Westerosi perceptions about Lyanna's death?

[caravaggio]

He takes the horse to transport Lyanna, not expecting her to die. If she had lived she could have ridden it back to Winterfell with him. She does die though, so he just brings it back to Lady Dustin.

If he isn't using the horse to transport someone, why bring it at all? If its not Lyanna on its back, why not put Lord Dustin's body on it?

I'm not sold on that idea, just saying it is possible. There are a lot of things that don't seem to mesh right concerning the ToJ, including the horse.

[Malgarroth]

He came with a child proclaiming it was his. Who would have doubt that? People always forget that Ned from ASOIAF isn`t Ned from RR. Ned from RR wasn`t famous lord known for honor, he was young boy, newly Lord. It`s normal to believe he sired a bastard. After all, as what GRRM said, there are quite the number of Brandon`s bastard in the North.

I always took a different viewpoint on this.

My belief is that Ned was held in such high esteem that nobody would consider that he was lying, much less betraying the trust of a man he saw as a brother.

That and he did the honorable thing by bringing his "bastard" to Winterfell.

[Mladen]

I always took a different viewpoint on this.

My belief is that Ned was held in such high esteem that nobody would consider that he was lying, much less betraying the trust of a man he saw as a brother.

That and he did the honorable thing by bringing his "bastard" to Winterfell.

He was held in high esteem prior to his killing, not when he was just a boy. And, Ned was just young lord raised in Eyrie. People in th North didn`t know him. He did the right thing, but doubting that he might have sired a bastard in the war means they had to know him well, and they didn`t.

[eggs]

He takes the horse to transport Lyanna, not expecting her to die. If she had lived she could have ridden it back to Winterfell with him. She does die though, so he just brings it back to Lady Dustin.

If he isn't using the horse to transport someone, why bring it at all? If its not Lyanna on its back, why not put Lord Dustin's body on it?

I'm not sold on that idea, just saying it is possible. There are a lot of things that don't seem to mesh right concerning the ToJ, including the horse.

well I never believed that Ned buried everyone at the tower cause it was too much trouble to send them home. I think he brought back the horse because it was Dustin's and it was nice and because he didn't bring the body.

[Malgarroth]

He was held in high esteem prior to his killing, not when he was just a boy. And, Ned was just young lord raised in Eyrie. People in th North didn`t know him. He did the right thing, but doubting that he might have sired a bastard in the war means they had to know him well, and they didn`t.

Well then consider my mind changed for the most part, except that at the time of Jon's birth Ned had fought and won the Rebellion with Robert. Surely this would have been a major part of his reputation being built up as this noble honorable lord.

[Mladen]

Well then consider my mind changed for the most part, except that at the time of Jon's birth Ned had fought and won the Rebellion with Robert. Surely this would have been a major part of his reputation being built up as this noble honorable lord.

Honor isn`t something you gain only in the time of war. Ned had 14 long years to establish himself as honorable man and lord. But I am saying that no one would ever doubt he procreated a bastard. As we know, Brandon got quite the few of them.

[Roadside Rose]

Why does the birth of Jon Snow have to be so secretive from entire Westeros?

Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna were his actual parents.

I can imagine the Starks would not like the idea of Lyanna having a child with Rhaegar, but they would definitely not kill the child.

Then there is Robert Baratheon, but knowing the number of bastard children he has, I doubt that he would kill the child too. He could kill Rhaegar but I doubt that he would intend harm to Lyanna's son.

Then there is Aerys. For some reason, I think he was the biggest threat to the child, else Rhaegar would have left the child with Aerys. Maybe it is related to some prophecy that is yet to be known.

So many characters have bastard children, if Rhaegar had one I don't think it should have spelled doom to anyone. Unless, there was some real threat to someone's power.

[Mladen]

Why does the birth of Jon Snow have to be so secretive from entire Westeros?

Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna were his actual parents.

I can imagine the Starks would not like the idea of Lyanna having a child with Rhaegar, but they would definitely not kill the child.

Then there is Robert Baratheon, but knowing the number of bastard children he has, I doubt that he would kill the child too. He could kill Rhaegar but I doubt that he would intend harm to Lyanna's son.

