get.

[butterbumps!]

Who mentioned that Tywin goes above what's normal? As readers some people draw such a conclusion but i don't recall anyone is his world saying such a thing. The Prince was never a satire - it showed how a succesful ruler behaves - with it Machiavelli wanted to teach the common people about the way of kings and educate them so that they can understand and improve their condition - that does not change the fact that "the prince" he writes about is a very good ruler. The way Tywin dies shows us very little about his character - Ned died like a confessed traitor with the entire King's Landing cheering, Rob died with his head cut off and a wolf's one sewn in place - does this show us something about their characters?

First, are you kidding? You don't believe that Tywin is recognized for being singularly ruthless within the ASOIAF universe? There's numerous mentions to this. I'll include them in my "Tywin resume" so we can put an end to this once and for all.

Also, so The Prince was satire.

The way Tywin died shows us everything about his character. Tywin's goal was to bring glory to the Lannister House and to make his family powerful. The fact that he was killed by the heir to his House who he'd abused for years in the most humiliating way possible shows us how spectacularly he had failed.

Robb and Ned's deaths do indeed show us that the way they operated has no place in a world like this, I'd argue.

Tywin was a good ruler - he was not a good man, he was not a honorable man - he was a powerful man that can rule and in the end he would have been a better king than Rob or Ned or most if not all of the good and honorable people. When Jaime notes that there will be no last harvest and thinks how his father will take care he does not think "IF lord Tywin will manage to feed all" but thinks "HOW lord Tywin will manage to feed all" - the man was a born ruler and it would have been much better for the realm if he ruled.

I disagree with this strongly. Tywin was not a "great" ruler. He may have ruled as Hand for 20 years, but then again so did Jon Arryn (well, 15), and I don't recall Arryn exterminating Houses that merely pissed him off. I'd also go back into that quote and look at Jaime's tone, if I were you, before using that line as indication of Tywin's positives.

[The Great Walrus]

As whole house Lannister isn't really that evil. The only members that qualify as evil are Tywin and Cersei...

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

I disagree with this strongly. Tywin was not a "great" ruler. He may have ruled as Hand for 20 years, but then again so did Jon Arryn (well, 15), and I don't recall Arryn exterminating Houses that merely pissed him off. I'd also go back into that quote and look at Jaime's tone, if I were you, before using that line as indication of Tywin's positives.

So can you quote me a single person - even if he is an enemy of Tywin who calls him anything short of a great ruler? I will quote you 3 for every one you find in the contrary. What about Jaime's tone? He wondered how will Tywin feed the realm and then remembers Tywin is dead - this invokes the feel that without Tywin there will be starvation. Houses that merely pissed him off? You mean openly rebeled against house Lannister with the intention of replacing them? The Starks had such a vassal but being the generous folks they are house Bolton was spared - how is that treating them?

[butterbumps!]

So can you quote me a single person - even if he is an enemy of Tywin who calls him anything short of a great ruler? I will quote you 3 for every one you find in the contrary. What about Jaime's tone? He wondered how will Tywin feed the realm and then remembers Tywin is dead - this invokes the feel that without Tywin there will be starvation. Houses that merely pissed him off? You mean openly rebeled against house Lannister with the intention of replacing them? The Starks had such a vassal but being the generous folks they are house Bolton was spared - how is that treating them?

“There is where you’re wrong,” Myles Toyne had replied. “Lord Tywin would not have bothered

with a search. He would have burned that town and every living creature in it. Men and boys, babes at

the breast, noble knights and holy septons, pigs and whores, rats and rebels, he would have burned

them all. When the fires guttered out and only ash and cinders remained, he would have sent his men in

to find the bones of Robert Baratheon. Later, when Stark and Tully turned up with their host, he would

have offered pardons to the both of them, and they would have accepted and turned for home with

their tails between their legs.”

He was not wrong, Jon Connington reflected, leaning on the battlements of his forebears. I

wanted the glory of slaying Robert in single combat, and I did not want the name of butcher.

