Are the Lannisters really that bad? (Spoilers from all 5 books)

[Sansa_Stark]

jaime got his hand cut off and after that he changed and hes on his way to becoming a better person.

Kevan stood by him BECAUSE he was afraid. he didnt have the courage to speak up against tywin and nor did he have the courage to do anything about it. he would be a bad person if he condoned those things but we know from his point of view that he didnt. Varys said that kevan was doing well and he was slowly making things right for the realm again which is why he was killed. he was a coward but that doesnt make him as horrible as tywin

neither Gerion or Tygett stood by Tywin's side. Both went or ignored Tywin.

[LuisDantas]

Tyrion is mostly ok, as are Lancel and Kevan.

There is hope for Jaime still. Not a large amount, but some.

But Cersei? Tywin? Yes, they definitely are that bad.

[The Storm King]

neither Gerion or Tygett stood by Tywin's side. Both went or ignored Tywin.

well then they werent cowards. kevan was.

[Arya4queen]

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=TbwroS0YP54&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DTbwroS0YP54

[butterbumps!]

BtC, in general, I'm amazed that you are defending Tywin's particular actions in the ways that you are.

Tywin definitely does not think Ned is set out to kill him. It's an issue of Tywin's not wanting to turn any influence over to another House. It's about ambition for Tywin. To spin this into self-defense is preposterous. Tywin thinks Ned's a trusting old fool, and scorns his lack of ambition. Tywin simply doesn't want Robert to listen to his Hand more than his wife. And in the event Tywin is paranoid that Ned would punish him for the slaughter in years past: he deserved that.

In any case, Lannister loyalty to the throne was hardly dubious since they married it, and appeared to have decisively burnt their bridges with the old government. Jon Arryn recognized this and worked with them, giving Tywin a massive stake in the government for his late intervention. Tywin's actions seem to have turned out to be very politically sound given that.

Neither went to court for their own good reasons. Cat needed to contact Lysa first and prove something before the lannisters could try and shut down proceedings owing to their influence over the king, and Tywin felt it both beneath the dignity of the lannisters, and probably dangerous, to go begging to Ned Stark for justice when they were being accused.

It is not like Robb hurried down to king's landing and asked Joff if the charges against his father could be substantiated either when Ned was arrested. He went with his army.

Moreover, for all Tywin knew, his arrival in king's landing could presage his own arrest, for which there was some unhappy precedent.

Huh. So if Tywin felt that Lannister loyalty was hardly dubious, then it wouldn't have been "dangerous" to go seek the king's justice. Can't have that both ways.

But the second point, that it's "beneath the dignity of the Lannisters" to go seek the king's justice that the crux of the matter, isn't it? Are you seriously using Tywin's swollen head as justification for why he "couldn't" go to the court like a decent human being? So, because Tywin thinks he doesn't have to answer to anyone, he is thereby given a reprieve for being a baby about this?

Further, at what point does spending Gregor into the Riverlands with the sole purpose of being a terrorist become the reasonable and inevitable response to this barring an appearance in court?

I'm not saying either were necessarily 'right' in a moral sense to do this, rather that their reactions owe more to the dynamic between all the great houses and the legal system than anything peculiar to Tywin Lannister.

No, Tywin's reactions to things great and small are pretty unique to Tywin Lannister.

Wrong. Your minatory pronouncements would have more weight if you knew about medieval warfare (no offence).

They are not burning and razing to deny the enemy supplies (although they are foraging for themselves) but to devastate the enemy economy (fields, houses ... even smallfolk) and thus shame their lords into marching out to protect them and give battle on Tywin's terms. That is normal. It is the norm in most 'middle age' warfare and it is the norm in westeros. Btw, denying a whole army supplies in their lands seems to necessarily entail starving their smallfolk unless their men's supply routes are right next to you (common sense this one).

Your minatory points would hold more weight if you understood that Martin's world isn't a 1-1 correlation to our own history of warfare, and there's actually a different norm set up in the series, no offense. What Tywin does not the norm.

Gregor, Lorch and the rest of the crazy gang are especially nasty by most people's standards yea (and yes, used for that reason), but their employment does serve essentially the same military function Robb's campaign in the westerlands fulfilled. Threaten the enemy's lands and populace and force him to dance your dance. That they are really vile heightens the shame and zeal of the lords to whom they are opposed to go and face them. I am confused really about why you think 'terror' tactics aren't 'calculated.' They are. Again, I know it is cruel and it is evil (although in a world where you should go to a sept to be good given the nature of warfare). See in the comments of the Blackfish in early CoK. He's sickened by the slaughter but he recognizes these things as rational military actions.