Then there is Aerys. For some reason, I think he was the biggest threat to the child, else Rhaegar would have left the child with Aerys. Maybe it is related to some prophecy that is yet to be known.

So many characters have bastard children, if Rhaegar had one I don't think it should have spelled doom to anyone. Unless, there was some real threat to someone's power.

First. do you remember what happen to Aegon and Rhaenys?

And, second, there is a great chance, that Jon was indeed legitimate child, so of course he needed to be hidden.

[Roadside Rose]

First. do you remember what happen to Aegon and Rhaenys?

And, second, there is a great chance, that Jon was indeed legitimate child, so of course he needed to be hidden.

Aegon and Rhaenys were not nephews of Eddard Stark. I doubt Lyanna's son would reach the same fate.

[Eurybia]

I think Robert outright says he'll kill any Targaryen he can. The son of his dishonored and dead fiancée and the man who kidnapped and raped her (in Bob's POV)? I could totally see him killing baby Jon.

[Narea]

I still find the whole situation too absurd. Everyone seems to assume that Lyanna gave birth in the Tower of Joy when Ned got there. And this is really absurd because why would anyone leave a pregnant woman alone in a tower with three guards? She would be better off at Kings Landing or Starfall where there were enough midwives and maids to look after her.

And why would Rhaegar name the 'Tower of Joy', that? Maybe, because his son/daughter was already born there before all these events happened.

Why is Lyanna at the Tower of Joy - is a huge '?' If she were pregnant she was better off at Starfall. If she were dying she was better off at Starfall. Unless, she wanted to hide the fact that she was dying.

Eh... There is such a thing as high-risk pregnancy. If Lyanna had cramps or early signs of miscarriage or even actually started to miscarry, then she would have to spend the pregnancy on bed-rest. Any attempt to transport her on horse would mean the end of the pregnancy and they apparently didn't have a wheelhouse handy.

Also, Lyanna wasn't transported to ToJ after she fell pregnant. Rhaegar took her there and they lived in love and joy (hence the name) until the day Hightower came to get Rhaegar. At that point it wouldn't be smart to transport her anywhere as the realm was at war. And btw, did you notice that Starfall isn't really all that close to ToJ ? There is a lot of mountains between them. That's a difficult journey at the best of times.

Aegon and Rhaenys were not nephews of Eddard Stark. I doubt Lyanna's son would reach the same fate.

You mean the living, breathing proof of the fact that Robert's beloved idolized Lyanna didn't love him ??? If Jon were lucky he would have ended up a reviled hostage...if not, he'd have followed Aegon's fate.

[Mladen]

Aegon and Rhaenys were not nephews of Eddard Stark. I doubt Lyanna's son would reach the same fate.

My dear, naive friend. Jon would reach exactly the same thing, or possibly the worst if he is legitimized through wedding of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Robert would feel betrayed by the woman he loved, and the fact boy is Ned`s nephew wouldn`t have changed the things

[caravaggio]

Aegon and Rhaenys were not nephews of Eddard Stark. I doubt Lyanna's son would reach the same fate.

Aerys wouldn't care about Jon because he was already dead.

Robert would want to kill any Targaryen, especially Jon. If Jon is legitimate then his claim to the throne would be better than Robert's. Even if he was a bastard or even just rumored to be related to Rhaegar in some way Robert would see him as a potential person for those disloyal to him to rally around.

We can infer that Robert was pleased that Tywin had Rhaenys and baby Aegon brutally killed. He would have felt no different, perhaps better about killing Jon who (in his mind) was the product of the rape of his beloved.

[Ygrain]

Something does not add up. Why would Rhaegar leave a pregnant Lyanna with only three Kingsguard to guard her in the Dornish mountains?

- when he left his wife Elia, a newborn Aegon and a daughter in the safety (?) of his father Aerys.

If he thought his new born child (Aegon), daughter and wife were safe in the company of Aerys, wouldn't he have left Lyanna with Aerys too?

And if Ned and Howland Reed found Lyanna+Rheagar's child, wouldn't he take the child back to Winterfell immediately. Why this sudden excursion to Starfall - a place that was Rhaegar's best friend's (Arthur Dayne) home. Who would kill a guy, and then go to his home to return his sword? Unless, there was something very important there.

