Top 7 military commanders in ASOIAF (including Robert's Rebellion)

[Fetch me a block]

being a military commander also means u got 2 have some political insight into the political aspect of the war, and robb stark didnt have much of that......

Robb had a marriage alliance secured and was close to getting Renly on his team, but love and bad luck got in the way respectively. He also persuaded the Riverlands, a whole constituent region to join him.

[Fetch me a block]

Robert Baratheon takes the number one spot---even though Ned Stark and Jon Arryn played a major part in his campaign---still 3 battles in one day is impressive.

Stannis Baratheon is number two---his resume speaks for itself. He was defeated on Blackwater Bay but I attribute that loss to the intervention of the Lannisters/Tyrells and not a blunder on Stannis part.

Ned Stark comes a close third---he saved Robert's at the Stoney Sept, fought on the Trident and took command when Robert fell, lifted the siege on Storm's End saving Stannis' ass and finished the war at the Tower of Joy---long story short, House Baratheon is indebted to House Stark.

Randall Tarly is number four---he's well regarded as a commander and he handed Robert his only defeat during the Rebellion. That says a lot.

Euron Greyjoy is number five---he orchestrated the victory at Lannisport during the Greyjoy Rebellion and is now raiding the Reach.

Robb Stark---at only 16 years of age he defeated the Kingslayer, lifted the siege of Riverun, smashed the Lannisters at Oxcross, Ashemark and the Crag. But he botched the Stark/Frey alliance and alliances are crucial in war so he slips to number six.

Jon Snow is my number seven---at a tender age of, umm, 15 or 16, defended Castle Black against a much larger wildling host, created important alliances with wildling leaders, prepared the Wall for an impeding attack from the Others and counseled Stannis about winning the clansmen to his cause.

*Daenerys could very well be number seven. Her resume speaks for itself as well.

Honorable mentions: Ramsay Snow, Tywin Lannister

Sounds good, though how you could put Euron Greyjoy above Robb Stark is surprising. Robb Stark has fought and won more battles and he's less than half Euron's age.

[Reek Da Villain]

Sounds good, though how you could put Euron Greyjoy above Robb Stark is surprising. Robb Stark has fought and won more battles and he's less than half Euron's age.

I could put Robb Stark above Euron, but IMO the North rallied around Robb in honor of Ned whereas Euron is a mastermind and won his kingship by being a badass.

[Lord Reaver]

If it was purely about the number of battles, you could argue that Robb is better.

That is however ignoring several facts about them:

1) At least one of Robb's victories was against half-trained recruits (Oxcross)

2) Robb Stark had several advisors, chiefly the Blackfish, who helped him devise his plans. Euron has noone but himself.

3) War happened to break out when Euron was older, while it did so when Robb was young. It bears little relevance on who is the better commander.

4) Robb's victories are impressive, sure, but they aren't exactly exceptional. Euron's invasion of the Shields is something that hasn't been achieved in 2000 years, and was largely thought impossible, both by his own men and the foe.

[Lion of Judah]

She's fought 3 battles, one with dragons.

"3 victories don't make you a conqueror"

It sure as hell ain't a bad start, anyone who says otherwise is just a hater.

"You mad bro?" -Daenerys Targaryen

[The Drunkard]

Robb had a marriage alliance secured and was close to getting Renly on his team, but love and bad luck got in the way respectively. He also persuaded the Riverlands, a whole constituent region to join him.

Robb may have had a marriage alliance, but he messed it up completely because he couldn't keep it in his pants. Renly would only have joined him if Robb gave up Northern independance and submitted... so the same offer Renly made to everyone. The Riverlands joined because they had a common enemy and the Tully's were family.

[Ours if the Fury]

1. Robert Baratheon

2. Robb Stark

3. Randyll Tarly

4. Stannis Baratheon

5. Jeor Mormont (After all he did set up and organise the the defence of the fist of the first men and held against others and white walkers for a time no small feat.

6. Dany

7. Tywin or Eddard Stark

[dim_mac]

It's too bad Stannis doesn't always listen to Davos, he would be higher on everybody's list. Davos has an organized and tactical mind, even when illiterate.

I personally wouldn't include Dany in any commanders list. She's mostly playing off luck and hunches and makes some very poor choises trying to restore civil order

[danm_999]

The thing is she appears to have made key operational, and some tactical, decisions herself, before each engagement. Whether she agrees with the title or not she's functioning as a general in these instances.