No, see, Tywin's use of Gregor and the Mummers are not the same as what the other leaders employ. Tywin specifically employs them as terrorists. Where rape and pillage are secondary byproducts of razing and burning in the other armies, Tywin employs these bands specifically to rape, kill and terrify. That's why he's so reluctant to give them up.

Also, I'm not sure where I disagreed that Tywin's moves aren't calculated. You keep bringing that up, but I'm not sure what your point is.

I don't recall the idea Tywin relied on Gregor too much, rather the comment was he was evidently milking him for all he was worth in a short space of time. This was to do with the impending arrival of the Dornish.

Tyrion and Tywin discuss getting rid of Clegane several times, and Tywin always comes up with some excuse not to turn him over. Here is a passage where Tywin had agreed to turn him over, but between conversations decides he wants to keep the man after all:

“Not to . . . ?” Tyrion was shocked. “I thought we were agreed that the woods were full of beasts.”

“Lesser beasts.” Lord Tywin’s fingers laced together under his chin. “Ser Gregor has served us well. No other knight in the realm inspires such terror in our enemies.”

“Oberyn knows that Gregor was the one who . . .”

“He knows nothing. He has heard tales. Stable gossip and kitchen calumnies. He has no crumb of proof. Ser Gregor is certainly not about to confess to him. I mean to keep him well away for so long as the Dornishmen are in King’s Landing.”

No, he is very competent. Pretty much all of his major decisions are sound moves to secure the power and standing of his house. He is leagues away from Cersei in the political competence department.

No, they are decisions that produce immediate rewards with self-defeating results in the long term. When Jaime stands vigil after Tywin's death, he muses that Tywin's real legacy is nothing more than the "feast for crows" that has befallen Westeros: "Every crow in the Seven Kingdoms should pay homage to you, Father. From Castamere to the Blackwater, you fed them well." Tywin's decisions ruined his House, left no legacy, and earned nothing of the respect he so desperately craved. His "eulogies" consist of jokes about shitting.

Tywin's pride prevented him from reasonably dealing with the Catnapping. His pride prevented him from actually making peace with Dorne. His pride blinded him to the piece of shit that is LF, raising the pissant to Harrenhal, which facilitated the fall of his House more spectacularly. His pride got in the way of his estimation of Robb, and outmaneuvered in the field, he resorted to the unclever, unsustainable atrocity of the RW, where, like always, he hid like a coward behind his even more unscrupulous minions.

I agree with most of what you say about another political operator, Littlefinger, actually, but you are badly wrong about Tywin.

I have no idea what parts of the series have given you the impression of Tywin as competent and intelligent as you believe.

[KOM]

can OP address Tywin/Tysha incident?

And then Tywin/Mountain tactics that involve slaughtering smallfolk to foment war?

[RenlyIsNotRight]

The Lannisters, with the exception of Tyrion, definitely started out the series looking to be the flat out villains. I still hold that Tywin and Cersei have very little to no redeeming qualities at all, but as the series went on and some of the more truly evil houses like Bolton and Frey began to take the spotlight, suddenly the Lannisters seemed to become eclipsed by them. Add that to the redemption arc (or perhaps just our increased understanding of) Jaime Lannister, and the introduction of some of the siblings and cousins like Kevan, Genna, Daven, all of whom are fundamentally decent if flawed people, and I must say much of my initial hostility towards House Lannister has definitely died out...

...except for the matter of Tyrion. Ironically I've grown to like him less and less as the series goes on. As ADWD I would consider him one of my disliked characters, where at one point he was if not one of my favorites close to it. So I always found that development interesting.

[A Man Has Said]

I think Tywin comes in for the worst condemnation in the conversation he has with Tyrion after the Red Wedding. Not only does he admit that he orchestrated the RW, but they talk about Gregor killing and raping Elia Martell while covered in the blood of her son that he'd just killed.

"Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape. . .even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope."

So while acknowledging that he's responsible, he still tries to deny full responsibility, while scheming to sacrifice another of his murdering henchmen (Amory Lorch) to Oberyn Martell to save what he now knows full well that he has in Gregor Clegane. He's still deploying Gregor on missions of plunder, mass murder and of course rape in his terror campaign of the riverlands. It might just be that there are worse characters in the books, but coming a close second to Ramsey Bolton is still pretty bad.

