Are the Lannisters really that bad? (Spoilers from all 5 books)

[The Great Walrus]

The name of butcher does not make him a bad ruler - Scipio destroyed Cartage with great brutality and even there are legends he salted the earth - the Romans honored him as one of their greatest leaders.

This merely proves that history is written by the victors, not that Tywin was a good ruler...

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

Funny how you don't even try to prove him wrong in any way...

I have tried and in the end i gave up. Feel free to search my history and find a single post of mine where i ignored the opinions of other people as he claimed. For him it seems that defending the Lannisters is "trolling" because obviously liking them is impossible - i like powerful characters and they fit the bill - i argue in their defence - that's pretty much it.

[butterbumps!]

The name of butcher does not make him a bad ruler - Scipio destroyed Cartage with great brutality and even there are legends he salted the earth - the Romans honored him as one of their greatest leaders.

you asked me two different things: to show that Tywin's brutality is beyond the reasonable expected norm of Westeros, as well as evidence of his leadership.

I provided a quote showing that he is singularly known as a butcher.

The fact that he's never won a battle (and no, he hasn't by his own deviced unless you count the dummy army under Roose that was a legit feint, go look it up), the fact that his self-implosion leaving all his goals left unfulfilled and House ruined, not to mention the atrocious state of the continent, shows us he's not a fantastic leader. Outside of Pycelle, no one thinks he is either.

So, anyway, you owe me 3 "Tywin is an excellent leader" quotes now, and they can't all come from Pycelle.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

This merely proves that history is written by the victors, not that Tywin was a good ruler...

The comparison to Scipio was not meant to show that he was a good leader but to show how someone with the reputation of "butcher" can be succesful as you quoted Connington's "butcher" line as proof of him being bad ruler.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

you asked me two different things: to show that Tywin's brutality is beyond the reasonable expected norm of Westeros, as well as evidence of his leadership.

I provided a quote showing that he is singularly known as a butcher.

The fact that he's never won a battle (and no, he hasn't by his own deviced unless you count the dummy army under Roose that was a legit feint, go look it up), the fact that his self-implosion leaving all his goals left unfulfilled and House ruined, not to mention the atrocious state of the continent, shows us he's not a fantastic leader. Outside of Pycelle, no one thinks he is either.

So, anyway, you owe me 3 "Tywin is an excellent leader" quotes now, and they can't all come from Pycelle.

To be fair you did not show me a quote but your own interpretation (he never lost a battle either - he just never fought Rob) but ok here are 3.

Tywin seems a hard man to you, but he's no harder than he's had to be. Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed his gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his own mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place. Just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years and all it earned him was a mad king's envy. Instead of the honor he deserved, he was made to suffer slights beyond count, yet he gave the Seven Kingdoms peace, plenty and justice. He is a just man.

“How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became... but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little."She gave a sigh. "Who will protect us now?"

“There is where you’re wrong,” Myles Toyne had replied. “Lord Tywin would not have bothered with a search. He would have burned that town and every living creature in it. Men and boys, babes at the breast, noble knights and holy septons, pigs and whores, rats and rebels, he would have burned them all. When the fires guttered out and only ash and cinders remained, he would have sent his men in to find the bones of Robert Baratheon. Later, when Stark and Tully turned up with their host, he would have offered pardons to the both of them, and they would have accepted and turned for home with their tails between their legs.”

Edit: While he was alive his house was at the peak of it's power - Tywin was the true ruler and even with the supperior forces of Tyrell all that Mace could do was smile and nod while Tywin ruled. Also since the books are not over yet we cannot comment of how the things will end for house Lannister - it's yet to be seen.

[Direwolfsigil]

He is a just man.

He was definitely a just man during the Tysha incident,

what man wouldnt do that to his son?

[butterbumps!]

Tywin seems a hard man to you, but he's no harder than he's had to be. Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed his gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his own mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place. Just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years and all it earned him was a mad king's envy. Instead of the honor he deserved, he was made to suffer slights beyond count, yet he gave the Seven Kingdoms peace, plenty and justice. He is a just man.

