Top 7 military commanders in ASOIAF (including Robert's Rebellion)

[E-Ro]

Look, I don't think Stannis is a bad commander. I think he is solid, determined, relentless, tenacious and all that goes along with it. He is simply not strategically gifted in the way that military geniuses are.

But let's wait and see how it turns out. My view is not that Stannis will die in the Battle of Ice, but that something will happen that will remove him from the scene in some way, probably temporarily. Whether that means he is wounded, or captured by someone, deliberately goes into hiding or is incapacitated in some other way I don't know.

But I think he fills a vacuum that needs to remain empty during the early part of Winds of Winter. Else a lot of other build up doesn't make sense. Whether that be Jon or Rickon or Bran's involvement through the Old Gods.

So I'm waiting with bated breath to see how it plays out.

Well I don't think being naturally gifted makes is really a thing, I think it comes with hard work and experience. Having a good teacher is important and the lords of westeros are all trained in battle from a young age. So the best among them will be those that had a good tutor(Robb had Ned) or the ones who have led men before(like Robert). I know this is more a matter of opinion and being a natural at something does help but I think most people can be effective leaders in the right circumstances. The best will be men who know what they are doing, have clear concise plans of action, don't blunder, and react to failure in a healthy manner.

As for what will happen in winds, anything is possible and what you are saying could very well happen. All we can do is speculate on what is likely. I agree about the battle if ice though. I think that's the most likely outcome for that battle.

[Fetch me a block]

I'd remove Robert and put Euron Greyjoy.

Robert is way too overrated as a military commander, Eddard and Jon were the true commanders behind both wars and that's largely recognized. Fans assume that supposedly it was Robert who assigned Stannis to defeat the Iron Fleet or Ned to other successful battles but this is just speculation, as far as we know it could have been Jon or Ned who advised him to it. Besides, Robert is a soldier (and a damn fine one) not a commander.

What military successes do we really have from him?

-The Summerhall battles, but even there he was most likely fighting a force smaller than his (considering the 3 minor Lords compared to the bulk of the Stormlands behind Robert)

And what failures do we have?

-Ashford, his forces were crushed even more Mace Tyrell's real forces arrived.

-Stoney Sept, he was running with little forces remaining which hints for other defeats of his between the battle of Ashford and this.

What about the Trident and the Greyjoy Rebellion? Pyke is a damn strong castle and its not easy to land an amphibious force, even with control of the Sunset Sea. And he was not 'crushed' at Ashford, everyone knows that battle meant diddlysquat.

[danm_999]

Your aggression does your argument a disservice, I'm afraid.

Aggression...? Because I called something 'bullshit' that I find to be poorly justified?

Using expletives =/= being angry.

[raegal_targaryen]

Daenerys should be up there, she always manages 2 come out with minimal losses and great victories maybe not on the top but atleast one of em....

She didn't build an army out of nothing, she bought it from a bunch of slavers.

[Chaircat Meow]

Yea, Dany is presented in a pretty similar way to Robb when it comes to military matters. Inspired ideas and so on ...

[Toxspecific]

Dany? lol she isn't even a commander. She has dragons and she can scream. She hasn't studied the arts of war from a master at arms or a maester or anything. She surely does not deserve a mention in the thread.

[Chaircat Meow]

Dany? lol she isn't even a commander. She has dragons and she can scream. She hasn't studied the arts of war from a master at arms or a maester or anything. She surely does not deserve a mention in the thread.

Er, yes but she took Astapor, defeated the army of Yunkai and took Meereen. The key tactical decisions, such as when to attack, and how, were all taken by her.

[King Aerys the Just]

Her enemies are so bizarre though. Bed slaves with spears, clanker lords, pink feathered giants on stilts (wtf?), naked pretty boys led by a wannabe Dany, and a smattering of mercenaries tripping over each other in their haste to turn their cloaks to her because they realise how worthless their employers are. Hard to gauge how much of her success is due to actual talent because of this in my opinion, though she does seem to be at least reasonably competent regardless.