It takes a special kind of psychotic to simultaneously admit to something while denying it and trying to cover it up.

[A Man Has Said]

Oh, and could I mention the hypocrisy of his wanting to hang whatever whore Tyrion is sleeping with, then ending up sleeping with Shae himself? Not that it wouldn't be hard to assemble a rap sheet of worse crimes.

[Sansa_Stark]

He ordered Gregor to do what he did to Elia.

The great mastermind Tywin Lannister, who had weeks to travel to King's Landing forgot all about Elia?

He did not think about her once? The woman who "took" being a queen from his daughter?

[Fire and Lemoncakes]

No, they are decisions that produce immediate rewards with self-defeating results in the long term. When Jaime stands vigil after Tywin's death, he muses that Tywin's real legacy is nothing more than the "feast for crows" that has befallen Westeros: "Every crow in the Seven Kingdoms should pay homage to you, Father. From Castamere to the Blackwater, you fed them well." Tywin's decisions ruined his House, left no legacy, and earned nothing of the respect he so desperately craved. His "eulogies" consist of jokes about shitting.

I disagree. Tywin was brought down because his son stooped even lower than himself by resorting to kinslaying. Sure, the awful father-son relationship is for a good part his own doing but all of Tywin's children are adults whose conflicts between each other are simply beyond his control. Also that Tywin's actions aren't effective long term is simply not true. The butcher's work of King's Landing put him in Robert's favour for 15 years.

Tywin's pride prevented him from reasonably dealing with the Catnapping. His pride prevented him from actually making peace with Dorne. His pride blinded him to the piece of shit that is LF, raising the pissant to Harrenhal, which facilitated the fall of his House more spectacularly. His pride got in the way of his estimation of Robb, and outmaneuvered in the field, he resorted to the unclever, unsustainable atrocity of the RW, where, like always, he hid like a coward behind his even more unscrupulous minions.

Catnapping: What is the point of going to court when you can expect no justice. Robert would never move directly against Ned. I just can't see how Tywin could possibly perceive the reasons behind Tyrion's abduction correctly. Also he can't really expect Ned to be as idealistic, short-sighted and delusional as he is after 15 years as lord. There were no social calls at Casterly Rock to keep Tywin updated. Even Varys seems troubled to fully grasp Ned in the Arya eavesdropping scene. A man upholding duty, justice and honour devoted to a lazy drunkard with a fondness for infanticide is a rare find.

Dorne: Not gonna happen with the Dornish Targ restoration plans anyway.

LF: Wasn't Harrenhal Tyrion's reward for brokering the Joff-Marge marriage?

Robb: Huh, Tywin understood Robb perfectly in everything but military tactics. Whether Bolton is in control or the North is in anarchy doesn't effect Tywin's hold on the throne much.

[butterbumps!]

I disagree. Tywin was brought down because his son stooped even lower than himself by resorting to kinslaying. Sure, the awful father-son relationship is for a good part his own doing but all of Tywin's children are adults whose conflicts between each other are simply beyond his control.

And why, pray tell, do you think Tyrion put that bolt into his groin? Because Tywin played no part in turning his own children against him?

Also that Tywin's actions aren't effective long term is simply not true. The butcher's work of King's Landing put him in Robert's favour for 15 years.

15 years, and it all turned to ashes in his mouth. It didn't last is the point, and now it's completely destroyed.

Catnapping: What is the point of going to court when you can expect no justice. Robert would never move directly against Ned. I just can't see how Tywin could possibly perceive the reasons behind Tyrion's abduction correctly. Also he can't really expect Ned to be as idealistic, short-sighted and delusional as he is after 15 years as lord. There were no social calls at Casterly Rock to keep Tywin updated. Even Varys seems troubled to fully grasp Ned in the Arya eavesdropping scene. A man upholding duty, justice and honour devoted to a lazy drunkard with a fondness for infanticide is a rare find.

And why on earth would Tywin expect no justice? You just said that his butchery earned him 15 years of success!

Seriously. Even if going to court for justice was not the best option due to some residual threat, the correct response is not to send terrorists into the country to disturb the King's peace. He opened hostilities preemptively, and did so as a terrorist.

Dorne: Not gonna happen with the Dornish Targ restoration plans anyway.