Further to this, You do realize that Tywin hides like a coward behind his minions because he, too, knows his methods are extreme, but doesn't want the name of butcher either. He says he "hates the word 'plotting,'" and is extremely careful to not take credit for things like the rape/ bashing of Elia and the babies because these are things Westerosi generally frown upon.

[King Aerys the Just]

Tywin was a good ruler - he was not a good man, he was not a honorable man - he was a powerful man that can rule and in the end he would have been a better king than Rob or Ned or most if not all of the good and honorable people. When Jaime notes that there will be no last harvest and thinks how his father will take care he does not think "IF lord Tywin will manage to feed all" but thinks "HOW lord Tywin will manage to feed all" - the man was a born ruler and it would have been much better for the realm if he ruled.

Ned seems to have ruled the North well enough. Both that and the Westerlands are easily large and independent enough to be compared to actual kingdoms, so ruling Westeros itself should be the same in concept. Just larger.

[Sansa_Stark]

Just ignore lordillidan. He's just going to side with Lannister no matter what you post. He straight up ignores every point that proves him wrong

[The Great Walrus]

First, are you kidding? You don't believe that Tywin is recognized for being singularly ruthless within the ASOIAF universe? There's numerous mentions to this. I'll include them in my "Tywin resume" so we can put an end to this once and for all.

Also, so The Prince was satire.

The way Tywin died shows us everything about his character. Tywin's goal was to bring glory to the Lannister House and to make his family powerful. The fact that he was killed by the heir to his House who he'd abused for years in the most humiliating way possible shows us how spectacularly he had failed.

Robb and Ned's deaths do indeed show us that the way they operated has no place in a world like this, I'd argue.

I disagree with this strongly. Tywin was not a "great" ruler. He may have ruled as Hand for 20 years, but then again so did Jon Arryn (well, 15), and I don't recall Arryn exterminating Houses that merely pissed him off. I'd also go back into that quote and look at Jaime's tone, if I were you, before using that line as indication of Tywin's positives.

Aye, the only reason so many characters speak of his "greatness" is because Tywin happens to have a very good propaganda campaign going for him...

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

Just ignore lordillidan. He's just going to side with Lannister no matter what you post. He straight up ignores every point that proves him wrong

My friend for someone who claims to be ignoring me for quite some time you respond to me fairly often - do as you suggest and stop reading my posts i believe this forum will be more enjoyable for you.

[Direwolfsigil]

well he DID mention bran getting pushed out the window, nevermind.

[The Great Walrus]

My friend for someone who claims to be ignoring me for quite some time you respond to me fairly often - do as you suggest and stop reading my posts i believe this forum will be more enjoyable for you.

Funny how you don't even try to prove him wrong in any way...

[Sansa_Stark]

My friend for someone who claims to be ignoring me for quite some time you respond to me fairly often - do as you suggest and stop reading my posts i believe this forum will be more enjoyable for you.

I would love to in all honesty but sometimes I enjoy taking the bait on purpose

[The Great Walrus]

While i can see it, The op forgets the first and possibly the most vile act the lannisters commit for the reader, the pushing a 9 year old boy out of a window intending for him to die because he saw them well. ya know.

Although we need to remember the other Lannisters like Devan and Kevin who seem like decent human beings...

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

Further to this, You do realize that Tywin hides like a coward behind his minions because he, too, knows his methods are extreme, but doesn't want the name of butcher either. He says he "hates the word 'plotting,'" and is extremely careful to not take credit for things like the rape/ bashing of Elia and the babies because these are things Westerosi generally frown upon.

The name of butcher does not make him a bad ruler - Scipio destroyed Cartage with great brutality and even there are legends he salted the earth - the Romans honored him as one of their greatest leaders.

[Direwolfsigil]

Although we need to remember the other Lannisters like Devan and Kevin who seem like decent human beings...

im wrong, he did mention it, i ninjad myself :D.