Her sack of Astapor especially was ridiculous though. Surely she can't have been the first buyer to contemplate using his newly purchased army of slave-robot soldiers to get his money back and more besides, by using them on the city? Why didn't they conduct the trade outside of the city walls at least? :/

[Manderlay]

Come again ? Dragons were exactly what Euron promised at the Kingsmoot, it's why he won.

Yes, I agree that Dragons is what Euron promised but its not the singular reason he was chosen at the Kingsmoot, Euron also promised the Reach, the Arbor, the whole of westeros, what i am trying to say is that sacking castles and towns in the Reach, taking Arbor, looting and riches would be more appealing to the Iron born than Dragons that are far away in the east (at this point of story during kingsmoot no one has heard about the Dragons from the east), IMO the Iron born would be a little sceptical about the Dragons (blowing of the horn got their attention but the nutcase part comes into play here as you agreed that most of the Iron born think he is a nutcase), also Euron offered the Iron born the best course, better than any of the other claimants like Victarion and Asha.

Its been 300 years since Black Harren, the Iron born have been reavers for the past 300 years but they still believe in the old ways and want to be conquerors, Eurons course of becoming conquerors (Old Ways) is what appealed to the Iron born the most.

You have convinced me that Euron is a capable battle commander, but he always struck me more of a strategist, Victarion is true battle commander but Euron is smarter, clever, has a good tactical mind, but more than battle commander he is leader, victarion is leader as well but not as good as Euron, but if there was to be battle, who would rather command the fleet if both were present, Victarion or Euron? i think Victarion, i still say that Euron cannot command the Iron born in battle like Victarion can.

[DurararaFTW]

I'd remove Robert and put Euron Greyjoy.

Robert is way too overrated as a military commander, Eddard and Jon were the true commanders behind both wars and that's largely recognized. Fans assume that supposedly it was Robert who assigned Stannis to defeat the Iron Fleet or Ned to other successful battles but this is just speculation, as far as we know it could have been Jon or Ned who advised him to it. Besides, Robert is a soldier (and a damn fine one) not a commander.

What military successes do we really have from him?

-The Summerhall battles, but even there he was most likely fighting a force smaller than his (considering the 3 minor Lords compared to the bulk of the Stormlands behind Robert)

And what failures do we have?

-Ashford, his forces were crushed even more Mace Tyrell's real forces arrived.

-Stoney Sept, he was running with little forces remaining which hints for other defeats of his between the battle of Ashford and this.

Robert was the one who took Gulltown for Jon while Ned crossed the mountains to the Sisters. He made the decision to beat all three lords planning to muster at Summerhall and await them. I dunno how you assessed that he had most of the strength of the Stormslands behind him at the time. He had only just called his banners and in a hurry to beat them to their own destination, Griffin's Roost which at the time was still a very large territory wasn't coming either and he left 500 men with Stannis.

[danm_999]

Er, yes but she took Astapor, defeated the army of Yunkai and took Meereen. The key tactical decisions, such as when to attack, and how, were all taken by her.

Yeah but that's not really enough to make her a military commander. I don't think even Daenerys would agree with calling herself that. Before her battle at Yunkai, for example, she tells Jorah this;

You have been a better friend to me than any I have known, a better brother than Viserys ever was. You are the first of my Queensguard, the commander of my army, my most valued counselor, my good right hand. I honor and respect and cherish you—but I do not desire you, Jorah Mormont, and I am weary of your trying to push every other man in the world away from me, so I must needs rely on you and you alone. It will not serve, and it will not make me love you any better.”

Mormont had flushed red when she first began, but by the time Dany was done his face was pale again. He stood still as stone. “If my queen commands,” he said, curt and cold.

Dany was warm enough for both of them. “She does,” she said. “She commands. Now go see to your Unsullied, ser. You have a battle to fight and win.”

As I said earlier, she definitely has a keen mind and a good natural handle of military tactics, but she pretty clearly outsources her military command to Jorah and then Barristan. I can definitely see why she deserves an honourable mention, but she simply doesn't have the involvement or experience to justify bumping Robert, Robb, Stannis, the Blackfish, Ned, Tywin or Randyll off the list.