I'm not sure that's their endgame. Even supposing that it is, what do you think compelled them to plot against the Lannisters in the first place?

LF: Wasn't Harrenhal Tyrion's reward for brokering the Joff-Marge marriage?

No, it wasn't. Tywin refuses to listen to Tyrion, who has the measure of what LF is trying to do with Harrenhal, and awards him the castle despite Tyrion's protests.

Robb: Huh, Tywin understood Robb perfectly in everything but military tactics. Whether Bolton is in control or the North is in anarchy doesn't effect Tywin's hold on the throne much.

I'm not sure what point you're making. Tywin is allegedly a military genius according to some and a greenboy of 15 kicked his ass at his own game. I don't understand the anarchy point.

[straits]

I disagree. Tywin was brought down because his son stooped even lower than himself by resorting to kinslaying. Sure, the awful father-son relationship is for a good part his own doing but all of Tywin's children are adults whose conflicts between each other are simply beyond his control. Also that Tywin's actions aren't effective long term is simply not true. The butcher's work of King's Landing put him in Robert's favour for 15 years.

Robert turned a blind eye to that because it was distasteful. He then decided to go along with what was done, which was simple enough, given his hatred of Targaryens. He, and other lords, were aware that actually dragging the kids and Elia to KL would have been just as effective, or more, in bringing Dorne to heel, and throttling the Targ dynasty. Whether or not the kids had to die would have been left for debate.

Catnapping: What is the point of going to court when you can expect no justice. Robert would never move directly against Ned. I just can't see how Tywin could possibly perceive the reasons behind Tyrion's abduction correctly. Also he can't really expect Ned to be as idealistic, short-sighted and delusional as he is after 15 years as lord. There were no social calls at Casterly Rock to keep Tywin updated. Even Varys seems troubled to fully grasp Ned in the Arya eavesdropping scene. A man upholding duty, justice and honour devoted to a lazy drunkard with a fondness for infanticide is a rare find.

Ned's devotion to Robert has nothing to do with the kidnapping case; your mentioning of it only serves to detract from Ned's character in order to stiffen your argument. And justice is an arbitrary term, which happens to be defined by the royal court. So whatever Tywin got served, it would have been within the context of the system he so passionately helped build.

Also:

Seriously. Even if going to court for justice was not the best option due to some residual threat, the correct response is not to send terrorists into the country to disturb the King's peace. He opened hostilities preemptively, and did so as a terrorist.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Yes, the Lannisters are terrible people. Just terrrible. Tywin's horrible, so is Cersei, but I do pity Cersei, as well, Jaime's on his way to redemption and Tyrion is a very grey person. But, they are my favorite family to read about.

Also, Kevan is actually a pretty bad peson, IMO. He may have not been the one commanding Tywin's atrocities, but he did condone and try to justify his actions.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Some Lannisters are bad, Tywin and Cersei to be honest, and Joffrey

Tyrion is good, Jaime became good after the time he spent with Brienne

House Lannister is falling apart and I think Tyrion will be responsible to rebuild the Lannisters power, but in a good way

[MoscQuetier]

Tyrion... let's see. He is (much like stannis) a Man that act like a child in some aspects. He Spects everyone to recognise his actions, even his minimum achievement should be glorified. and why? cause everyone is mean to he and he don't like that. yeah, then I have to add that he is a drunk, he treats womans like... shit. yeaah, lets keep going.

Jaime... The most decent of the "main branch" Lannisters, he have a twisted sence of honour, but he has grow, he has become something between a good knight and gregor, a Grey Knight I would say, He isn't THAT bad.

Cersei... She is nuts, egocentric, she thinks she can play the game, and... yeah, she is meaby the worst mother in the world, cause she uses her sons like weapons to get power. Yeah...

The Kevan line seems to be not that bad... and the others, yeah, almost non development

[Chaircat Meow]

BtC, in general, I'm amazed that you are defending Tywin's particular actions in the ways that you are.

Tywin definitely does not think Ned is set out to kill him. It's an issue of Tywin's not wanting to turn any influence over to another House. It's about ambition for Tywin. To spin this into self-defense is preposterous. Tywin thinks Ned's a trusting old fool, and scorns his lack of ambition. Tywin simply doesn't want Robert to listen to his Hand more than his wife. And in the event Tywin is paranoid that Ned would punish him for the slaughter in years past: he deserved that.

