Westerosi perceptions about Lyanna's death?

[TheSpottedCat]

My thoughts are that the "official" story is that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her, mainly because Robert wouldn't have liked to hear the opposite (that she ran away willingly). The common people and those nobles that were alive and old enough at the time to understand what was happening know the truth, but don't know about R+L=J, except for Ned, Wylla, Howland Reed and maybe some others closely involved. Noble children, like Bran and Arya, only get the official version of the story and their parents avoid talking about it. About Jon, Ned wasn't foolish enough to return with baby Jon from the Tower of Joy, so he probably left him with Wylla and the Daynes, went about some other business, and after the war was over, went and got him (or, more likely sent for him). Lyanna's body was probably sent to Winterfell as soon as she died, with some men that could be trusted and buried in the crypts as soon as possible so no one could see the signs of pregnancy on it. If I'm not mistaken, Ned thinks to himself that she died from a fever (likely puerperal fever) but nobody else seems to know exactly how she died.

[A Man Has Said]

but don't a lot of people hold rhaegar in high esteem? selmy, jorah etc meaning people don't believe lyanna was kidnapped/raped.

this is one of my problems with R + L = J, surely half the kingdom would have put 2 and 2 together when ned comes back with a child after his sister dies after being away with her lover for months.

Sacrilege, sir!

The R+L=J theory is a perfectly established albeit unsubstantiated FACT as far as these forums are concerned.

Reminds me of a line from back in the Watergate era, to be honest:

"..as speculation hardened into rumour.."

I notice a lot of that happens on forums like this. Speculation hardens into rumor, then becomes accepted and established fact, when it could in fact be a red herring.

Like that ridiculous idea on the Harry Potter sites about R.A.B. being Sirius Black's brother Regulus.

OK, maybe not the best example.

[TheSpottedCat]

I find it unbelievable that from the time Whent, Dayne, and Rhaegar take Lyanna to the time she dies on the bed of blood the only people who see her are Rhaegar, Whent, Dayne, Hightower, and possibly Wylla.

I have another, rather gruesome theory about it, and one that doesn't show Ned in a good light. I might be wrong, but here it goes: we know Ned killed all the Kingsguard present at the TOJ and pulled the tower itself down and burned the whole thing. The only people present that actually left the scene are Ned, Howland Reed(and maybe other trusted men), and possibly Wylla (if she was indeed there). So I'm thinking Ned killed the servants so that there would be no witnesses to Lyanna's pregnancy and Jon's birth, except those he trusted. The tower was in the Dornish mountains, so secluded enough that no peasants or other people could have seen or known anything, only the servants of the tower itself. He kept Wylla as a nurse for the baby, and because she could be a decoy- pretend to be the mother, and say Ned bedded her and Jon was his. It's the only rational explanation. Otherwise, surely someone would've talked and the rumours would have slowly spread.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

but don't a lot of people hold rhaegar in high esteem? selmy, jorah etc meaning people don't believe lyanna was kidnapped/raped.

The same unbiased Selmy and Jorah who are following Dany?

this is one of my problems with R + L = J, surely half the kingdom would have put 2 and 2 together when ned comes back with a child after his sister dies after being away with her lover for months.

Years not months. But why it wouldn't be easy to believe it?

:bang: :bang: :bang: . I always forget that. Idiot... This is like 3rd or 4th time I am corrected on this one. Thank you.

It's ok you don't have to feel bad. I have a crackpot theory about

House Dayne being the ancestors of the Valyrians

They look Valyrian to me. Maybe they got some blood in from the motherside. (Although Andals can also be blond, the violet eyes really indicate Valyria).

GRRM said:

I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . . look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

[The Carrier of All Plagues]

Well lets suppose that at the ToJ were Rhaegar, Lyanna, the 3 KG and Wylla the wet nurse.

The rumor is that Lyanna was taken by force, and I think some people may think that she went willingly or that Rhaegar had fell in love and tried to make her love/want him.

She was hostage/away for a conciderable amount of time, so some feelings may have been arose. It's not hard for someone to believe that they fell in bed. Even the servants at ToJ were not told every detail, so if they think that she rapped or willingly fell to bed is irrelevant.