“How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became... but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little."She gave a sigh. "Who will protect us now?"

LOL. Your "evidence" of his good leadership comes from 2 Lannisters, one of whom (Kevan) is apologizing for Tywin's early brutality and abuse toward his father's mistress. I honestly thought you'd find quote from people without a direct interest in bolstering the Lannister agenda.

“There is where you’re wrong,” Myles Toyne had replied. “Lord Tywin would not have bothered with a search. He would have burned that town and every living creature in it. Men and boys, babes at the breast, noble knights and holy septons, pigs and whores, rats and rebels, he would have burned them all. When the fires guttered out and only ash and cinders remained, he would have sent his men in to find the bones of Robert Baratheon. Later, when Stark and Tully turned up with their host, he would have offered pardons to the both of them, and they would have accepted and turned for home with their tails between their legs.”

It's absolutely rich that you provide the quote I'd just given you as evidence of Tywin's leadership as part of your 3. This quote is absolutely not suggesting that Myles approves of Tywin's tactics or considers him a good ruler from this.

You talked a big game with your "I'll give you 3 quotes for every one of yours," so, try harder.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

“There is where you’re wrong,” Myles Toyne had replied. “Lord Tywin would not have bothered with a search. He would have burned that town and every living creature in it. Men and boys, babes at the breast, noble knights and holy septons, pigs and whores, rats and rebels, he would have burned them all. When the fires guttered out and only ash and cinders remained, he would have sent his men in to find the bones of Robert Baratheon. Later, when Stark and Tully turned up with their host, he would have offered pardons to the both of them, and they would have accepted and turned for home with their tails between their legs.”

I fear using this as evidence of what an excellent leader Tywin was tells us more about yourself than it does about Tywin.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

LOL. Your "evidence" of his good leadership comes from 2 Lannisters, one of whom (Kevan) is apologizing for Tywin's early brutality and abuse toward his father's mistress. I honestly thought you'd find quote from people without a direct interest in bolstering the Lannister agenda.

It's absolutely rich that you provide the quote I'd just given you as evidence of Tywin's leadership as part of your 3. This quote is absolutely not suggesting that Myles approves of Tywin's tactics or considers him a good ruler from this.

You talked a big game with your "I'll give you 3 quotes for every one of yours," so, try harder.

The first quote comes by Kevan - he is a man who has been with Tywin on every step and knows him better than anyone - it's GRRM's way of showing us how the Lannisters saw Tywin.

The second comes from Genna who obviously thinks it's his leadership and power that kept the family safe.

The third comes from the leader of the golden company when Connington tells him "Even Tywin Lannister could not have done better" - obviously implying that Tywin was the mark for great leadership and he thinks that at the battle of the bells he did as good as him to which he is told that Tywin would have done better - it does not show that Tywin is a good man - it shows that Tywin is a good ruler - if Aeris had him the war would have ended on the spot and how many lives would have been saved because of that act of brutality?

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

I fear using this as evidence of what an excellent leader Tywin was tells us more about yourself than it does about Tywin.

Perhaps i does. Is it good to kill 1000 innocent people in order to save 50 000? Many people would not be able to make that decision - the person who can is a good ruler for me.

[butterbumps!]

The first quote comes by Kevan - he is a man who has been with Tywin on every step and knows him better than anyone - it's GRRM's way of showing us how the Lannisters saw Tywin.

It shows us that Kevan is nearly just as awful as Tywin.

And what is that quote saying, really? It's apologizing for Tywin's enormities that were done for the sake of saving face.

The second comes from Genna who obviously thinks it's his leadership and power that kept the family safe.

And in this very quote she says she disagrees with the way he went about doing the things he did and that she grew to actually dislike the man, but has an appreciation for his protecting their family.

My point is that it's ridiculous to use LANNISTER quotes to support the case for Tywin's being the great leader you believe him to be, because LANNISTERS have a highly biased perspective toward him. And even then, with the exception of Kevan, his family members actually disapprove of his actions, as per the quote YOU provided!