So Tywin acts out of ambition but also out of paranoia. He simply doesn't want to turn over influence but he is also afraid Ned is actually going to punish him? He has no reason to fear arrest if he goes to king's landing but he is fearful Ned will act against him for helping Robert at the end of the rebellion. You can't have it both ways.

Personally I think Tywin assumed Ned, a new hand, had decided to act against him in conjunction with the Tullys and preferred to make a show of strength to secure Tyrion's release than petition KL. He was supposdely the most powerful lord in the realm at this point and the king's father-in-law. Crawling to Ned would have ruined his reputation and the fear in which he was held. Don't really think it was paranoia ...

Huh. So if Tywin felt that Lannister loyalty was hardly dubious, then it wouldn't have been "dangerous" to go seek the king's justice. Can't have that both ways

Well you did.

The point I was making there though was that Ned had no good reason to doubt lannister loyalty to Robert based on the two events you described in your post. If Ned was moving on Tywin because he did (for an irrational reason) want to reduce someone who he thought was disloyal or non-supportive of the crown (which is what you think Tywin thought) then hurrying to KL for justice might have seemed foolish.

But the second point, that it's "beneath the dignity of the Lannisters" to go seek the king's justice that the crux of the matter, isn't it? Are you seriously using Tywin's swollen head as justification for why he "couldn't" go to the court like a decent human being? So, because Tywin thinks he doesn't have to answer to anyone, he is thereby given a reprieve for being a baby about this?

My point was lots of lords act this way. Why was Robb such a baby when Ned was charged with treason? He had no way of knowing it was not true and, in truth, all the Stark suspicions about the lannisters that they acquired in GoT were really untrue owing to the machinations of Littlefinger.

Further, at what point does spending Gregor into the Riverlands with the sole purpose of being a terrorist become the reasonable and inevitable response to this barring an appearance in court?

Who said anything about 'inevitable,' or 'reasonable.'

No, Tywin's reactions to things great and small are pretty unique to Tywin Lannister.

Except they are not.

Your minatory points would hold more weight if you understood that Martin's world isn't a 1-1 correlation to our own history of warfare, and there's actually a different norm set up in the series, no offense. What Tywin does not the norm.

In that case you have to explain why Marq Piper, Ser Edmure and indeed Lord Hoster thought paying back Gregor 'in kind' for his deeds was a justified course of action (meaning do what he did to them) and why Hoster even thought the crown would give this course of action its blessing.

You have to explain why both Ned and later the Blackfish understood Tywin's ravaging strategy as calculated political and military decisions as opposed to unheard of and/or pointless atrocities committed purely out of Tywin's sadistic and genocidal tendencies. You have to explain why Robb's own raiding of the westerlands was calculated to pull Tywin west.

The point about medieval warfare is that it illuminates the author's own statements in the text and knowledge of it prevents you falling into blunders like stating that armies raided each others lands solely to cut off their foes supplies (or that Lord Commander Dumbfuck had a good plan at the end of DwD).

No, see, Tywin's use of Gregor and the Mummers are not the same as what the other leaders employ. Tywin specifically employs them as terrorists. Where rape and pillage are secondary byproducts of razing and burning in the other armies, Tywin employs these bands specifically to rape, kill and terrify. That's why he's so reluctant to give them up.

What! And unleashing your army to burn and raze the countryside and at least kill anyone who resists isn't a terror tactic? What do you think Rickard Karstark would do in the westerlands if some westermen decided they didn't want their holdfast pillaged and burned?

Also, I'm not sure where I disagreed that Tywin's moves aren't calculated. You keep bringing that up, but I'm not sure what your point is.

It was in your response to Groat.

Tyrion and Tywin discuss getting rid of Clegane several times, and Tywin always comes up with some excuse not to turn him over. Here is a passage where Tywin had agreed to turn him over, but between conversations decides he wants to keep the man after all:

“Not to . . . ?” Tyrion was shocked. “I thought we were agreed that the woods were full of beasts.”

“Lesser beasts.” Lord Tywin’s fingers laced together under his chin. “Ser Gregor has served us well. No other knight in the realm inspires such terror in our enemies.”

“Oberyn knows that Gregor was the one who . . .”

“He knows nothing. He has heard tales. Stable gossip and kitchen calumnies. He has no crumb of proof. Ser Gregor is certainly not about to confess to him. I mean to keep him well away for so long as the Dornishmen are in King’s Landing.”

