biggest sense of entitlement in ASOFAI

[Penguin king]

No, whoever is strongest can have it. That's the spirit of what Aegon the Conqueror created.

Wait... So why doesn't that apply to Winterfell? We've already agreed that that's the principle the early Starks lived by. I thought I understood your position at last, but now i'm all confused again. :shocked:

[danm_999]

So if the children had a castles made of bricks the first men would have said well this place is owned lets go?

Probably not. But they didn't have that, so it's a pointless line of inquiry.

Did the first men settle in the land without a fight and the children Only fought them for burning trees?

The answer to both those questions is yes. The Children did not build cities. They lived in places like Bloodraven's cave, according to Leaf, for a thousand thousand years. Their problem with the First Men was that they burnt weirwoods, which were sacred to the Children.

Once the pact was in place, the Children and the First Men lived peacefully together (and even cooperated like during the Long Night) for thousands of years, which would be simply impossible if they were fighting for living space.

The children did not buibecause they could have just asked nicely not to burn their gods n save themselves a long war.

Wouldn't be the first time humans fought a dumb war when a very easy alternative existed unfortunately.

[danm_999]

Wait... So why doesn't that apply to Winterfell? We've already agreed that that's the principle the early Starks lived by. I thought I understood your position at last, but now i'm all confused again. :shocked:

Well I'm speaking practically. It's impossible to 'give back' the land of King's Landing to its original inhabitants.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

This is one of the things I love about this series, the characters n situations are as real as they are in our reality. its fiction but real just like the strong and rich taking from the poor n weak because they can. Who knew fantasy could be so real?

[Penguin king]

Well I'm speaking practically. It's impossible to 'give back' the land of King's Landing to its original inhabitants.

So when you said "Whoever is strongest can have it. That's the spirit of what Aegon the Conqueror created." you weren't speaking on philosophical grounds, it was more a case of "I don't care what they do with it, the house that originally owned the land is probably extinct anyway"?

[Gendels Children]

DANY and CERCEI foe shizz.. Cercei more so as she doesnt really have any rights to anything, where as Dany does have the Targ blood

[Lady Blue Rose]

Theon conquered winterfell, and Ramsy conquered him, but I think you'd agree that the Starks still have a "right" to their ancestral lands and titles. 'Might makes right' might be the reality, but by the comon-law of culture and custom you don't lose your claim to something just beacuse it's been stolen from you.

Edit: I see DanM disagrees in the post above. Saying the length of ownership decides who's got the best claim doesn't make sense to me. The Native Americans lived on their land for thousands of years before Europeans came along, but very few people would argue the land belongs to their decendents and no one else. No one is going to cry if the Lannisters get stripped of Casterly rock by the end of the series, and they've resided there for almost as long as the Starks have in Winterfell.

Actually, as a point of US history, the US government agreed that the lands belonged to the Native Americans and no one else... that is why they were paid reparations for the land forcibly taken from them AND why they have Native American reservations recognized by the US Dept of Interior, in which they "reserve" Tribe sovereign law and jurisdiction (albeit, limited to a point)...

[Lady Blue Rose]

Number doesn't matter they achieved more in 300 years then every house in westeros combined for the past 8000 years. Their name will stand the test of time. I love the Starks but I doubt they're known outside of westeros by non westerosi plus who's fighting for the Starks? Manderlys in secret

It doesn't really matter who knows them outside of Westeros... what matters is the power they hold in Westeros. In terms of your arguments, the Starks were kings in Westeros long before the Targaryens, they are the founders of Westeros, and in terms of what they gave to the realm... they gave it peace for many many many years.

Oh, and also their staple on the land for the sake of history.... THEY BUILT THE WALL!!! Which has been standing for longer than KL, if I might say... The wall that has made it possible for the realm to exist and be protected from the evil murderous force of the others... I think that might be worth some sort of recognition.

No, whoever is strongest can have it. That's the spirit of what Aegon the Conqueror created.

EXACTLY!!