They could have seen that Lyanna was pregnant but they assumed something of the above. It's safe to say that they didn't care about the details. And when the time of birth came everybody said that Lyanna was sick, which is not hard to believe, and kept the servants in dark under Rhaegar's instruction, or simple the 3 KG thought by themselves that it was better to hide the birth cause of the war efforts.

As far as the servants are concidered Lyanna was pregnant died at birth she had a stillborn and the story is over for them to care more, if there were much servants in the first place, or they could just loved Rhaegar and tried to protect his only surviving child. They could had also love Lyanna, who earned their love with her character and sworn to kept the secret. After all when war was over who would try to find them all? If they were alive.

At Dorne there is hot. I doubt that Ned sent the body of Lyanna to Winterfell without any preparations. The smell should had been awfull. Is safe to assume that he sent her bones and no one can tell if she was pregnant after that.

The only detail that bothers me is how hell did Ned managed to tear down the ToJ with only the help of H. Reed.

[Eurybia]

I assume the official story in Westeros is Robert's version: Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar, taken from her betrothed, and died. What stories are told about it probably differs. With how things escalated, I imagine Rhaegar's "kidnapping" isn't thought of or reviled as much as the Mad King's actions, especially since Rhaegar seems to be thought of as a very romantic figure (his harp, rubies in the Trident, dying fighting for Lyanna...).

As to who knows what, while I think any pregnancy would be hidden as well as possible (my guess is Wylla and maybe another person, but no more), who knows what stories go around about Rhaegar and his lady Lyanna? Certainly there are still loyalists (who, honestly, might not even care too much even if he did steal her).

Re: Ned killing any servants. I think it's unlikely, but if he did, I imagine he would have buried them too, and he only mentions eight graves.

[stu1987]

It's unlikely that Ned would have murdered the servants. So out of character. Although I imagine that we would have been devastated had he gone to the ToJ, with the presumption that Lyanna had been kidnapped and pretty much a war being started for it, only to find out that she actually loved Rhaegar.

I think the fact that old Hightower and the Daynes have been so elusive in the series so far suggests that they may know something about what happened at ToJ. Similar to the Howland Reed situation. Robert Baratheon fought that war over false assumptions, so it would seem to make sense that anyone involved who knew the truth would want to avoid being involved in any other war.

Also, I like to think that the smallfolk think the worst of Rhaegar. It's more scandalous to believe that he was a sicko, rapist, kidnapper. But I think we all know from other characters' observations on him, he would have made a great king.

[Roadside Rose]

Something does not add up. Why would Rhaegar leave a pregnant Lyanna with only three Kingsguard to guard her in the Dornish mountains?

- when he left his wife Elia, a newborn Aegon and a daughter in the safety (?) of his father Aerys.

If he thought his new born child (Aegon), daughter and wife were safe in the company of Aerys, wouldn't he have left Lyanna with Aerys too?

And if Ned and Howland Reed found Lyanna+Rheagar's child, wouldn't he take the child back to Winterfell immediately. Why this sudden excursion to Starfall - a place that was Rhaegar's best friend's (Arthur Dayne) home. Who would kill a guy, and then go to his home to return his sword? Unless, there was something very important there.

[stu1987]

I always assumed that Ned and Ashara were good friends. Ned also returned what's his face's horse to Barbrey.

But yeah I am on board with the strangeness of going to Starfall instead of Winterfell. Perhaps so Ned could use going to Starfall as an excuse for going to collect his bastard.

I can't completely recall the timeline around ToJ, though. Would be good if someone could remind me.

[Eurybia]

- when he left his wife Elia, a newborn Aegon and a daughter in the safety (?) of his father Aerys.

If he thought his new born child (Aegon), daughter and wife were safe in the company of Aerys, wouldn't he have left Lyanna with Aerys too?

And if Ned and Howland Reed found Lyanna+Rheagar's child, wouldn't he take the child back to Winterfell immediately. Why this sudden excursion to Starfall - a place that was Rhaegar's best friend's (Arthur Dayne) home. Who would kill a guy, and then go to his home to return his sword? Unless, there was something very important there.