I get he thinks Gregor is good at raiding and killing folk yes. I thought you said people said his use of him as a raider was damaging and being criticized. I assumed he wasn't interested in turning him over to the Martells because he realized it would probably do little good, so why not just try fobbing them off with someone who was already dead.

No, they are decisions that produce immediate rewards with self-defeating results in the long term. When Jaime stands vigil after Tywin's death, he muses that Tywin's real legacy is nothing more than the "feast for crows" that has befallen Westeros: "Every crow in the Seven Kingdoms should pay homage to you, Father. From Castamere to the Blackwater, you fed them well." Tywin's decisions ruined his House, left no legacy, and earned nothing of the respect he so desperately craved. His "eulogies" consist of jokes about shitting.

Tywin's pride prevented him from reasonably dealing with the Catnapping. His pride prevented him from actually making peace with Dorne. His pride blinded him to the piece of shit that is LF, raising the pissant to Harrenhal, which facilitated the fall of his House more spectacularly. His pride got in the way of his estimation of Robb, and outmaneuvered in the field, he resorted to the unclever, unsustainable atrocity of the RW, where, like always, he hid like a coward behind his even more unscrupulous minions.

Yeah, Tywin is vain and prideful.

He was also an enormously successful politician who left his house in position of great strength with all it's foes defeated or quelled. He had a strong alliance with the other most powerful house in the realm, and control over the throne. It is not surprising that on news of his death all his enemies took heart again thinking everything was changed now that Lord Tywin was dead.

The argument that this was achieved at the cost of long term stability does not wash. There is precious little reason to think it reasonable the RW was ever going to lead to the overthrow of lannister power in the south. In the north Tywin was content to give Bolton his chance (and, tbh, success was very far from impossible). The worst that could happen would have been the re-emergence of a weakened Stark kingdom north of the neck with the loss of all its territories in the riverlands. This would have been the situation if Tywin hadn't pulled the RW so he lost very little even if there was a strong backlash. The likeliest outcome was the end of the northern kingdom as an entity, or as a strong and forceful power.

So yea, he was a very competent and successful warlord.

[Fire and Lemoncakes]

And why on earth would Tywin expect no justice? You just said that his butchery earned him 15 years of success!

Seriously. Even if going to court for justice was not the best option due to some residual threat, the correct response is not to send terrorists into the country to disturb the King's peace. He opened hostilities preemptively, and did so as a terrorist.

Because Ned's appearance coupled with LF's manipulations is a complete game changer that ended the dominant Lannister influence. In my book the abduction is the first hostility and you're right that Tywin is a terrorist.

I'm not sure what point you're making. Tywin is allegedly a military genius according to some and a greenboy of 15 kicked his ass at his own game. I don't understand the anarchy point.

I didn't say Tywin is a military genius. I'm talking about the current war in the North between Bolton and other Northern lords. The other effect of the RW is turning Tyrion even more against Tywin. Yes, Tywin's treatment of Tyrion is one of his most costly mistakes.

One general point. Good decisions don't necessarily lead to good results and the same holds for bad ones. So taking Tywin's defeat as evidence that he horribly screwed up is thin.

[HouseHarrison]

Tyrion (despite losing his shit with Shae....), Lancel, and Kevan all seem fine. Tommen/Mycrella seem fine too, probably just because they're so young. Tommen especially seems to be kindhearted and nice to animals, as opposed to Joffrey who tortured animals at a young age.

Tywin is a mixed bag. He wasn't especially cruel for Westerosi standards and was genuinely looking out for the interests of his House and the Realm, but he was just a robot and a shameful father.

I am an optimist with Jaime and believe he will end up a truly good person by the end of the series.

Cersei was a bitch, and has since become a bitch who has lost her marbles.

And Joffrey.....Oh boy.

[butterbumps!]

So Tywin acts out of ambition but also out of paranoia. He simply doesn't want to turn over influence but he is also afraid Ned is actually going to punish him? He has no reason to fear arrest if he goes to king's landing but he is fearful Ned will act against him for helping Robert at the end of the rebellion. You can't have it both ways.

No, I'm not trying to have it both ways, so I will clarify.

I brought up Tywin's paranoia because this paranoia stems, in fact, from his own doing. Had Tywin not behaved years earlier the way he had, he'd have no fucking reason to believe someone might want retribution. Tywin deserves punishment for his behavior at the Rebellion. That he's afraid someone might one day seek this does not make him an understandable "victim" of another person's malfeasance. It makes him a guilty man who doesn't want to answer for his deed. Not that Ned had such intentions anyway.