[Chaircat Meow]

As I said earlier, she definitely has a keen mind and a good natural handle of military tactics, but she pretty clearly outsources her military command to Jorah and then Barristan. I can definitely see why she deserves an honourable mention, but she simply doesn't have the involvement or experience to justify bumping Robert, Robb, Stannis, the Blackfish, Ned, Tywin or Randyll off the list.

The thing is she appears to have made key operational, and some tactical, decisions herself, before each engagement. Whether she agrees with the title or not she's functioning as a general in these instances.

Jorah then apparently went and implemented the plan on the battlefield, which is certainly a key part of what happened, but one can hardly say Jorah was the commander of the army either, given many key military decisions were not made by him.

[Groat]

Yeah but that's not really enough to make her a military commander. I don't think even Daenerys would agree with calling herself that. Before her battle at Yunkai, for example, she tells Jorah this;

I might be wrong, but IIRC wasn't Dany sitting at the prow of the boat that was battering the gate into Mereen? Screaming and commanding while her boat and troops took flaming arrows and and burning oil? Sounds like a battle commander to me.

ETA: I just reread the part and I was incorrect. While Dany wanted to lead the attack herself, her commanders unanimously agreed that she should not and so remained behind, on her silver, wearing chainmail.

[Fetch me a block]

Is anyone going to put down some alternative lists?

[E-Ro]

I might be wrong, but IIRC wasn't Dany sitting at the prow of the boat that was battering the gate into Mereen? Screaming and commanding while her boat and troops took flaming arrows and and burning oil? Sounds like a battle commander to me.

I don't recall anything like this. I'm pretty sure dany has not ever been on a battlefield during a battle.

[Chaircat Meow]

At Yunkai she stayed in her tent while the battle went on, but at Meereen she observed from the rear.

[E-Ro]

Is anyone going to put down some alternative lists?

Well I won't give any more lists but I will say a list without Stannis, tywin, or Robert is flawed. There is room for debate about the order, but IMO these three are the best. Oh and yeah Robb before I get screamed at, he wasn't bad that's for sure.

[Manderlay]

I might be wrong, but IIRC wasn't Dany sitting at the prow of the boat that was battering the gate into Mereen? Screaming and commanding while her boat and troops took flaming arrows and and burning oil? Sounds like a battle commander to me.

No that never happened, Daenaerys has never commanded troops in the battle, she was watching from her tent/rear at what as happening at the walls and gates of Maereen

[raegal_targaryen]

being a military commander also means u got 2 have some political insight into the political aspect of the war, and robb stark didnt have much of that......

[Reek Da Villain]

Robert Baratheon takes the number one spot---even though Ned Stark and Jon Arryn played a major part in his campaign---still 3 battles in one day is impressive.

Stannis Baratheon is number two---his resume speaks for itself. He was defeated on Blackwater Bay but I attribute that loss to the intervention of the Lannisters/Tyrells and not a blunder on Stannis part.

Ned Stark comes a close third---he saved Robert's at the Stoney Sept, fought on the Trident and took command when Robert fell, lifted the siege on Storm's End saving Stannis' ass and finished the war at the Tower of Joy---long story short, House Baratheon is indebted to House Stark.

Randall Tarly is number four---he's well regarded as a commander and he handed Robert his only defeat during the Rebellion. That says a lot.

Euron Greyjoy is number five---he orchestrated the victory at Lannisport during the Greyjoy Rebellion and is now raiding the Reach.

Robb Stark---at only 16 years of age he defeated the Kingslayer, lifted the siege of Riverun, smashed the Lannisters at Oxcross, Ashemark and the Crag. But he botched the Stark/Frey alliance and alliances are crucial in war so he slips to number six.

Jon Snow is my number seven---at a tender age of, umm, 15 or 16, defended Castle Black against a much larger wildling host, created important alliances with wildling leaders, prepared the Wall for an impeding attack from the Others and counseled Stannis about winning the clansmen to his cause.

*Daenerys could very well be number seven. Her resume speaks for itself as well.

Honorable mentions: Ramsay Snow, Tywin Lannister