[lojzelote]

In order:

Viserys Targaryen

Cersei Lannister

Stannis Baratheon

ETA: How could I have forgotten Our Good King Joffrey? On the first place with Viserys!

[The Fourth Head]

Stannis Baratheon for certain. He was prepared to kin-slay- due to his entitlement.

He wanted to sacrifice his Nephew- due to his entitlement

He cheats on his wife- due to his entitlement (the means to an end Melisandre offers)

He "saves" the realm (read- massacres and sacrifices asylum seekers who were fleeing the "true" enemy) because it will win his kingdom- see- he forgot his entitlement for all of half a sentence.

At no stage does he ever forget himself- his ego, his entitlement, and he wouldn't surprise me if he sacrificed Theon to the great Other, if it got him out of the snow, won him an army of wights, and got him back on his way to the Iron throne- the living be damned.

Dany allows other moralities to distract her from her entitlement- she truly wrestles with the concept of "means to an end" and reminds everyone of her status at times to push through utterly selfless acts- like saving the Lhazareen girls. "I am Khalisee and Drogo will hear of this" this is not self entitlement in my view. Or certainly, it wasn't at that moment in time anyway, as much as her use of titles rub people up the wrong way. She often uses her titles as means to other ends- she uses "I am blood of the dragon" as a survival mechanism when she is scared, or struggling, she seems able to consider home to be the red door, and not the Iron Throne that is "hers by rights", and finally, there is the sense that after 300 years, her family- the family that united the kingdoms, founded KL, raised the Great Sept Of Baelor, hell, MADE the very Iron Throne the usurpers sit on, were wiped out, and that she kind of owes it to them out of duty. It isn't for her sake she needs to win it back, it's for memories of the generations of Targaryans that came before her- just as the Starks have 8,000 years of entitlement to the North. Its not the individual whos' entitled, it's the weight of the surname and history that comes with it. Stannis only had his brother's name to trade on, and most of the current generation still remember Robert as a usurper rather than a king by right. Stannis the MAN is entitled to the throne because he did his duty and now he deserves his reward.

She also has a better case for justifying her extreme actions as serving a nobler purpose than someone like Stannis. No matter how brutal, or badly she has handled the Slaver's Bay scenario, her desire to end the mass-practice of castrating enslaved men, torturing them and forcing them to kill babies to prove their strength is so worth fighting against. I cannot get beyond how horriffic, how EVIL this is. Just because slavers bay have no other means to make money, so what? NOTHING justifies the continuation of this abominable practice, and no matter what pain the peoples of that region go through in the short term adjusting to a social revolution, generations down the line when the region has adapted or dissipated to other areas where they can find means to trade/make money, generations will be a lot better off. She could have marched past Yunkai, but her morality prevented her from doing so. Hell, if we can curse Dany, we can curse Abraham Lincoln as well for pushing his ethics too hard too soon and forcing a civil war which resulted in general pain and misery. Nowadays, Lincoln is revered as a key figure in leading social reform.

[jphsnake]

Entitlement means to believe that something should be yours and dont need to work to earn it. After that it is YOURS, and everyone else should know it.

To have a sense of entitlement imo means

(1) you do not have what you "entitled" to

(2) once you obtain what you are "entitled", everyone will recognize it and support it

(3) it is in the laws of men (or at least you think it is)

The most entitled characters who lack (1), (2) and (3)

Dany, Viserys, (F)aegon, Tyrion (w/casterly rock)

Stannis lacks (2)

Renly lacks (3)

Littlefinger lacks (2), (3)

People who lack all 3 of those traits are:

Tywin, Cersei

I don't know why people think Cersei's entitled. Its probably b/c of her unpopularity. She does have the power through the majority of the series (1), she knows very well that there are lots of people who dont support her (2), and most importantly, she does not have a sense of entitlement because she KNOWS she has no right to the throne (3), but she could care less, and is willing to make very risky moves to take what is not hers.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

All the Ironborn (except the Reader and Asha), Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay, Viserys and Tywin.