The third comes from the leader of the golden company when Connington tells him "Even Tywin Lannister could not have done better" - obviously implying that Tywin was the mark for great leadership and he thinks that at the battle of the bells he did as good as him to which he is told that Tywin would have done better - it does not show that Tywin is a good man - it shows that Tywin is a good ruler - if Aeris had him the war would have ended on the spot and how many lives would have been saved because of that act of brutality?

I love the way you don't go find all those quotes that allegedly exist about how awesome a leader Tywin is, but try to hold your ground on these 3 ridiculous ones. No, it's not saying that Tywin would have been a good ruler. That's a preposterous reading.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

It shows us that Kevan is nearly just as awful as Tywin.

And what is that quote saying, really? It's apologizing for Tywin's enormities that were done for the sake of saving face.

And in this very quote she says she disagrees with the way he went about doing the things he did and that she grew to actually dislike the man, but has an appreciation for his protecting their family.

My point is that it's ridiculous to use LANNISTER quotes to support the case for Tywin's being the great leader you believe him to be, because LANNISTERS have a highly biased perspective toward him. And even then, with the exception of Kevan, his family members actually disapprove of his actions, as per the quote YOU provided!

I love the way you don't go find all those quotes that allegedly exist about how awesome a leader Tywin is, but try to hold your ground on these 3 ridiculous ones. No, it's not saying that Tywin would have been a good ruler. That's a preposterous reading.

I have served six kings, but here before us lies the greatest man I ever knew. Lord Tywin wore no crown, yet he was all a king

Tywin's ability came to attention of King Aerys II Targaryen, who impressed with the young and capable heir to Casterly Rock appointed Tywin, who was twenty at that time, to be his Hand of the King. Tywin proved himself a brilliant administrator and held the post for twenty years of peace and plenty. That people "joked" it was he and not the king who really ruled the land. - wiki

And i would like to remind you that you did not show me a single quote that calls Tywin a bad ruler.

Edit: Tywin is never mentioned by almost any of the POV - the only ones who talk about him are the Lannisters so it's strange to demand quotes not said by Lannister - apart from Rob talking about Tywin's forces who else non-Lannister has spoken of him?

Edit2: Ned spoke of him once mentioning he would rather trust a child to vipers than to Tywin - not mentiong his political skill.

[UVA]

The third comes from the leader of the golden company when Connington tells him "Even Tywin Lannister could not have done better" - obviously implying that Tywin was the mark for great leadership and he thinks that at the battle of the bells he did as good as him to which he is told that Tywin would have done better - it does not show that Tywin is a good man - it shows that Tywin is a good ruler - if Aeris had him the war would have ended on the spot and how many lives would have been saved because of that act of brutality?

What? Where do you get this from? The whole point of the exchange between Connington and Toyne is that Connington's tactics weren't brutal enough at Stoney Sept. Here Tywin is held up as a standard of brutality by Toyne. Connington agrees and ruminates that had he been more Tywin-like, committing war crimes, he would've won a victory at SS, but he didn't because he didn't want the name of 'butcher'. It's certainly not implied that Connington lost because he wasn't a great as a leader as Tywin.

[mcb]

Hear me out on this (sorry if this has been posted already).

So, you're a Lannister and you're minding your own business.

Yeah... wouldn't that be nice? Bran isn't pushed and doesn't break his spine, Joffrey doesn't get his ass handed to him by Arya and Nymeria, therefore Lady doesn't lose her head, Cersei doesn't enlist Lancel to get Robert killed...

Then, all of the sudden, the Starks kidnap one of you and hold him hostage.

What an unprovoked move. I mean, back then the Lannisters had tried to murder Brandon Stark only twice.

[butterbumps!]