In no way shape or form is Tywin a victim of anything at the start of the series. He's ambitious, and his paranoia stems from something he, personally, did years before and deserved punishment and side-eyeing for.

Personally I think Tywin assumed Ned, a new hand, had decided to act against him in conjunction with the Tullys and preferred to make a show of strength to secure Tyrion's release than petition KL. He was supposdely the most powerful lord in the realm at this point and the king's father-in-law. Crawling to Ned would have ruined his reputation and the fear in which he was held. Don't really think it was paranoia ...

Then he's an absolute fool. I don't even think he's this stupid.

Well you did.

No, in the conversation with Tyrion I clipped earlier, he has a pretty good measure of Ned. It's highly unlikely he actually thought Ned would act against him, though he does know Ned believes his Rebellion enormities deserved punishment.

My position isn't contradictory. Tywin terrorized the Riverlands to assert his dominance that he believed would wane now that Nedbert was in town. Given what Tywin says of Ned on several occasions, especially when speaking of the Jeyne marriage to Tyrion, it's clear he doesn't believe Ned would actually seek to overthrow the Lannisters due to some ambitious impulse. Nor does he believe Ned would just preemptively arrest someone without due process. Tywin was not afraid to come to KL because he believed there would be an offensive against him; he took advantage of Ned's honor and flexed muscle elsewhere. There was no danger in Tywin's coming to KL for justice, and Tywin knew that. But it's not about self-preservation for Tywin, but rather maintaining dominance.

The point I was making there though was that Ned had no good reason to doubt lannister loyalty to Robert based on the two events you described in your post. If Ned was moving on Tywin because he did (for an irrational reason) want to reduce someone who he thought was disloyal or non-supportive of the crown (which is what you think Tywin thought) then hurrying to KL for justice might have seemed foolish.

You mean, the fact that Tywin entered the battle at the last minute and Ned wasn't even sure which side he was going to fight for at that point? Or the fact that Jaime the Kingsguard happened to have killed the king? The fact that Tywin has a reputation for being insanely ruthless and asserting dominance wherever he so chooses? Ned was clearly in the wrong for thinking Tywin could be anything other than a precious little lamb.

My point was lots of lords act this way. Why was Robb such a baby when Ned was charged with treason? He had no way of knowing it was not true and, in truth, all the Stark suspicions about the lannisters that they acquired in GoT were really untrue owing to the machinations of Littlefinger.

Um, Robb responded to the treason charge as well as Tywin's terrorization of the Riverlands. Jaime Lannister had also just killed a number of his father's household guard for the fuck of it in KL without retribution.

Had the rape of the Riverlands not happened, nor had Ned been attacked by Jaime, the hostilities would not have escalated in the way they did with Robb's men. Mobilizing an army as preparation for war while you first try to sort things out in a legal manner seems reasonable to me. Tywin didn't just mobilize and prep; he purposely and directly instigated hostilities as a terrorist.

Who said anything about 'inevitable,' or 'reasonable.'

You're defending Tywin's assault. I assumed that a defense of this action presupposed that you believed Tywin's response to have some sort of merit, otherwise you wouldn't be defending it like this.

Except they are not.

Who, other than his own children, respond to the things Tywin responds to in the way Tywin responds to them? I haven't heard of another terrorist organization other than the ones he employed for the purpose he employed them (I know Roose sort of took the Mummers over for a while, but that's really not going to help your case). Who else in Westeros pulled a Tysha stunt? I was unaware that other Houses had their own versions of the Rains of Castamere.

In that case you have to explain why Marq Piper, Ser Edmure and indeed Lord Hoster thought paying back Gregor 'in kind' for his deeds was a justified course of action (meaning do what he did to them) and why Hoster even thought the crown would give this course of action its blessing.

They weren't raping Gregor's smallfolk, fucking boys with Septon Utt, and whatever it was Shagwell was doing. They were attacking the men, not purposely terrorizing innocents.

You have to explain why both Ned and later the Blackfish understood Tywin's ravaging strategy as calculated political and military decisions as opposed to unheard of and/or pointless atrocities committed purely out of Tywin's sadistic and genocidal tendencies. You have to explain why Robb's own raiding of the westerlands was calculated to pull Tywin west.