If Lyanna were alreay in KL, I think he likely would have left her there. But as far as we know, Lyanna wasn't ever in KL. They were in Dorne when the war broke out, hiding away in the tower. Hightower came to get Rhaegar, by which time Lyanna was far along in her pregnancy and also things were very out of control. The mountains of Dorne, hidden, with Kingsguard must have seemed pretty safe for her.

I think that Ned, to whom honor was paramount, would make such a trip. The logistics of transporting a baby and a body seem quite strange, honestly, but not only because of Starfall. He also (probably) stopped in KL?

Also, Starfall is on the coast. If he did need to get North with an infant and a body, maybe it was the closest place to catch a ship? (Westerosi geography and travel knowledge is not my strong suit.)

[Roadside Rose]

I always assumed that Ned and Ashara were good friends. Ned also returned what's his face's horse to Barbrey.

But yeah I am on board with the strangeness of going to Starfall instead of Winterfell. Perhaps so Ned could use going to Starfall as an excuse for going to collect his bastard.

I still find the whole situation too absurd. Everyone seems to assume that Lyanna gave birth in the Tower of Joy when Ned got there. And this is really absurd because why would anyone leave a pregnant woman alone in a tower with three guards? She would be better off at Kings Landing or Starfall where there were enough midwives and maids to look after her.

And why would Rhaegar name the 'Tower of Joy', that? Maybe, because his son/daughter was already born there before all these events happened.

Why is Lyanna at the Tower of Joy - is a huge '?' If she were pregnant she was better off at Starfall. If she were dying she was better off at Starfall. Unless, she wanted to hide the fact that she was dying.

[lady m]

Elia and her children weren't just left in KL with Aerys, they were kept there as hostages to insure the loyalty of Dorne.

[Roadside Rose]

Why would Aerys keep his own grandkids hostage? Or his son's wife?

Unless he was afraid of some plot against him.

Elia and her children weren't just left in KL with Aerys, they were kept there as hostages to insure the loyalty of Dorne.

[lady m]

Why would Aerys keep his own grandkids hostage? Or his son's wife?

Unless he was afraid of some plot against him.

Didn't you just answer your own question? He was incredibly paranoid, and thought his son might be plotting against him, which he was to some extent. Wouldn't logical allies for Rhaegar be his wife's family? Except she and their children aren't in his control. Rhaella and Viserys were sent to Dragonstone fairly early in the conflict to insure their safety. If the safety of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon were of paramount importance then they would have been sent to Dragonstone as well.

[stu1987]

Why would Aerys keep his own grandkids hostage? Or his son's wife?

Unless he was afraid of some plot against him.

Potential Dornish backlash against Rhaegar hooking up with Lyanna. Who else knows what Varys was whispering in his ear.

Also, Rhaegar may have sent Lyanna to the ToJ in order to then be moved on to the Daynes.

[caravaggio]

I agree (as I stated before) that it would be out of character for Ned to kill servants. However, what if Lyanna asked Ned to promise her that he would do everything in his power to keep the birth and parentage of Jon secret? He agonizes over that promise a lot so I think it is within the realm of possibility.

I also think it is possible Lyanna doesn't give birth in the ToJ, but at Starfall. Ned might have found her at ToJ, killed the Kingsguards, and taken her to Starfall (The closest place where he has someone he can trust) to give birth. That makes the red horse make a little more sense.... Ned put Lyanna on the horse to take her to Starfall, but she dies in childbirth.

[eggs]

^What red horse?

[caravaggio]

^What red horse?

Barbary Ryswell marries Lord William Dustin (Becoming Lady Dustin seen in ADwD) and gives him a wedding gift... the pride of her father's herd, a red steed. In ADwD she says (and it may all be an act for Theon's sake) that she hates Ned Stark because he brought back the horse instead of her husbands bones. Besides Lord Dustin, another Ryswell (IIRC her brother) dies at ToJ.

[eggs]

Well how does him moving Lyanna explain why he brought the horse back?

[tbc]

but don't a lot of people hold rhaegar in high esteem? selmy, jorah etc meaning people don't believe lyanna was kidnapped/raped.

this is one of my problems with R + L = J, surely half the kingdom would have put 2 and 2 together when ned comes back with a child after his sister dies after being away with her lover for months.

Who's going to question Robert and Tywin's account, after the KL sack?