Well no I think she's functioning as a political leader who creates conditions that make the battles easier for her military commanders, but that she herself isn't one.

We've got a pretty tight definition here in this thread of what we're discussing; people who actually appear and command on the battlefield, and to include Daenerys in that seems to be really trying to round peg that square hole for the sake of it. The actual business of military command she leaves completely up to others (Jorah, Daario, Grey Worm, Barristan), and she only really gives the most perfunctory of orders; she wisely leaves the actual execution of her goals to those who are experienced on the battlefield.

Jorah then apparently went and implemented the plan on the battlefield, which is certainly a key part of what happened, but one can hardly say Jorah was the commander of the army either, given many key military decisions were not made by him.

Well they can easily. Daenerys does. I don't really agree with the notion that you become a general simply because you give a general orders or objectives.

[IRON BANK]

Robb had a marriage alliance secured and was close to getting Renly on his team, but love and bad luck got in the way respectively. He also persuaded the Riverlands, a whole constituent region to join him.

Thats great Rob had bad luck, or just made piss poor decisions. Any way you cut it he did alot just wasn't quite good enough to see the enemies right in front of his face. In war battle commanders fight the big and little battles, use the asassin or ambassador, or retreat and know when to attack. Rob missed alot of these little details thats why he's low on my list.(luck horse shoes and hand grenades)

[IRON BANK]

It sure as hell ain't a bad start, anyone who says otherwise is just a hater.

"You mad bro?" -Daenerys Targaryen

I know thats right! to leave her off the list is mad crazy! whats weird is she didn't even make the honorable mention. I hope people are aware that after this next upcoming battle. which by the way is massive. Dany and her commanders are gonna have all of slavers bay. and whatever her and dragon raze to the ground on the way back. I mean if we can give all these other people like robert barratheon who had Jon Arryn, Rob Stark who had Bolton,Great John, Karstark, and others just to name a few we cant give Dany any props whos just got Jorah Mormont I mean really.

[IRON BANK]

Dany? lol she isn't even a commander. She has dragons and she can scream. She hasn't studied the arts of war from a master at arms or a maester or anything. She surely does not deserve a mention in the thread.

Yeah Dany got all those victories just handed to her. Whats funny is Dany is doing more w/ less than any one in the story. All these other people get stuff handed to them by inherihtable rights while Dany is a basicly self made person.

[The Drunkard]

I mean if we can give all these other people like robert barratheon who had Jon Arryn, Rob Stark who had Bolton,Great John, Karstark, and others just to name a few we cant give Dany any props whos just got Jorah Mormont I mean really.

The issue is not that she has advisors, it's that she does no commanding. She gives orders to her commanders, they win the battles, and she eats grapes in a tent somewhere.

[danm_999]

All these other people get stuff handed to them by inherihtable rights while Dany is a basicly self made person.

Not really.

The only reason she was sheltered and fed and taught to read and write in her youth was because she was a Targaryen. The only reason she was invited in Illyrio's manse was because she was a Targaryen. The only reason she was considered an appropriate match by Khal Drogo, which scored her a khalasar, is because she was a Targaryen. The only reason she was given her dragon's eggs, and by extension her dragons, was because she was a Targaryen. The only reason she has been given a marriage alliance by Dorne, and a prospective one from Aegon, is because she's a Targaryen.

That's not to say that she's had no input in her own successes, but strip away that last name and she'd probably have grown up a courtesan in Braavos. If you want a character that's actually self made, you need to look at Davos or Varys. Characters that had nothing; not even surnames.

[IRON BANK]

Not really.

The only reason she was sheltered and fed and taught to read and write in her youth was because she was a Targaryen. The only reason she was invited in Illyrio's manse was because she was a Targaryen. The only reason she was considered an appropriate match by Khal Drogo, which scored her a khalasar, is because she was a Targaryen. The only reason she was given her dragon's eggs, and by extension her dragons, was because she was a Targaryen. The only reason she has been given a marriage alliance by Dorne, and a prospective one from Aegon, is because she's a Targaryen.

That's not to say that she's had no input in her own successes, but strip away that last name and she'd probably have grown up a courtesan in Braavos. If you want a character that's actually self made, you need to look at Davos or Varys. Characters that had nothing; not even surnames.

Yeah Dany got all those victories just handed to her. Whats funny is Dany is doing more w/ less than any one in the story. All these other people get stuff handed to them by inherihtable rights while Dany is a basicly self made person.