Ok, I think I understand why you thought I said Tywin's moves are uncalculated now. No, Tywin's strategies are short-term effective, but unsustainable at the macro scale. They are calculated to cause maximum damage and fear. I made a comment that Tywin was sadistic and hateful. He is. His sadism is part of why he pushes the ruthlessness of warfare to the extreme he does. He's not merely a disinterested strategist. He actively wants those who cross him to suffer.

The point about medieval warfare is that it illuminates the author's own statements in the text and knowledge of it prevents you falling into blunders like stating that armies raided each others lands solely to cut off their foes supplies.

I didn't use the word "solely." I understand what the chevauchee is, and that it was more than mere cutting off of supplies. The point I was making is that within the context of ASOIAF, that sort of chevauchee is not practiced to its historical extents and especially not to Tywin's extents, and is therefore not the norm. Robb/ Blackfish spoke about preventing supplies, not raping and genocide.

What! And unleashing your army to burn and raze the countryside and at least kill anyone who resists isn't a terror tactic? What do you think Rickard Karstark would do in the westerlands if some westermen decided they didn't want their holdfast pillaged and burned?

Rickard Karstark is hardly a paragon for comparison as it pertains, and provided Rickard did not command his men to torture and rape the resistant smallfolk, this doesn't come close to Tywin's tactics. Again, I know what chevauchee is. What Tywin commands is not that.

It was in your response to Groat.

I clarified this above, and I hadn't said "uncalculated."

I get he thinks Gregor is good at raiding and killing folk yes. I thought you said people said his use of him as a raider was damaging and being criticized. I assumed he wasn't interested in turning him over to the Martells because he realized it would probably do little good, so why not just try fobbing them off with someone who was already dead.

I'll pretend you're not condoning Gregor's efficacy as Tywin's raping proxy here.

Yeah, Tywin is vain and prideful.

He was also an enormously successful politician who left his house in position of great strength with all it's foes defeated or quelled. He had a strong alliance with the other most powerful house in the realm, and control over the throne. It is not surprising that on news of his death all his enemies took heart again thinking everything was changed now that Lord Tywin was dead.

And......he also did everything in his power to bring his own ruin. You don't find it even a little distasteful that the Reyne/ Castamere unpleasantness is all because they laughed at him? As in, they didn't attack his House. They were lax about paying back debts and joked about the Lannisters. He fucking exterminated them for this. This is why and how he "raised" his House. Ok, he "raised" up the House to be destroyed by his own hand in the most spectacular way possible. It could not have happened to a more deserving guy.

The argument that this was achieved at the cost of long term stability does not wash. There is precious little reason to think it reasonable the RW was ever going to lead to the overthrow of lannister power in the south.

Really? Then why didn't he publicly take full credit for it? And it's perfectly reasonable to think this was an unsustainable move. Something like that would only foment even unaffected parties' resentment toward those involved given how low it was.

In the north Tywin was content to give Bolton his chance (and, tbh, success was very far from impossible). The worst that could happen would have been the re-emergence of a weakened Stark kingdom north of the neck with the loss of all its territories in the riverlands. This would have been the situation if Tywin hadn't pulled the RW so he lost very little even if there was a strong backlash. The likeliest outcome was the end of the northern kingdom as an entity, or a strong and forceful power.

Actually, he wasn't banking on the Boltons up there. The plan was to get Sansa pregnant by Tyrion and plant them at Winterfell, eliminating the Stark line through "breeding" it out. He failed at that one too.

Maybe this should be restated:

No, they are decisions that produce immediate rewards with self-defeating results in the long term. When Jaime stands vigil after Tywin's death, he muses that Tywin's real legacy is nothing more than the "feast for crows" that has befallen Westeros: "Every crow in the Seven Kingdoms should pay homage to you, Father. From Castamere to the Blackwater, you fed them well." Tywin's decisions ruined his House, left no legacy, and earned nothing of the respect he so desperately craved. His "eulogies" consist of jokes about shitting.

Tywin's pride prevented him from reasonably dealing with the Catnapping. His pride prevented him from actually making peace with Dorne. His pride blinded him to the piece of shit that is LF, raising the pissant to Harrenhal, which facilitated the fall of his House more spectacularly. His pride got in the way of his estimation of Robb, and outmaneuvered in the field, he resorted to the unclever, unsustainable atrocity of the RW, where, like always, he hid like a coward behind his even more unscrupulous minions.