I have served six kings, but here before us lies the greatest man I ever knew. Lord Tywin wore no crown, yet he was all a king

Tywin's ability came to attention of King Aerys II Targaryen, who impressed with the young and capable heir to Casterly Rock appointed Tywin, who was twenty at that time, to be his Hand of the King. Tywin proved himself a brilliant administrator and held the post for twenty years of peace and plenty. That people "joked" it was he and not the king who really ruled the land. - wiki

Said by Pycelle, who is a fucking LANNISTER crony, ffs. Again, the same Lannister bias I mentioned above, and I specifically started this off by acknowledging Pycelle loves Tywin nearly as much as you do.

And i would like to remind you that you did not show me a single quote that calls Tywin a bad ruler.

The story-- Tywin's arc, itself-- shows us that Tywin was not a great ruler. Quotes aren't needed to show what an abject failure Tywin is.

Edit: Tywin is never mentioned by almost any of the POV - the only ones who talk about him are the Lannisters so it's strange to demand quotes not said by Lannister - apart from Rob talking about Tywin's forces who else non-Lannister has spoken of him?

Edit2: Ned spoke of him once mentioning he would rather trust a child to vipers than to Tywin - not mentiong his political skill.

You were the one contesting that people respected Tywin and thought he was a good ruler in universe, which is why quotes were brought up. In order to support your claim that Tywin was seen as a great leader in universe, you have to give us quotes in which sundry characters (not all part of the Lannister household) believe Tywin is truly as great a leader as you are suggesting. That you acknowledge these quotes do not exist outside of the Lannister family proves my point.

You also contended that Tywin's methods were not beyond the norms of Westeros. This is what I provided you with, and I have ample more if continuing this pointless is really needed.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

What? Where do you get this from? The whole point of the exchange between Connington and Toyne is that Connington's tactics weren't brutal enough at Stoney Sept. Here Tywin is held up as a standard of brutality by Toyne. Connington agrees and ruminates that had he been more Tywin-like, committing war crimes, he would've won a victory at SS, but he didn't because he didn't want the name of 'butcher'. It's certainly not implied that Connington lost because he wasn't a great as a leader as Tywin.

"Even Tywin Lannister could not have done better" each person could read it differently but to me it looked like Connigton was defending himself by saying "no one could have done better than i did but still we lose" and the fact the uses Tywin implies he was the best - ofcource everyone read book differently so you could have saw it some other way - there is no right way to read a book.

[David Selig]

Yeah... wouldn't that be nice? Bran isn't pushed and doesn't break his spine, Joffrey doesn't get his ass handed to him by Arya and Nymeria, therefore Lady doesn't lose her head, Cersei doesn't enlist Lancel to get Robert killed...

What an unprovoked move. I mean, back then the Lannisters had tried to murder Brandon Stark only twice.

Total ownage.

[The Great Walrus]

Total ownage.

Their's something beautiful about seeing someones argument being completely obliterated...

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

You were the one contesting that people respected Tywin and thought he was a good ruler in universe, which is why quotes were brought up. In order to support your claim that Tywin was seen as a great leader in universe, you have to give us quotes in which sundry characters (not all part of the Lannister household) believe Tywin is truly as great a leader as you are suggesting. That you acknowledge these quotes do not exist outside of the Lannister family proves my point.

No character in the books is complimented from outside of him household and sworn men.

Lord Tywin had never taken a ward before. Lysa ought to have been honored. The Lannisters are a great and noble House.

He would try to hold every inch of his soil, to defend every man, woman, and child who named him lord, and Tywin Lannister was shrewd enough to know that. - Ned Stark

Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion. - Ned Stark

but Galbart Glover says Lord Tywin is too smart for that, and Roose Bolton agrees.

but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won’t be so easily surprised. - Rob Stark

The northerners would be exhausted after their long sleepless march. Tyrion wondered what the boy had been thinking. Did he think to take them unawares while they slept? Small chance of that; whatever else might be said of him, Tywin Lannister was no man’s fool.

All of these from AGOT.

[Direwolfsigil]

No character in the books is complimented from outside of him household and sworn men.

these ridiculous absolutes keep putting you back in the hole.