I still find the whole situation too absurd. Everyone seems to assume that Lyanna gave birth in the Tower of Joy when Ned got there. And this is really absurd because why would anyone leave a pregnant woman alone in a tower with three guards? She would be better off at Kings Landing or Starfall where there were enough midwives and maids to look after her.

And why would Rhaegar name the 'Tower of Joy', that? Maybe, because his son/daughter was already born there before all these events happened.

Why is Lyanna at the Tower of Joy - is a huge '?' If she were pregnant she was better off at Starfall. If she were dying she was better off at Starfall. Unless, she wanted to hide the fact that she was dying.

Lyanna is the sister and ex-betrothed of the two guys who lead the rebellion against Aerys, and on top of it the mistress/wife of his mistrusted son. It is not a good idea to let her anywhere near Aerys, or anywhere where someone might spread word of her.

Why does the birth of Jon Snow have to be so secretive from entire Westeros?

Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna were his actual parents.

I can imagine the Starks would not like the idea of Lyanna having a child with Rhaegar, but they would definitely not kill the child.

Then there is Robert Baratheon, but knowing the number of bastard children he has, I doubt that he would kill the child too. He could kill Rhaegar but I doubt that he would intend harm to Lyanna's son.

Then there is Aerys. For some reason, I think he was the biggest threat to the child, else Rhaegar would have left the child with Aerys. Maybe it is related to some prophecy that is yet to be known.

So many characters have bastard children, if Rhaegar had one I don't think it should have spelled doom to anyone. Unless, there was some real threat to someone's power.

Oh, Robert definiely wouldn't kill Jon... himself. He would just turn away and let Tywin arrange that.

[ShinD]

I agree that it's extremely fishy that nobody ever questions the events at the ToJ.

We know from Ned POV that Lyanna died "in a bed of blood", so we can assume she died giving birth. We have that info, but no character in the book has it apart from Reed.

So it's REALLY wierd that nobody questions why the lord commander of the Kingsguard and the best knight in Westeros would stay out of the war to defend a dying girl that nobody had any reason to harm. Three knights of the kingsguard, 5 lords and a highborn lady died in a desert for no apparent reason, and nobody asks why ... plot device much ?

[eggs]

I agree that it's extremely fishy that nobody ever questions the events at the ToJ. We know from Ned POV that Lyanna died "in a bed of blood", so we can assume she died giving birth. We have that info, but no character in the book has it apart from Reed. So it's REALLY wierd that nobody questions why the lord commander of the Kingsguard and the best knight in Westeros would stay out of the war to defend a dying girl that nobody had any reason to harm. Three knights of the kingsguard, 5 lords and a highborn lady died in a desert for no apparent reason, and nobody asks why ... plot device much ?

why should it be questioned? Rhaegar took Lyanna, locked her away and put gaurds on her. Ned came with his crew to take her back. They fought, and nine died including Lyanna. Whats fishy?

[ShinD]

Why would you need 3 of the best knights in the kingdom to guard a door when war is raging ?

Why would anyone want to harm Lyanna, if they were there to protect her ?

Ned doesn't understand why Dayne&co are at the ToJ when he first confront them.

But no one else think it's wierd that about half of the kingsguard stayed in a desert while their king and prince were killed.

[Ygrain]

Lyanna was a single pregnant woman, with no more than a handful of servants, in a country ravaged by war, at the mercy of anyoutlaw or marauder who might venture there. Somehow, the idea of three superb swordsmen assigned to her protection seems rather plausible.

If the rest of Westeros go by the kidnapping version, their take would be that Rhaegar assigned his bodyguards to guard the mistress that he got himself. The only thing that Ned needs to do so that there is no suspicion is to claim that the KG were cut off any communication channels and didn't know about the Sack of KL when he arrived, because in that case they have a plausible explanation why they stayed at ToJ (Rhaegar's orders, while the remaining KG did the duty to guard the king). Similarly, Ned can claim that Lyanna died of fever and leave out the bed of blood, and what most of the Westeros know is that his sister died of some disease while in the South while Lord Eddard has his bastard in his castle up North.