The comparison is from the top 7 militray commaders in westeros. most of the people you just mentioned varys or davos' aren't leading any thing, their subordinates, who lead a section of another commaders army."Dany is doing alot more w/ less". point being after khal drogo's death. dany didn't have any thing,(a plan gone bad) when she hatched the dragons which nobody has done in a very long time, that was done by her (we know as the reader the dragon eggs weren't meant to be hatched nobody thought they could be they were meant for sell swords, or hiring ships to cross the narrow sea, or were seen as having a monetary purpose). When Dany tricks the sell swords against her at yunkai she gets no respect, when she sends a small team to infiltrate and open gates at yunkai to sack a city no respect, when she uses the dragons at astapor to free the unsullied no respect. Then in mereen she wins brings an un even truce no respect. but that Manderly oy yeah PROVEN COMMANDER. And one more thing. See when we try to qoute lets not do it partially if we do we can, really miss our point. we can come up with any thing. But thats okay It's a common literary mistake,you see it done on the news and in bad pulp, and especially on this board. For instance above I compared her to commanders who have started with more than her. people who inherighted alot. You brought up A SENTENCE, which can be driven to any context you want. watch

The only reason she was given her dragon's eggs, and by extension her dragons, was because she was a Targaryen

this comment is false(see above)

The only reason she has been given a marriage alliance by Dorne, and a prospective one from Aegon, is because she's a Targaryen.

A prospect and having something in hand are two different things

[King Aerys the Just]

Dany is a skilled leader and politician no doubt, especially considering her age and situation. The main thing that is holding her back and causing problems is her heart rather than her naivety in my opinion, and it is not fair to criticize her too harshly for that. Once you get to the sheer scale she and many other important persons in the series are working with the line between where battle ends and politics start starts getting blurry too. So you can't disqualify her from the military commander title just because she lets her captains make a lot of tactical decisions, since she has to be mainly focused on the larger strategies anyway.

Just look at Tywin for a very clear example. His victories on the battlefield and in the WOT5K were very much due to his successful political and strategic maneuvering, not because he rode around on a battering ram and told his archers what to shoot at in every fight. Robb's military successes at Riverrun and the Whispering Wood would never have come to pass if he hadn't managed to convince the Freys to support him first etc.

[gash]

You're dragging this wildly off topic. You said she created her army from nothing, and I pointed out that she clearly didn't.

wildly off topic? i'm making a case for a military commander in a thread about best military commanders.

as for creating an army out of nothing, it's a turn of phrase not to be taken literally, but whatever.

[gash]

there's some serious clutching of straws going on to downplay dany's military success.

she's a proven winner on the battlefield. much more so than jon snow for example who's won a single battle (and wasn't good enough a leader to stop his men murdering him), and she wasn't given an army like he was, she made one.

i'm not saying she's the greatest commander, but she deserves to be on the list for sure. it's just childish that people won't consider her cause they hate her. a little objectivity wouldn't go astray.

[Lord Reaver]

The issue is, I believe a matter of definition of what makes a good commander.

To me, a good commander is one that performs the act of combat tactics (up to what is called the operational level in modern terms) in a good way. This does not extend to the field of Strategy, as that would extend the criteria to allow for too wide a selection of leaders, such as Daenerys.

To that point, building and training an army does not make for a good commander. An excellent example can be found in the american civil war with major-general McLellan. He supervised the organization and training of the Army of the Potomac, turning it into the force that would ultimately prove decisive in winning the war for the Union. He is however not generally considered a good commander because of this, rather he is criticized for his hesitance and poor use of his numerically superior forces against the confederate forces under Lee. Ultimately. As a result McLellan was removed from command by the president due to the lack of belief in his ability as a battlefield commander.

Using such criteria, I feel that Daenerys' strenghts lie not in tactical or operational decisions, as she seems to leave those to her commanders. She seems much more able in the fields of diplomacy and organization, which under these definitions would make her a good leader and strategist, just not a very good commander.

[gash]

Using such criteria, I feel that Daenerys' strenghts lie not in tactical or operational decisions, as she seems to leave those to her commanders. She seems much more able in the fields of diplomacy and organization, which under these definitions would make her a good leader and strategist, just not a very good commander.

i would counter this argument by saying that a good military commaner will keep good council and listen to his/her advisers and ultimately it is he/she that okays a strategy/tactic.